strange dog behavior

SixPapaCharlie

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So we are in the process of training and it is going well.

There is this one thing we cannot explain.

Frequently If I am sitting at my desk and I stand up, My dog (The one in training) Attacks the other dog.

Both dogs can be laying on the floor nowhere near each other.

Yesterday I was at my desk, and old dog is asleep in the middle of the office floor. Dog in training is outside the door in the hallway floor just lying there.

I stand up and he just snaps. He makes a bee line for the other dog and attacks to the point of drawing blood.

It happened twice yesterday. Me simply standing up prompts him to just go at her.

What is going on?
 
I am no expert, but it sounds territorial. Is the dog in training new to the home? You getting up may prompt some type of protective, terrotorial response from the other dog.
 
Many animals display "redirected aggression". Perhaps you scare him when you stand up and because of his training, he knows better than attack you. So he attacks the other dog.

The other explanation is that, even if you won't admit it, he has seen you get up and beat the other dog. Since he is a well trained dog, he wants to please you so he attacks the other dog because he wants to emulate you.:D

But what do I know about dogs. Now if it were a cat . . .
 
dog being attacked is 13 year old female and I suspect the alpha (trainer states older female dogs tend to be the alphas)

She has lived here 5 years.
Attacker dog is 3 yr old male and only been in the house 2 years.
 
Is the dog new to you? Do you know it's history?

Maybe it sees you getting up, thinks that's some kind of 'agressive' behavior towards the other dog, and wants to join in?

edit - Just saw your response to my first questions in your post.

Maybe the younger dog wants to be the alpha?
 
Is the dog new to you? Do you know it's history?

Maybe it sees you getting up, thinks that's some kind of 'agressive' behavior towards the other dog, and wants to join in?

edit - Just saw your response to my first questions in your post.

Maybe the younger dog wants to be the alpha?

I believe that to be the case. He tends to be aggressive to award animals (never people) Which is what prompted the training.

Either yesterday or the day before both dogs are just chilling on the floor asleep. I walked in the door and he lunged at her.:(
 
Older dog is getting old. Younger dog senses it. Wants to take the older dogs place in the chain of command.

What kinda dogs?

How do you respond to the male dog when it attacks the female? Cuz, the female isn't alpha. YOU are, or should be. The young dog doesn't get to attack your pack without repercussions
 
Older dog is getting old. Younger dog senses it. Wants to take the older dogs place in the chain of command.

What kinda dogs?

How do you respond to the male dog when it attacks the female? Cuz, the female isn't alpha. YOU are, or should be. The young dog doesn't get to attack your pack without repercussions

I barked at him and put him outside.

Both are mixes.
She looks spot on like a swiss mountain dog but we have no idea for sure
https://www.google.com/search?q=swi...CAsVYvVOM31oATe-YG4Ag&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=0.9

He is some sort of mix. Also unsure of make and model.

attachment.php
 
Roll him on his back and put your hand around his throat. Not enough to hurt or be uncomfortable. Just enough pressure to let him know that you own him.

The touchy feely people will say this it terrible advice and is cruel. I think it is much nicer than the next step up which is to grab his scrotum and pinch the skin. And it is not as gross as spitting in his dog food. All are dominant behaviors designed to establish who is the alpha. If you want to be the alpha you have to play the part.

But hey, I'm a horrible person for not going to dog therapy and getting in touch with my feelings, or some crap like that...
 
If you can replicate this with someone else, make it happen and apply correction (what the other guy said, grad jowls and hold him down until he relents). However, if you can't physically apply correction then an E-collar or shock collar might be called for. I normally don't like these things, but this sounds like a safety issue (one dog attacking the other). The idea is to just distract him as he begins the behavior and give him a chance to cool down. With luck after a few applications he'll cool himself down and desist in the behavior.
 
I do think maybe they are competing for status. She does not back down at all so it escalates.
 
do you have shock collars? maybe you're sitting on the controller and when you get up it turns on and zaps the one pooch who in turn freaks out at the other dog, and then it shuts off when you sit back down. yeah, that's probably what's happening.
 
I'd go with something sterner than barking at him. Definately not rising to the level of the E collar yet.

I have a pit bull thats pretty mellow, but every once in a while she will pull the same kind of behavior with my older dog. I quick pinch and a sharp 'noise' from me gets her attention.
 
I do think maybe they are competing for status. She does not back down at all so it escalates.

