Still trying to understand approaches?

[Melissa2983298]

So I'm still trying to understand all of these approaches; we're getting to GPS and localizer approcahes and I'm starting to confuse all of them. So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

Thank you very much!

 

[Jaybird180]

I count 3 questions in there.

I am not qualified to answer about 2 miles or minutes but I can combine the questions about final course of 267 and GUMP by asking if you understand why you do GUMP. That would tell you when you do it and will burn it into your brain and unconfuse you.

During your PP training, were you taught about pre-landing checklists? Did you have to demonstrate to the DPE?

 

[RotorDude]

So I'm still trying to understand all of these approaches; we're getting to GPS and localizer approcahes and I'm starting to confuse all of them. So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

Thank you very much!

I think that should be "222 heading until established on the inbound course (267 degree TO FNT VOR)". IOW, you head 222 degrees to intercept (with appropriate wind correction if the wind is strong) and turn inbound as the VOR CDI needle centers for 267/TO.

 

[JasonM]

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute.

--- You need to be sure you are passed JOBGO outbound before your procedure turn. I would start a time from 2.8 DME (JOBGO) then do your turn.

(Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

--- Once you are inbound passed JOBGO is when I would do my GUMPS check.

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

--- When comfortable and established and ready to setup for landing is when I would.

 

[Marauder]

To answer your ILS question, I typically run the GUMPS check at the FAF. If I drop the gear before crossing the FAF, I will begin a descent a little earlier than I want.

As for the outbound leg on the approach you mentioned, your ground speed also plays a role in how much time I use for the outbound leg before the procedure turn. The requirement is to stay within 10 nm of the IAF. If your outbound ground speed is howling or really slow you may want to adjust the timing a bit. 120 knot ground speed = 2 nm/minute.

 

[mjburian]

So I'm still trying to understand all of these approaches; we're getting to GPS and localizer approcahes and I'm starting to confuse all of them. So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

Thank you very much!

It sounds like you're being taught 2 minutes outbound, which might be a decent ballpark... but understand that that's NOT a hard and fast rule. If you're flying directly into the wind for 2 minutes, you may only get a mile or two out. If you have a tailwind, you might end up 6 miles out. What you want to think about it how far do you WANT to fly outbound? Including the procedure turn, you have to remain within 10 miles. The further out you go (within the 10 mile limit), the more time you'll have on the inbound course. That may be a good thing while you're learning, but could be a really bad thing if you're low on fuel in IMC and need to get down ASAP. So rather than just think "2 minutes outbound" try to consider where that 2 minutes will put you and whether or not that's where you want to be when you make the procedure turn to come back inbound.

The procedure turn mechanics aren't nearly as important as making the turn on the correct side of the course while remaining with the 10 mile limit. Left to 042 and then right to 222 is the recommended way to do it (and it certainly makes it easier to just read the numbers and fly that course... course, not heading, by the way... so you may want to adjust for wind). Others might choose to do a left 90 to a 357 course followed by a right 270 to intercept the inbound course.

Here's how I would fly that approach on a calm day (but remember to adjust for wind, if necessary) and was not just being vectored to final:

Fly to FNT at 3100' (the MSA for the area). Run the 5 Ts, twisting the OBS to 087 and turning to a heading that matched (remember, this example is for no wind but you may have to use a wind correction angle to keep the needle centered on 087 with a FROM indication). Fly 6 miles* outbound (in this case, with no wind, that would be 4 minutes since I fly my approaches at 90kts) while descending down to 2500' (don't forget your descent checklist). After 2 minutes, turn left to 042 and run the 5 Ts (start the clock for my 1 minute outbound leg and twist the OBS to the inbound course of 267). After 1 minute, turn right to 222 in order to intercept the course. Once intercepted, begin my descent down to 1500' and run the before landing checklist (ie, GUMP or something similar). Assuming I have DME (my plane does), once I get to 2.8 DME, I can begin my descent down to the straight in MDA of 1260' (or, if I'm circling, to 1280'). Once I level off at MDA, I have the trim and power set to hold level and get my eyes outside as much as possible (while keeping an eye on altitude, so as to not go below MDA) in hopes of finding a runway. If I see the runway before the missed approach point and have the required visibility and the ability to land using normal maneuvering, I'll do so. If any of those are not true, I go missed.

