Strong Gusty Headwind + Me = Too Much Float - HOW TO IMPROVE?

rkiefer2

rkiefer2

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Waukesha, WI
Display Name
Display name:
rkiefer2
The other day I was landing with winds straight up the runway 18G25kts flying a Cessna 172. Went to flare and floated quite a bit, much longer than I would have liked and struggled to prevent her from ballooning up. The landing ended smoothly, but I would like to know what I should have done differently. I didnt go full flaps and added 5kts to my approach speed to account for the gusts/strong headwind

Thoughts?


Configuration:
  • Flaps 20 degrees (30 degree restriction on plane for 180HP motor)
  • Approach speed @ threshold 70kts (added 5kts for gusts, normally 65kts)
 
You done good. Keep flying it until it is on the ground and stopped. That's part of flying in gusty conditions. Remember, you might be floating for a longer time than usual, but that wind is also slowing you down and reducing your rollout. Make sure you are handy with the throttle in case the wind dies down suddenly.
 
Airspeed doesn't equal ground speed. Floated for a longer time than usual, or distance? Sounds like you did well. Getting pattern work done on windy days is some of the most fun there is, in my opinion. Landing is really the only hard part about flying. Airplanes want to fly. Making them gracefully give up takes talent.
 
I'll take the internet hit on this one... 18G25 right down the centerline? I'd probably be no flaps and normal approach speed.
 
rkiefer2 said:
The other day I was landing with winds straight up the runway 18G25kts flying a Cessna 172. Went to flare and floated quite a bit, much longer than I would have liked and struggled to prevent her from ballooning up. The landing ended smoothly, but I would like to know what I should have done differently. I didnt go full flaps and added 5kts to my approach speed to account for the gusts/strong headwind
Click to expand...

Sounds like you did things pretty good! I've read conflicting things about flap use on gusty days, but I've also kept them at a lower setting on windy days and kept the speed up like you did. As far as float, since you have the headwind your groundspeed will be less, so it feels like a while to bleed the speed off but by the time you touch down you may only be doing 30-40 knots GS. But as someone else said, the best practice is to up with an instructor on windy days and just keep doing those landings until they feel second nature

One thing I learned on windy days, don't be afraid to go around and don't forget to keep the controls in the correct orientation on rollout
 
rkiefer2 said:
Flaps 20 degrees (30 degree restriction on plane for 180HP motor)
Click to expand...
At the risk of thread drift, does anyone have a quick answer why this limitation exists? The plane I usually rent has the same 180 conversion and flap limit. I can't imagine the extra 20 hp poses a risk to the flaps at full extension and feel like it might have more to do with downwash on the horizontal stab? I've asked around and never gotten an answer I was happy with

Ultimately never really felt the 172 needed 40 degree, but's a separate topic :)
 
Trim stalls. The additional HP makes for a crazy deck angle when you apply full power at full flaps. I never had a problem pushing the yoke forward but I'm a big guy. Small people would be in trouble. Have an instructor demonstrate it with you.

I always land with full flaps.
 
Last edited:
Ravioli said:
I'll take the internet hit on this one... 18G25 right down the centerline? I'd probably be no flaps and normal approach speed.
Click to expand...

Why? At a "normal approach speed" with flaps, you have more drag available to go from "flying" to "no longer flying" quicker, and you're slower at touchdown meaning a much greater chance of getting stopped if you do lose directional control.

Speeding up on the throttle control, if a gust turns slow, and going around if needed, will serve better than flying faster.

But what do you think speed will buy you? I'm curious.
 
Stewartb said:
Trim stalls.
Click to expand...

That's along the lines of what I was assuming. Can't practice it in the plane I rent since there's a physical steel plate blocking the lowest flap setting, but it makes sense conceptually, thanks!
 
Tantalum said:
At the risk of thread drift, does anyone have a quick answer why this limitation exists? The plane I usually rent has the same 180 conversion and flap limit. I can't imagine the extra 20 hp poses a risk to the flaps at full extension and feel like it might have more to do with downwash on the horizontal stab? I've asked around and never gotten an answer I was happy with
Click to expand...

