Strike 2 for AOPA on ramp fees.

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https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ion-of-grant-assurances-on-pilot-self-service

While I do not like paying user fees like most pilots, I believe AOPA is smoking crack with their 2 decade fight with Signature Flight Support.

Like it or not, Signature’s business model is servicing transient aircraft. The airports are defending Signature because the airport depends on the high rent revenue bid by Signature.

AOPA is also on crack for their free public ramp nonsense. AOPA knows there is no funding to build, maintain, service or secure free ramps at high volume airports.
 
I have to say - we're just moving over to Signature FBOs, they are very good with based airplanes.
 
I think what AOPA is fighting is the use of public funds to build infrastructure that a private entity makes a profit by charging to use it.

A municipal airport builds a ramp with public funds, that ramp should be accessible to the public, first come, first served.

Kinda like the problem with highways created with public funds and even eminent domain, selling off lanes of the highway to private for-profit toll road companies.

You can debate a ramp fee increase at a municipal airport board meeting and even vote out the board members if they’ve lost their minds. You can’t vote away a Signature who has a sweetheart deal with the same board for use of public paid for ramp space.

Signature is sane at a lot of airports and keeps their fees “reasonable” but at some, they’re milking the public trough pretty hard.

If Signature wants to make a deal with the airport to not only collect the fees but also pay for all ramp space and maintains it themselves at their own cost, that’s not as big a problem as using the public funded ramp for their fees.

It’s either public infrastructure or it’s private. Anything co-mingled just gives you Amtrak or USPS style messes to figure out.

Some folks should eyeball their airport boards a little harder and seriously vote them out (where possible and “Airport Manager” isn’t an appointed job with no real public accountability) when they make seeetheart deals with FBOs to use public built infrastructure for direct fee private profit.

But it’s the American way. Private gains, socialized losses. Signature can make deals and effectively lock out competition at many airports where there’s no way another FBO could build and compete.

Costs them very little, make a deal with the airport as someone mentioned above that they’ll pay higher rents, and then charge anything that touches the ramp they didn’t pay for and didn’t build whatever fees they want to, in order to make those higher rent payments.

It’s an ingenious business model if nothing else.

Sometimes they’re benign and sometimes they’re charging rates that effectively lock out the low end of GA.

It’s not really new, though. Everyone around here knows you don’t fly a small GA airplane to Aspen in ski season unless you have more money for the ramp fees than it would take to fill your airplane with fuel. “Only rich jet setters truly welcome on our ramp in ski season” has been the KASE motto for decades. And they weren’t Signature.

But I can see AOPA’s point in it, even if they’re losing in the courtroom to an FAA not interested in protecting the public money invested in airports for the entire aviation public’s use.

If nothing else at least the lawsuits let us know where FAA stands on serving everyone equally. They’re happily paying their lawyers to back the private business interests, and not the public interest, by hiding behind the “whatever the local airport authority wants” excuse and making it a “local matter”.

I’m no fan of government debt spending or the fake taxes that pretend to pay the entire bill for all those loans, but if you’re going to take over something and call it public infrastructure then defend it as such.

Otherwise make the airport send the money back and spend it on airports who want to serve the entire public, not a sub-set that can afford some private for-profit company’s arbitrary fees designed to be used as bribes to the local airport authority.

Same goes for hangars and that battle has been going on for ages. If public funds for aviation were spent on the hangars, they weren’t built for the airport authority to rent them out as storage lockers for non-aviation junk.

I’m completely fine if Signature wants to pay for their own pavement privately and charge whatever they want to pay for it. There’s airports that would effectively lock out lower levels of GA doing that, if they don’t have a competing FBO and only have one.

I think they could use that as a metric somehow too... less public runway money for those airports.

But that isn’t how we roll in modern America. Build the airport with public debt and then chase the photographers off of public airport land so the jet set can have their “privacy” on a public purchased ramp.

That’s just the reality of it these days. AOPA is losing because 70% currently live paycheck to paycheck and don’t want taxes to rise to cover even inflation, let alone pay down the public debt. Public infrastructure of the past can’t be afforded, so sell it off or lease it to the highest private bidder.