Sounds like what others have commented. There can be only one Highlander, and that's you. Second place seems to be up for grabs. The younger dog wants it, the older dog wants to keep it. Somehow one of the dogs needs to learn its place
 
Roll him on his back and put your hand around his throat. Not enough to hurt or be uncomfortable. Just enough pressure to let him know that you own him.

The touchy feely people will say this it terrible advice and is cruel. I think it is much nicer than the next step up which is to grab his scrotum and pinch the skin. And it is not as gross as spitting in his dog food. All are dominant behaviors designed to establish who is the alpha. If you want to be the alpha you have to play the part.

But hey, I'm a horrible person for not going to dog therapy and getting in touch with my feelings, or some crap like that...

I've used that on lots of dogs. It does work. To the dog it is a sign of dominance. You have to let them know who the alpha really is, then you have order in the pack.
 
The Kohler technique always works. You and perhaps and accomplice would have to control the situation to where you make it too tempting and the attack occurs while wearing a long line and a choke. You apply a severe correction and then confine the dog. If you can replicate 3 days in a row the behavior will be terminated.
 
Bryan,

I'd suggest you speak with a dog training specialist in person and not a bunch of pilots who will be all over the place with their answers and only serve to confuse.
 
Bryan,

I'd suggest you speak with a dog training specialist in person and not a bunch of pilots who will be all over the place with their answers and only serve to confuse.

I am working with one he just doesn't come back out for another week
 
Are you making good use of your checklist?
 
Roll him on his back and put your hand around his throat. Not enough to hurt or be uncomfortable. Just enough pressure to let him know that you own him.

The touchy feely people will say this it terrible advice and is cruel. I think it is much nicer than the next step up which is to grab his scrotum and pinch the skin. And it is not as gross as spitting in his dog food. All are dominant behaviors designed to establish who is the alpha. If you want to be the alpha you have to play the part.

But hey, I'm a horrible person for not going to dog therapy and getting in touch with my feelings, or some crap like that...

I'm no hippy trainer, but this is a great way to get bit.

The shock collar advice is the way to go. Odds are good that if you put a longline on him he won't act out. But, if he's not physically attached to you, then you will have more of a chance to catch him.
 
He won't bite me.
And we have had tremendous success w/o shock collars.

This is a weird issue that has come up.
 
He won't bite me.
And we have had tremendous success w/o shock collars.

This is a weird issue that has come up.

Probably the case. I just meant that, as a rule, the whole physical dominance thing is a bad idea.

Lots of people have bad opinions of shock collars because they are so often misused. When used properly, the nick they receive is less disturbing than a yank on a collar. You don't crank it up so far that they yelp. Just enough to get their attention and break whatever they are doing.

Does he have a pretty good handle off-lead? Could you call him to you just before you get up to leave, put him in a heel, and walk him past the other dog while under control?
 
I experienced this same thing, We had a 6yr female Great Dane and we rescued an American Bulldog (Johnson). If I gave him any attention and the other dog came around he would violently attack her and not in the noisy sounding dog way but the bloody puncture wound way. We never were able to get to the bottom of it he was killed two weeks after we got him.
 
Lots of people have bad opinions of shock collars because they are so often misused. When used properly, the nick they receive is less disturbing than a yank on a collar. You don't crank it up so far that they yelp. Just enough to get their attention and break whatever they are doing.

I can get the same effect with an open fisted hand to the a** and a sharp, loud voice. And I feel it is more direct than me pushing a button from 5 ft. away. Been around dogs all my life(even had one take a finger from me at a young age). Found repeating this technique immediately after the offense got the desired result everytime. Obviously a less harsh offense got a less harsh punishment. May have one of those oddballs that it doesn't fix, but you never know. May be worth a try.
 
Some good advice above, some slightly questionable, but none awful.

Couple thoughts. Is she always closer to you than him? That's also a dominance/control of a major asset for them.

If you have them under enough control to make them swap positions, you should. It'll mess with their little doggy heads and they may not like it, but mix it up. Let him have the close spot sometimes and make her lie down further away. (If you're really savvy you can base this on who's being the "good" dog today, but you're also shooting for a change. A change YOU demanded and they don't GET to choose.

They're vying to be your "favorite" and closest to you is the "winner". Age is a significant issue as someone pointed out. He wants to knock her out of her place.

You choose where they lie down for a while. They don't. Shake them up a bit.

I don't think you're up to needing the shock collar yet, but you do need a way to break the lock when one dog locks on another with their eyes. Only you know whether you can control one or the other enough to stop it before/as it happens, but no matter what you need to be more watchful right now and before you rise you need to get them to make eye contact with YOU, not each other. Commands. They need to be getting a command before you get up.