The flap restriction isn't due to the 180 HP change. It's due to the increased gross weight that is usually done along with the HP increase. At the higher weight, the plane can't meet the required climb rate during a go around with 40 degree flaps. By limiting flaps to 30 degrees, it meets the requirement.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
It's due to the increased gross weight that is usually done along with the HP increase. At the higher weight, the plane can't meet the required climb rate during a go around with 40 degree flaps. By limiting flaps to 30 degrees, it meets the requirement.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I hadn't thought about the GW increase, but this also makes sense
 
Ravioli said:
I'll take the internet hit on this one... 18G25 right down the centerline? I'd probably be no flaps and normal approach speed.
Click to expand...

Curious why no flaps? I would go full flaps and a few knots faster.
 
I'm still working on flying during windier days as well. I add half the gust factor for a little extra airspeed and still use the full 30 degrees of flaps. I also keep the throttle cracked open which seems to help with control as well.
 
OkieAviator said:
Curious why no flaps? I would go full flaps and a few knots faster.
Click to expand...
As would I.

More to the point, that's what I did a few days ago. Full flaps and half the gust factor. And beware that "right down the runway" can give you a bit of a crosswind in either direction.

Cessna flaps add a lot of drag between 20 and 30 deg. That and your extra 5 knots are why you floated.
 
Every landing is different because every landing condition is different. As long as you let the plane fly until it wants to stop flying you will be doing it right.
 
OP did fine. Practice is only thing that will make you better. I have noticed that with gusty conditions I tend to want to look down at the ground a little more and I have to fight that urge. I can hear my CFI... "look at the end of the runway".

Be on your toes as the winds change. Get into ground effect and have quick reflexes to finesse it down. Don't force it.
 
I'm pretty much in the use less flaps when the wind is howlin crowd, but after reading some of the above I may think about it some more
 
maybe I'm following bad advice, but I was told half or no flaps + 1/2 gust factor on approach speed by my CFI. I just ride it out until she lands. I have had an instance or two where a gust would kick in and actually lift my plane back off the runway. Gotta remember to fly it until you're really landed!
 
Maybe a gusty wind landing camp needs to be developed. I'm thinking LAR would be a good site. No distractions and plenty of wind somewhere within a hundred miles or so.

Or maybe SAF for the upscale food. Both sites have nice crosswind runways so studs can be properly abused.
 
Long wide runways allow you to be sloppy. Make the target smaller. After all, your ground speed is slower than normal so it should be simple. When you get that down make the target smaller. That'll make you improve.
 
An airplane will always float if you come in with too much speed. So long as you have adequate runway the landing can still work, just let it fly along horizontally above the runway until it kills off the excessive speed. With winds like that, no pilot can make perfect landings, there is actually turbulence in the flare jostling the plane around. Keep it straight, lean into the wind, use those rudders and land as smoothly as possible. If its hard to put the yoke into the wind it is because you are tensed up (white knuckle landing). Common occurance even with good pilots. Try and relax.
 
Flaring into a gusty wind makes no sense. Drive it on. Go fetch that instructor to show you how.
 
Stewartb said:
Flaring into a gusty wind makes no sense. Drive it on. Go fetch that instructor to show you how.
Click to expand...
That's a whole lot easier in a tailwheel....

It does make sense to land a LITTLE flat in a tricycle. But never, ever, ever on the nosewheel.

And forget about squeaking it on. A slightly firm landing on the mains with minimal side load is entirely appropriate. Gusty winds are not the time to practice finesse.
 
The AOA for "driving it on" would not threaten a nose wheel. Even an oversized one, like the one I used to have. ;-)

Floatplane pilots are taught glassy water landings. Establish a 500' per minute descent and look forward. Forget about trying to see the landing surface. Let the plane fly on. Same same for windy days. Trim for pitch/airspeed, throttle controls rate of descent, and let the ground get in the way. The more you do it the better you get at spot control.
 
With glassy water landings in a floatplane, I was taught to put the plane in slowflight, nose up, then let it descend. That way, you land nose up. You don't know when you are going to hit, I mean land. As time goes by add a little power (to retard your descent). If you don't bounce, you did it right :) (not that Im an expert)
 
Last edited:
I fly very similar conditions Saturday night. It was by far the bumpiest night flight I've had.