Toll roads, FBO ramps, launch facilities, whatever... this is how the fire sale looks. Change of ownership hidden in sweetheart deals and exorbitant fees paid to private entities to cover the upkeep on infrastructure we all once agreed were worth calling “public”.

Small airports continue to hang on by a thread. FedGov doesn’t have the funds nor the agreement from the broke Citizenry to properly maintain them as fully public entities anymore.

Was nice while it lasted. Signature or whoever wants them, owns the profits from the ramps now. As long as they give the broke counties, cities, and other municipal type entities a cut of the action, because they’re all broke too, they get to charge what they please.

The fiscal chickens on the massive public debt come home to roost on the margins first. Aviation is seen as capable of paying its own way because the public thinks private jets mean multi-gazillionaires are the only people who use airports.

And when they’re 70% hand to mouth, they don’t have any aspirations of heading to the airport to learn to fly, ever. They want other government programs funded WAY before airports. Heck they’d even settle for getting that toll lane back before they’d pay for repaving an airport ramp, given the option.
 
More airports should adopt policy of No-charge ramp fee for non-commercial GA flights less than 6,500 lbs. A number of airports used to so this even if there's a 4 hour time limit.
 
I think what AOPA is fighting is the use of public funds to build infrastructure that a private entity makes a profit by charging to use it.

A municipal airport builds a ramp with public funds, that ramp should be accessible to the public, first come, first served.

Kinda like the problem with highways created with public funds and even eminent domain, selling off lanes of the highway to private for-profit toll road companies.

You can debate a ramp fee increase at a municipal airport board meeting and even vote out the board members if they’ve lost their minds. You can’t vote away a Signature who has a sweetheart deal with the same board for use of public paid for ramp space.

Signature is sane at a lot of airports and keeps their fees “reasonable” but at some, they’re milking the public trough pretty hard.

If Signature wants to make a deal with the airport to not only collect the fees but also pay for all ramp space and maintains it themselves at their own cost, that’s not as big a problem as using the public funded ramp for their fees.

It’s either public infrastructure or it’s private. Anything co-mingled just gives you Amtrak or USPS style messes to figure out.

Some folks should eyeball their airport boards a little harder and seriously vote them out (where possible and “Airport Manager” isn’t an appointed job with no real public accountability) when they make seeetheart deals with FBOs to use public built infrastructure for direct fee private profit.

But it’s the American way. Private gains, socialized losses. Signature can make deals and effectively lock out competition at many airports where there’s no way another FBO could build and compete.

Costs them very little, make a deal with the airport as someone mentioned above that they’ll pay higher rents, and then charge anything that touches the ramp they didn’t pay for and didn’t build whatever fees they want to, in order to make those higher rent payments.

It’s an ingenious business model if nothing else.

Sometimes they’re benign and sometimes they’re charging rates that effectively lock out the low end of GA.

It’s not really new, though. Everyone around here knows you don’t fly a small GA airplane to Aspen in ski season unless you have more money for the ramp fees than it would take to fill your airplane with fuel. “Only rich jet setters truly welcome on our ramp in ski season” has been the KASE motto for decades. And they weren’t Signature.

But I can see AOPA’s point in it, even if they’re losing in the courtroom to an FAA not interested in protecting the public money invested in airports for the entire aviation public’s use.

If nothing else at least the lawsuits let us know where FAA stands on serving everyone equally. They’re happily paying their lawyers to back the private business interests, and not the public interest, by hiding behind the “whatever the local airport authority wants” excuse and making it a “local matter”.

I’m no fan of government debt spending or the fake taxes that pretend to pay the entire bill for all those loans, but if you’re going to take over something and call it public infrastructure then defend it as such.

Otherwise make the airport send the money back and spend it on airports who want to serve the entire public, not a sub-set that can afford some private for-profit company’s arbitrary fees designed to be used as bribes to the local airport authority.

Same goes for hangars and that battle has been going on for ages. If public funds for aviation were spent on the hangars, they weren’t built for the airport authority to rent them out as storage lockers for non-aviation junk.