If their eyeballs are already locked, it's already time to start a major and quick distraction and correction. Right then. Not when you get up. When they lock eyes.

In group dog settings the meet and greet time is properly started by walking all dogs non-stop and NO dog is allowed to lock eyes and hold with another dog...

Direction change, immediately and keep walking.

Eye to eye locks are a significant dominance game, and you're already behind the curve if he's locked on to her eyes before you stand. Break the locks. Make him watch YOU, not her. If you can control his eyes, you've got him.

One way is to throw something at him (not to injure of course) if you don't have a lead or other control method...

Or do the spray bottle thing and hide it so he doesn't know you have it, etc.

But make him STOP every time he locks eyes with her or vice versa.

If you can, and you're alone, put yourself BETWEEN them and in position to block and distract and not where they can get to each other before you can get there... But they have to be in a down stay to bother with this.

Or move a chair and be smarter than the dogs and have someone else sit close enough to grab one or the other of them.

They're going to play dominance games. That's what they do.

You're looking for a way to short circuit the game as it's starting, and make it clear that Alpha won't tolerate those games in his presence. (Or her, since Erin also needs to be involved, and frankly so do the kids... ALL humans always must "outrank" the dogs and must be obeyed, or they'll be looked upon as lower than the dog in pack status in the dog's mind.)

If you can't stop the game the moment it start, from where you're sitting, the "remote" nature of the shock collar is an option -- but it's training by fear and pain, not building a rapport. You want that dog looking at YOU for what you want him to do next, when you rise.

By the way, you also need to go insanely overboard with praise when the GOOD behavior happens, because that's a key piece may people leave out. Make a fool of yourself. Seriously.

Happy high pitched voices just like the high pitched yips of a happy pack celebrating and maybe even treats for ANY good outcomes makes the deep thundering growls and barks seem oh so bad and undesirable, compared to the happy giddy praising Alpha.

Put on your best Mickey Mouse voice and make it worth his time to do the right thing. Eventually he'll get it and know what's expected.

Especially if you can catch him starting to do something wrong and self-correcting, that's the KEY time to go nuts with the praise. Even if a damn bird out a window distracted him at the critical moment, rush to praise heavily immediately if the outcome of you standing up is a good one and both dogs remain self-controlled throughout.

That's all I've got. Good luck in figuring out what silly human things you've done wrong when your trainer helps figure them out.

I suspect that she has unlimited access to Aloha and prime spots and younger dog is jealous of it. He needs to know it's way more fun and Alpha likes him so much he's crazy happy with him when he takes is number two, or an occasionally allowed number one spot next to you at the desk.

Don't let him choose his behavior. He's choosing wrong but doesn't have enough negative or positive motivation to change it. Both need to be done and both need to be a little overboard at first so he catches on that he's driving your response but you're in charge. If he does it right, lots of praise and fun. If he's even so much as locking eyeballs in a dominance stare, he's choosing poorly because Alpha won't be pleased.
 
I can get the same effect with an open fisted hand to the a** and a sharp, loud voice. And I feel it is more direct than me pushing a button from 5 ft. away. Been around dogs all my life(even had one take a finger from me at a young age). Found repeating this technique immediately after the offense got the desired result everytime. Obviously a less harsh offense got a less harsh punishment. May have one of those oddballs that it doesn't fix, but you never know. May be worth a try.

The immediacy of the response is generally why the button from 5' away is what makes the collars more effective than a slap. If you have to close the distance between you and the dog in order to make the correction, you're already behind the curve.

Not saying it is the answer to all problems. I've just seen it be a very effective and non-abusive way to correct those stubborn and cagey dogs.
 
The Kohler technique always works. You and perhaps and accomplice would have to control the situation to where you make it too tempting and the attack occurs while wearing a long line and a choke. You apply a severe correction and then confine the dog. If you can replicate 3 days in a row the behavior will be terminated.

A good idea if you can do it. Same idea as a shock collar, basically distract the dog from their escalating emotional state and give them a chance to cool down into calm submission. The point is immediacy, apply the correction when the dog escalates. In addition, I suspect you have to protect the other dog before it gets hurt. That's the only reason I thought about a shock collar, because of the safety issue.
 

Yeah, Kohler is to obedience/protection training as Wolters is to hunting dogs. Their stuff was really innovative 50-70 years ago. But I think there are better ways to get more consistent results out of your dog. The yank and crank stuff teaches fear more than respect. Most of the training done with the MWD and Police K9s is a combination of reward and corrections that are intended to get the dog's attention, and not punish them.
 