I was also in a C172 landing with 20 degrees flaps. My short final was just a bit quicker IAS than I normally fly for the gusts. On my first landing we had some LLWS and I developed a pretty good sink just before the threshold. As I got in ground effect a balooned a bit but held it off. Just before the mains touched down I goosed the power about 50 rpm. Landed a little long but was happy. I continued to fly that profile for the rest of my landings knowing that I'd have to finesse some power management towards the end.
 
I came back from Sun N Fun yesterday afternoon and landed at KPWA (Wiley Post, in Oklahoma City) with wind 180 at 21 G 30. That is right down the runway.

In a 182, I landed with full flaps (30 deg) like I do every time. Normally 65 knots on final, bumped up to 70 for the gust spread. Flare and landing were with minimal float, and touching down at about 30 knots GS made for a very short landing roll.

I don't understand the theory of not using full flaps when it's windy.
 
I see no reason to use decreased flap extension when the wind is straight down the runway, regardless of strength. The idea of reduced flaps is intended for increased directional control in strong crosswinds, though some pilots disagree with that technique as well.
 
MAKG1 said:
As would I.

More to the point, that's what I did a few days ago. Full flaps and half the gust factor. And beware that "right down the runway" can give you a bit of a crosswind in either direction.

Cessna flaps add a lot of drag between 20 and 30 deg. That and your extra 5 knots are why you floated.
Click to expand...

Meh, I disagree with this approach. I'm more inclined to do as @dmspilot suggested.

In any gusty conditions, I either do a no flaps or one flaps, that's it. More flaps = more drag, sure. But it also = more surface area, which (with a proper gust) can seriously mess your approach up and lead to ballooning. Strong gusts? Leave flaps up, or AT MOST, one notch..but imo even that is too much.
 
Good discussion. I always use full flaps, but I'll try to address the logic of using less. With less flaps, you will be at a higher pitch attitude (less nose down) than with full flaps. You can "drive it on" (we're talking tricycle LG here) at a higher margin above stall, retaining better control effectiveness just prior to touchdown. On a really gusty day, especially with a crosswind, I would consider less than full flaps. More than 18G25. The lower GS that full flaps provide is less important with a strong headwind component, as others have noted.
 
denverpilot said:
But what do you think speed will buy you? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

Some people think it buys them rudder authority ... unfortunately, they lose a lot of useable runway in the tradeoff.

RussR said:
I don't understand the theory of not using full flaps when it's windy.
Click to expand...

CFI's used to be nervous with the "ole barn door" 172's that'd do 40* flaps ... add that flap amount with a LLWS and little to no gust factor on the throttle and the go around option starts looking real ugly.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, flaps on a Tiger don't do much other than approach angle (stall speed is similar 10 to 20 to 30 degrees flaps - only about a 2-3 knot difference if you check the POH). My area is windy pretty much all the time ... you get used to it and land in all flap / no flap configurations - for my plane, not much difference. My rotations occur at 60 mph and stall in the flare in all configurations is about that as well.

EDIT: If you have to land in high wind situations a lot, the Tiger rudder is HUGE and can handle massive crosswind components. I've done 30-33k direct 90* and still had rudder authority. Ron Levy landed one at 40, but I'm not going up that high.
 
This thread is another reason why I love randomly browsing PoA. I've been asked to be a CFI for a club this summer - they've just purchased a 172 with the 180HP conversion. Super helpful info here, thanks.
 
Stewartb said:
Floatplane pilots are taught glassy water landings. Establish a 500' per minute descent and look forward. Forget about trying to see the landing surface. Let the plane fly on. Same same for windy days.
Click to expand...

I get the point you are trying to make, but 500FPM may be a little high!
 
Fly it on to the mains. If you get low enough with the nose up the wheels will touch first. A little more speed for rudder authority and less flaps for less getting knocked around the gusts. Or do a carrier landing and just plant the sucker.
 
I land with 10 degree flaps and about 75 kts (normally 70) in 172 SP under gusty conditions, which is pretty common here. I do balloon in most of my landings... gusty or not :d:d .. I think the tower guys now call me balloon king
 
After several years in my little taildragger I have come to a point where I don't fool with flaps very often, gusts of no gusts. My first Mooney instructor had me landing with full flaps. I flew with a different Mooney instructor in gusty and rough air and he had me landing and taking off with no flaps. Still experimenting with flaps in the Mooney, only because slower on the runway might be easier on tires and landing gear.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top