I’m completely fine if Signature wants to pay for their own pavement privately and charge whatever they want to pay for it. There’s airports that would effectively lock out lower levels of GA doing that, if they don’t have a competing FBO and only have one.

I think they could use that as a metric somehow too... less public runway money for those airports.

But that isn’t how we roll in modern America. Build the airport with public debt and then chase the photographers off of public airport land so the jet set can have their “privacy” on a public purchased ramp.

That’s just the reality of it these days. AOPA is losing because 70% currently live paycheck to paycheck and don’t want taxes to rise to cover even inflation, let alone pay down the public debt. Public infrastructure of the past can’t be afforded, so sell it off or lease it to the highest private bidder.

Toll roads, FBO ramps, launch facilities, whatever... this is how the fire sale looks. Change of ownership hidden in sweetheart deals and exorbitant fees paid to private entities to cover the upkeep on infrastructure we all once agreed were worth calling “public”.

Small airports continue to hang on by a thread. FedGov doesn’t have the funds nor the agreement from the broke Citizenry to properly maintain them as fully public entities anymore.

Was nice while it lasted. Signature or whoever wants them, owns the profits from the ramps now. As long as they give the broke counties, cities, and other municipal type entities a cut of the action, because they’re all broke too, they get to charge what they please.

The fiscal chickens on the massive public debt come home to roost on the margins first. Aviation is seen as capable of paying its own way because the public thinks private jets mean multi-gazillionaires are the only people who use airports.

And when they’re 70% hand to mouth, they don’t have any aspirations of heading to the airport to learn to fly, ever. They want other government programs funded WAY before airports. Heck they’d even settle for getting that toll lane back before they’d pay for repaving an airport ramp, given the option.


Well stated.
 
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ion-of-grant-assurances-on-pilot-self-service

While I do not like paying user fees like most pilots, I believe AOPA is smoking crack with their 2 decade fight with Signature Flight Support.

Like it or not, Signature’s business model is servicing transient aircraft. The airports are defending Signature because the airport depends on the high rent revenue bid by Signature.

AOPA is also on crack for their free public ramp nonsense. AOPA knows there is no funding to build, maintain, service or secure free ramps at high volume airports.
Don't you work at an FBO? I think you might be biased.
 
AOPA needs to stop acting all emotional and do research before they go tilting at windmills.

The AVL defeat was no surprise. They tried to make a case against Signature price gouging without bothering to note that AVL fuel and fees were sky high there when Landmark had it.

AOPA is starting to look like TIGHAR. Hit members up for donations and then waste it on bloated lost causes.
 
There is a lot more behind the scenes than just "Signature/Atlantic/Millionair making deals with the City". More like the City is begging someone to come in, put a huge investment in the airport and meet airport minimum standards that are required by the FAA. And after their lease is up, the City has the option to take the building they built. The risk to an FBO is huge, and I'm sure even larger at high price destinations. The FBO business carries a lot of risk and liability, that's what you're paying for.
 
Don't you work at an FBO? I think you might be biased.

I didn't know that, but I was about to respond "Let me guess, you work for Signature." So I guess my instincts were correct. I used to run the Falcon Jet Ramp at TEB. We never charged small GA aircraft for just parking for the day. Our fees were based on any amenities they may use while there, ie; using a crew car, storing in a hangar, battery charge, or whatever. Our money was in the Corporate traffic. Signature moved in next door and I watched their operation. What a bunch of low-life scumbags... they would send their line guys out to meet aircraft coming to my ramp and marshal them into theirs. Then I'd have to send the limos (that were poised on my ramp) over to theirs to pick up the passengers, then send my guys over there to retrieve the airplane... GIANT PITA! Talking to them about it fell on deaf ears... JERKS!!!
 
if the negotiate a lease without A first-refusal-right-clause for renewal, that's just bad business...
It's more common than you think, and although I've never seen it happen it's always a possibility. If the City doesn't renew the lease then the company has to either 1. Move the buildings or 2. sell them without a lease attached. Either option loses a lot of $$$ once that lease is up.
 