* I chose 6 miles because that will keep me within the 10 mile limit and would be 3.2 miles beyond JOBGO, giving me plenty of time once established inbound to get down the 1000' I want to lose between intercepting the final approach course and reaching 2.8 DME.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, you need to account for wind. Approaches are one of the few times that Ground Speed really matters. Holds and procedure turns may need to have the "rule of thumb" times adjusted.

I like to do everything I can with regard to GUMPS as early as I can (prior or immediately after being establisehd on the approach). In my plane that is everything but U (the gear gets dropped at the FAF). A final check on breakout: THREE GREEN, PROP FULL FORWARD , MIXTURE.

 

[petrolero]

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

Thank you very much!

For approaches with a GS or an LPV, I run CCGUMPS when the GS is one dot above me (or I'm one dot below it, however you want to think of it). For non-precision I do it 2 miles from the FAF.

 

[James331]

In my plane that is everything but U (the gear gets dropped at the FAF). A final check on breakout: THREE GREEN, PROP FULL FORWARD , MIXTURE.

I do my prelanding (lights, gear, etc) checks 3mi from the FAF or one dot below the glide slope.

 

[stratobee]

There is no requirement to time the outbound, you can do the course reversal as soon or as late as you like (as long as you're within 10nm). And correct me if I'm wrong, but since JOBGO is not a FAF - and the circling and straight in minimas are the same - you could do the course reversal before you've reached JOBGO if you wanted to. Not that it would be very practical.

 

[Bill]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but since JOBGO is not a FAF - and the circling and straight in minimas are the same - you could do the course reversal before you've reached JOBGO if you wanted to. Not that it would be very practical.

But you need to be on the inbound beyond JOBGO if you want to take advantage of the DME minimums.

 

[bobmrg]

So I'm still trying to understand all of these approaches; we're getting to GPS and localizer approcahes and I'm starting to confuse all of them. So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right? Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

Thank you very much!

Every course on an approach plate is a no-wind course. Those that you have called out would work if there were no wind, but there is always wind and you must always consider it. The only restrictions when doing a procedure turn are that you maneuver on the correct side of the final approach course (267 in this case) and that you stay within ten miles. Other than that, you can and should fly a wind correction heading based on your best guess as to what the wind will do to your airplane. Let me deal with the one minute-two minute issue first: the longer the better, because you then have more time to get established inbound....just don't let a tailwind sail you past the ten mile mark. Now about the wind drift question: The protected airspace on the procedure turn side extends five miles from the facility/intersection perpendicular to the final approach course where you begin timing, and gets larger as you fly toward the ten mile mark (AIM 5-4-17, but I got the distances from the Instrument Procedures Handbook).

Now for the "how to:" What you have described is wrongly described by instrument instructors as a "standard" or 45-180 procedure turn; it is not "standard," it is just what Jeppesen and the government have chosen to depict among the many possibilities. You are not bound by any regulation to use that form of course reversal. You have many options, depending on the direction from which you approach FLINT: You could do a teardrop, heading outbound about 050-060 and turning inbound after a minute or so (the more the merrier...but don't forget the ten mile limit); you could do a racetrack, flying north past FLINT for 30 seconds or so, depending on the wind...you have five miles at the point, remember, and then turn to 087 corrected for wind for a minute or two and then turn right back to the inbound (you will have turned your OBS to 267 during this maneuvering). AIM 5-4-9 says that the type of course reversal and the point at which to begin it is left to the discretion of the pilot.

One last point: Don't get hung up on 5 T's and GUMP checks to the point where they increase your workload at a critical time.

Bob Gardner

 

[John Collins]

But you need to be on the inbound beyond JOBGO if you want to take advantage of the DME minimums.

Probably a wise idea, but I don't think it is required to use the lower minimums. The chart states DME minimums, and once 2.8 DME or less you may descend to the DME minimums.

 

[John Collins]

For approaches with a GS or an LPV, I run CCGUMPS when the GS is one dot above me (or I'm one dot below it, however you want to think of it). For non-precision I do it 2 miles from the FAF.

What is CCGUMPS?

 

[JasonM]

What is CCGUMPS?

Coffee & Cigarettes ...

Cheese & Crackers ...

 

[jordane93]

When does your CFI tell you to do GUMPS? You'll get lots of answers on her but I'm sure your instructor wants you to do it how he teaches you.