Yeah, Kohler is to obedience/protection training as Wolters is to hunting dogs. Their stuff was really innovative 50-70 years ago. But I think there are better ways to get more consistent results out of your dog. The yank and crank stuff teaches fear more than respect. Most of the training done with the MWD and Police K9s is a combination of reward and corrections that are intended to get the dog's attention, and not punish them.


Most dogs tend one way or the other. Some dogs respond far better to attention and praise and reward than discipline, and some respond better to sharp words, non-injury strikes, whatever other "negative" stuff you can come up with.

I'm pretty lucky that I have two mutts who prefer praise and attention and will go out of their way to keep us happy with them. I've talked with some owners who's dogs simply didn't care but wised up at stiff corrections and displeasure. Ours retain and nuke habits far faster with praise but I know not all do.

And far more common than either, is the human who doesn't know how, can't, or won't, assume the pack leader role and wonders why their dog is completely out of control.

My challenge right now is that the new girl re-taught the big boy to jump up on some people. We are working on a four on the floor environment again, but she's fast and you need two people to correct and control both of them simultaneously and they're a tad confused at directions because they're interpreting the correction given to the other dog as for themselves at times.

Her favorite way to ask to be let out is to "pop" at the door with both front paws very quickly. She also seems to equate this with "hello" to people and while it's not painful nor does she do it hard, she's caught me in the groin before and I wasn't real pleased with that. So part of this training is that one must park one's butt on the floor in a sit before one gets any attention from me or the Mrs.

Got some work to do. Individually and together. At least she's a quick learner. Maybe a little too quick. She'll park the butt for ten seconds or so, and can launch herself to the "pop" straight from there now once in a while. But it makes it more difficult for her. We both just have to stay out of launching distance until she's settled down enough that she's making eye contact and not prepping to pounce/jump.

You can see it on her face when she's in the pop mood and just back up a bit and give the sit command again. She's obviously annoyed with us for mandating it, but like any habit it'll get easier for her with time.

Wife needs retraining too. She will carry in so much stuff that she can't even see the dog below and then wonder why she gets popped by the little one. Opportunities aren't missed by dogs. Haha. Duh.

Gotta get in the leader/trainer mindset before you even come through that door until the behavior stops.

May have to start putting the dogs in a sit stay in specific locations close enough to the door that they can see you and be happy you're home but not reach you until released.

Still thinking about that. There's disadvantages to having them build a habit of backing off of the door when someone we don't want coming in it, is outside.

The little girl is already 1000x the home protector/guard mentality than the big dumb boy is. He looks more intimidating but I wouldn't want to be the person messing with her or her territory. Her time before being rescued was obviously in some places she felt she needed to defend her turf but she also has that "I know how to get you to pause and scare you a bit so I can escape" behavior often seen in street savvy dogs. She always knows her "out" and won't make it easy to corner her.

Still kinda figuring her out. I do know if she is bored or wants to leave somewhere and has her full body harness on, she knows how to squirm her way out of it in a pinch. She did it once when frightened early on, and almost got away with it once later when she wanted to roam further than the leash would allow when we were talking to the neighbors outdoors. Was pretty funny to all of us to note some wiggling and light pulling and look down and see her with the harness half off and almost over her head. Haha.

She's way too smart for her own good and needs more "jobs". I've been encouraging her to round up her dumber older brother and herd him to the house when he's off somewhere out of sight in the two fenced acres or he doesn't look interested in coming in. "Go get him!" and she streaks off to go harass him. She gets praise for working him toward the house. He thinks it's playtime and will let her chase him at full speed sometimes which isn't the end result desired, but she'll generally bring him back with her if she's hungry and he's delaying mealtime. Ha. Figured that much out, at least. Better results when there's food to be had, and she often succeeds in bringing him back to the house.

Dogs are fun. Now that it's warming up I want to see how good she is at fetch at long range. Poor boy at first kept trying to show her what a ball was. He'd walk over and drop/bounce it at her feet and she'd ignore it. But once she found out that he liked chasing them after I threw them, all of a sudden she was in competition mode and decided she could beat him at that game. He sometimes looks at me sadly when she beats him to the ball and brings it back to me. So I strategically throw it so he can get to it easier than she can sometimes. Keeps them both entertained.

I think she'd be awesome at agility training but I just don't have the time to do it right now. It'd give her a lot of jobs to do and she would pick it up quick.
 
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