There is a lot more behind the scenes than just "Signature/Atlantic/Millionair making deals with the City". More like the City is begging someone to come in, put a huge investment in the airport and meet airport minimum standards that are required by the FAA. And after their lease is up, the City has the option to take the building they built. The risk to an FBO is huge, and I'm sure even larger at high price destinations. The FBO business carries a lot of risk and liability, that's what you're paying for.

While I don't doubt that's part of there story (capital risk is an important part of business planning), it is amazing how many places the same FBO company will have significantly lower prices where there are two or more FBOs on the field and/or public access not requiring transients to use the FBO's services. Is the risk somehow magically lower at those locations?

And regardless of whether the fees are somehow justified by the risk, why are the FBOs not transparent about what the fees are? I use Atlantic at Orlando Executive (KORL) as the flying club I'm in has a standing deal with them for fuel and space. It's been in place since Showalter owned the FBO. But I cannot find out what the transient fees are without calling the FBO or actually scheduling a visit on the web site. Why?

John
 
While I don't doubt that's part of there story (capital risk is an important part of business planning), it is amazing how many places the same FBO company will have significantly lower prices where there are two or more FBOs on the field and/or public access not requiring transients to use the FBO's services. Is the risk somehow magically lower at those locations?
Competition helps keep things in check sometimes, but not always.

When SDL had Signature and Landmark both on the field, it didn’t matter. You were gonna pay $8/gallon no matter who you used.

IAD is the same way.
 
Where is that?

They are even worse with based aircraft here at ORF than Landmark was.

Same at FTY. Signature bought some FBO at FTY that a friend was using with monthly ramp parking. After Signature bought them out he had to have something like $2 million liability on his car to drive on the ramp. :eek: He switched to Hill Aircraft and no such requirement. Same ramp space, maybe a different row. :rolleyes:

We were wondering if somebody that Signature let on the ramp hit a jet with their vehicle.
 
Not sure what their beef is with signature or really that it even makes sense, charge me too much as a private business and you just don’t get my business

That said paying landing fees to a airport built with my tax dollars is BS, there should be a place for transient GA planes without having to pay fees for the airport that our tax dollars built. Personally to me that smells like we need to start firing government workers as they don’t understand their station in America.
 
It's more common than you think, and although I've never seen it happen it's always a possibility. If the City doesn't renew the lease then the company has to either 1. Move the buildings or 2. sell them without a lease attached. Either option loses a lot of $$$ once that lease is up.

Huh? You've never seen it happen but its a possibility? I said it was bad business not to predict and protect yourself from such a possibility... how have you added to the debate with that statement?
 
Huh? You've never seen it happen but its a possibility? I said it was bad business not to predict and protect yourself from such a possibility... how have you added to the debate with that statement?
If you want assurance that when your lease is up, don't get into the FBO business. That's my argument. Just because I've never seen an FBO's building get turned into city property doesn't mean it can't happen at lease expiration. Airport leases are complicated. I encourage you to go to your local airport board meetings.. it is eye opening what it takes to run an airport.
 
we required that from limo companies...others were not even allowed to be on the ramp with a vehicle...

That’s silly

Not the type of airport I’d want to do much business on
 
The problem with some Signature locations, is they don't allow any access to the airport without fees, an airport that was built using public funds. One of the ones on AOPA's list is not far from here. Signature is the sole FBO, and they control the only GA ramp space on the airfield. If I land there in a typical single engine 4 seater, they charge a $20 ramp fee. Even if you don't even shut down, just drop someone off, they get your tail number and bill you. It has totally driven GA off of that airport, and the next nearest airport to that city is 30 miles away.

The worst part is that is not published anywhere. Local pilots know to avoid this airport, but if you aren't from the area there is no easy way to find out.
 
we required that from limo companies...others were not even allowed to be on the ramp with a vehicle...

What? o_O I can pull up with props spinning away, but can't drive a car out to load/unload the plane? That's nuts.

I've driven on lots of ramps. Not just little rural airports, but busier ones with Class D and even Class C airspace.
 