 

[flyingron]

I do the gear at the GS intercept or the FAF because there's typically a configuration change anyhow (you're either starting down the GS or you're droping to the MDA). It just happens to be handy that the gear helps in making that change.

 

[poadeleted20]

So I'm still trying to understand all of these approaches; we're getting to GPS and localizer approcahes and I'm starting to confuse all of them. So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes,

Why two minutes? If you can't explain that answer, you need to get your instructor to teach you how to correctly determine the right time for the outbound leg of a procedure turn.

turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?)

Not quite the right way to do it. You time the displacement leg, but the intercept leg is flown to interception, not based on time. Again, you need to get back with your instructor to gain a better understanding of how to do course reversals on a procedure turn.

After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?

No. Your instructor is the person you need to get with to obtain a much better understanding of the theory and practice of flying SIAP's.

Also, for localizer/ILS approaches, you would run your GUMP check when the glide slope comes in, right?

No.

Once it starts to come in and centers, you power back and a GUMP check, right?

No.

It's clear that you are very short on academic training on how to fly SIAP's. This isn't material one can readily teach over the internet. Please get with your instructor for more knowledge training on these procedures. If your instructor isn't willing/able to do that, find another instructor who's better at teaching instrument flying.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

.... So take this approach for example http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/00618V27.PDF

You would go to the IAF, run 5 Ts, then fly a 087 heading for two minutes, turn to a 042 heading for one minute, then 222 heading for one minute. (Does it matter if its two minutes or two miles?) After turning to a 267 heading, run 5 Ts and then a GUMP check, is that right?
.................

You'd cross the IAF, intercept the 087* VOR radial outbound and fly out your predetermined time or distance based on expected groundspeed (2 minutes is a good no-wind rule of thumb), turn left to a 042* heading and after flying that for 1 minute & 15 seconds (the 15 seconds is for the 45* turn). (During this time is a good time to change the CDI from 087 to 267). Now........Make a 180* right turn to a heading of 222* to intercept the radial inbound. There's no set time for this leg, depending on wind you might just roll in on the inbound course or maybe fly for more than a minute to intercept.
A couple of things to consider; concerning how far to fly outbound, you want to go out far enough so you'll be able to make a comfortable descent PT inbound to MDA in time to make a comfortable descent to landing and yet no so far out that you'll bust the "remain within 10 NM".
Plus, depending on your direction of flight when you cross the IAF you might want to start your outbound timing not when crossing but rather abeam of the VOR. Better yet just go out 4 DME (no wind, adjust as nessesary) and start timing the PT from there.
"5 T's & GUMPS", whatever you're comfortable with, I don't use either. I just do what needs to be done in a timely fashion.

 

[James_Dean]

Just keep at it. For me, approaches were difficult until one day they weren't. Then it is like riding a bike.

 

[azure]

There is no requirement to time the outbound, you can do the course reversal as soon or as late as you like (as long as you're within 10nm). And correct me if I'm wrong, but since JOBGO is not a FAF - and the circling and straight in minimas are the same - you could do the course reversal before you've reached JOBGO if you wanted to. Not that it would be very practical.

Correct. This approach doesn't have a FAF. But unless slipping descents in IMC are your idea of fun, you do want to cross JOBGO inbound at lower than 2500 feet, since it's only 2.3 nm to the runway (770 TDZE) from JOBGO.

I flew this approach on my IFR checkride so I'm pretty familiar with it. Marty covered just about everything AFAIK but there are a couple of things I would add. I apologize if these have already been said, but I didn't read the thread beyond stratobee's post.

1. You probably won't fly the full procedure approach unless it's pretty late in the evening. Even if you're arriving from the west, FNT APP is likely to vector you around the field and then to the FAC.

2. Whether or not you get to fly the full approach, you're not likely to be cleared down to the MSA until you're on downwind east of the field (it's possible, but don't count on it). If I was flying the full approach, I'd extend the outbound leg as much as I needed to get down to 2500 feet comfortably from whatever my last cleared altitude was. I wouldn't prejudge the distance needed, though I'd make sure I was comfortably beyond JOBGO - at least far enough to give me 2 minutes at 500 fpm descent from procedure turn inbound to crossing JOBGO.