The problem with some Signature locations, is they don't allow any access to the airport without fees, an airport that was built using public funds. One of the ones on AOPA's list is not far from here. Signature is the sole FBO, and they control the only GA ramp space on the airfield. If I land there in a typical single engine 4 seater, they charge a $20 ramp fee. Even if you don't even shut down, just drop someone off, they get your tail number and bill you. It has totally driven GA off of that airport, and the next nearest airport to that city is 30 miles away.

The worst part is that is not published anywhere. Local pilots know to avoid this airport, but if you aren't from the area there is no easy way to find out.
We have the same thing at ORF, but it is a $40 fee charged by the corrupt Airport Authority. If you aren’t based, you are gonna pay it whether you take fuel or not.
 
While at times it seems a little misguided, I fully support AOPA's assault on Signature. The non-transparency, outrageous pricing and generally unfriendly attitude toward GA airplane (at least those that don't burn a lot of Jet-A) is not doing any of us any favors.
 
At the very least, airports should publish their fees. We do. And we don't charge non-commercial light aircraft. And we relieve ramp fees with fuel purchase for all aircraft. That's how it used to work with Signature or Landmark. We would tank up and fly away, although the fuel was often breathtaking in price.

I hate it when you land and get hit with a hidden ramp fee. That should be illegal.

Airports do need income to stay in business. It's either fuel sales or landing fees. You can't run the airport on FAA grants (those are for infrastructure) or hangar rent. We'd prefer if you just bought fuel when you come through.
 
Jet Center (KFNL) started charging parking fees not just overnight, anywhere on their ramp. And they lease the whole ramp. They finally relented on singles after the backlash.
 
I'm not talking about your standard GA ramp here... This was 99% corporate traffic... You ding a wingtip and its $10K minimum (in 1985)
One of the interesting tidbits of wisdom I learned from my primary instructor: We had returned form my first night flight and I turned in the wrong spot. Got stuck behind a row of aircraft and light poles. He told me "If you have a choice between hitting an airplane and hitting a light pole, hit the light pole. It's cheaper." Fortunately, there was a gap where I could taxi through.
 
More airports should adopt policy of No-charge ramp fee for non-commercial GA flights less than 6,500 lbs. A number of airports used to so this even if there's a 4 hour time limit.

Great idea.

When can we sign you up to volunteer 4 hours a week to empty trash cans, man a security gate, clear snow?

Where does the airport get the money to build and maintain the pavement? Can you talk to all your neighbors and get them to pass a tax increase to pay for this?
 
Not sure what their beef is with signature or really that it even makes sense, charge me too much as a private business and you just don’t get my business

That said paying landing fees to a airport built with my tax dollars is BS, there should be a place for transient GA planes without having to pay fees for the airport that our tax dollars built. Personally to me that smells like we need to start firing government workers as they don’t understand their station in America.

Which govt workers would you fire? It is your elected officials who decide these issues.
 
Philosophically, what is preventing the market from working effectively in terms of FBOs?
At a minimum, I would think having the FAA require published rates would be a start. Is there anything else?
The goal must be minimal regulation, because sometimes the FBO situation works, sometimes it doesn't. So a sledge hammer approach is likely not the best way.

Tim
 
I'm not talking about your standard GA ramp here... This was 99% corporate traffic... You ding a wingtip and its $10K minimum (in 1985)

Oh, I'm sure the rules didn't come about because someone tagged a Cherokee 140 wing tip or bumped into a strut on a 172. I'm sure some nimrod tagged a bizjet and kept it grounded until repaired, which can be more costly than the repair.

I've driven on ramps where the Baron 58 was the smallest plane and cheapest by an order of magnitude (and then some). I fly in to see our daughter at Lexington. Sometimes there are other piston planes there, sometimes it's just turboprops and business jets. And me in the Baron or a Cirrus. :oops:

The FBO team at LEX is great. They are very helpful and very quick, other than after the Derby this year; there was 60 planes there for that, so they were swamped. The counter staff has even let me drop off or pick up my daughter with no fee; "the manager's not here right now, so if you head out soon I can ignore the ramp fee". :cool::D
 
Philosophically, what is preventing the market from working effectively in terms of FBOs?
At a minimum, I would think having the FAA require published rates would be a start. Is there anything else?
The goal must be minimal regulation, because sometimes the FBO situation works, sometimes it doesn't. So a sledge hammer approach is likely not the best way.

Tim

I wonder how creative municipalities have been with devising airport business models. I'm part of a commission that oversees our small airport. I've been based there for almost 30 years. After an investor bankrupted the airport under private ownership, the village assumed ownership for pennies on the dollar. After that acquisition, but before our commission was formed, we used an "FBO" model where the village collected rent from a business owner and handed them the keys to run the airport, collect hangar rent, and take most of the fuel sales profits. This model was a financial disaster, resulting in mountains of municipal debt and considerable taxpayer support. And infrastructure was crumbling. We dismissed the FBO operator and took over the airport ourselves, luring an airport "manager" at low cost by offering rent-free business space rental. We keep all the hangar rent and fuel sales profit. The "manager" gets exclusive business rights for aviation maintenance, flight school, etc. and free rent of the main hangar space. We've also offered fuel discounts or other in-kind, non-salary incentives for luring airport staff. The village does routine mainteance, e.g. snow plowing, grass mowing, light repairs, etc. The result is that since the commission took over, the airport has posted a profit almost every year, paid off hundreds of thousands of dollars in accumulated debt over time, have not needed taxpayer support for over a decade, and we are financially stable enough to attract consultants who have helped us raise millions of dollars in federal and state airport improvement grants to make the airport even more usable. It's been a long road, but "traditional" thinking would have run (and was running) our airport into the ground. We are still in a challenging financial environment, but our last budget review showed us modestly in the black for the fiscal year. Our profits come from hangar rent and fuel sales, and our major expenses include maintenance and a partial salary for our airport manager and fuel discounts for the flight school.

Not that this exact model could be replicated everywhere at airports of various sizes, but how creative have publicly owned airports been in structuring their operations and finances? Larger municipalities can expect to use some taxpayer support as well, so I think it is possible to run an airport without exorbitant pricing. Our pricing is structured to keep us in the black, and no more. Our fuel prices could be lower if we had more volume. More planes = more fuel sales and rent. We are lucky to have a lot of turbine traffic for a local university, the Baseball Hall of Fame, and a nearby large dairy business.
 
Which govt workers would you fire? It is your elected officials who decide these issues.

Make it like the real world, any worker who says they can’t or won’t do their job, with the population of the US there’s someone out there who can make it happen, if you ain’t it, bye felicia

I'm not talking about your standard GA ramp here... This was 99% corporate traffic... You ding a wingtip and its $10K minimum (in 1985)

I’ve operated out of like 50% of the airports like that, many that also have airline terminals close by, never been a issue in my experience. Of course I’ve also never come close, or seen anyone come close to hitting the giant non moving jet with a car
 
Make it like the real world, any worker who says they can’t or won’t do their job, with the population of the US there’s someone out there who can make it happen, if you ain’t it, bye falicia

So the City council hires a airport manager and says don't come back here asking for tax money and who is going to fire him? Not the guy flying in from 100 miles away.
 
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More airports should adopt policy of No-charge ramp fee for non-commercial GA flights less than 6,500 lbs. A number of airports used to so this even if there's a 4 hour time limit.

Great idea.

When can we sign you up to volunteer 4 hours a week to empty trash cans, man a security gate, clear snow?

Where does the airport get the money to build and maintain the pavement? Can you talk to all your neighbors and get them to pass a tax increase to pay for this?

Why the snarky response?

The vast majority of airports in the US have no-charge 4 hour or more access for GA aircraft. Some of the Charlie airports in our area used to have this policy for the small guy to pick-up and drop-off. The new Signature contracts forced an end to that.

John Wayne airport reintroduced no-charge self service ramp for small GA flights with great effect for the local economy.
 
Why the snarky response?

That would be because he works for an FBO and apparently thinks it's his god-given right to monopolize tax-payer funded assets, sit back, and have the cash roll in regardless from people who have no actual need of his services. :p
 
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