 

[bobmrg]

Correct. This approach doesn't have a FAF. But unless slipping descents in IMC are your idea of fun, you do want to cross JOBGO inbound at lower than 2500 feet, since it's only 2.3 nm to the runway (770 TDZE) from JOBGO.

I flew this approach on my IFR checkride so I'm pretty familiar with it. Marty covered just about everything AFAIK but there are a couple of things I would add. I apologize if these have already been said, but I didn't read the thread beyond stratobee's post.

1. You probably won't fly the full procedure approach unless it's pretty late in the evening. Even if you're arriving from the west, FNT APP is likely to vector you around the field and then to the FAC.

2. Whether or not you get to fly the full approach, you're not likely to be cleared down to the MSA until you're on downwind east of the field (it's possible, but don't count on it). If I was flying the full approach, I'd extend the outbound leg as much as I needed to get down to 2500 feet comfortably from whatever my last cleared altitude was. I wouldn't prejudge the distance needed, though I'd make sure I was comfortably beyond JOBGO - at least far enough to give me 2 minutes at 500 fpm descent from procedure turn inbound to crossing JOBGO.

The MSA plays no part in an instrument approach procedure. Look it up in the P/C Glossary, with special attention to where it says
"...for emergency use..."

Bob Gardner

 

[azure]

The MSA plays no part in an instrument approach procedure. Look it up in the P/C Glossary, with special attention to where it says
"...for emergency use..."

Not sure why you're directing that at me. I was only responding to something stated in post #6. Please read that post again.

Anyway the important altitude when crossing the IAF is not some arbitrary minimum, but (normally) your last cleared altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no requirement to time the outbound, you can do the course reversal as soon or as late as you like (as long as you're within 10nm).

It's not always 10nm (check the VOR-A into 2W2), but otherwise, that's legally correct. However, from a practical standpoint, it is not true. You must consider the vertical profile in order to be sure you go far enough out to have enough time to get down to the runway (or MDA on a circling approach) before you reach the MAP.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but since JOBGO is not a FAF - and the circling and straight in minimas are the same - you could do the course reversal before you've reached JOBGO if you wanted to. Not that it would be very practical.

True on both counts -- legality and practicality (or perhaps impracticality).

 

[poadeleted20]

1. You probably won't fly the full procedure approach unless it's pretty late in the evening. Even if you're arriving from the west, FNT APP is likely to vector you around the field and then to the FAC.

How can they give vectors to final on an approach with no FAF?

Fly to FNT at 3100' (the MSA for the area).

2. Whether or not you get to fly the full approach, you're not likely to be cleared down to the MSA until you're on downwind east of the field (it's possible, but don't count on it).

MSA is not a part of flying an SIAP. The MSA is there for emergency use only when you're off the published procedure and do not have an ATC-assigned altitude to fly.

 

[aterpster]

It's not always 10nm (check the VOR-A into 2W2), but otherwise, that's legally correct. However, from a practical standpoint, it is not true. You must consider the vertical profile in order to be sure you go far enough out to have enough time to get down to the runway (or MDA on a circling approach) before you reach the MAP.

It is worth pointing out that 5 mile procedure turns are for Approach Category A only approaches.

 

[aterpster]

In TERPs vernacular this is an On Airport, No-FAF VOR approach. Such approaches are artifacts of the 1950s. Note that the missed approach point is at the VOR station, well beyond the approach end of the runway. That has some significant implications as well.

Also, this type of approach is supposed to be capable of being flown with only VOR equipment. (The JOBGO DME minimums are optional).

So why is the approach noted "DME required?" A shiny penny for the first one to provide the correct answer.

 

[Bill Watson]

In TERPs vernacular this is an On Airport, No-FAF VOR approach. Such approaches are artifacts of the 1950s. Note that the missed approach point is at the VOR station, well beyond the approach end of the runway. That has some significant implications as well.

Also, this type of approach is supposed to be capable of being flown with only VOR equipment. (The JOBGO DME minimums are optional).

So why is the approach noted "DME required?" A shiny penny for the first one to provide the correct answer.

For the miss

 

[azure]

How can they give vectors to final on an approach with no FAF?

I'm not sure whether it's CALLED the final approach course, but they do give you a vector to intercept it, then clear you for the approach. Whatever the correct terminology, my point was that you will typically not fly the full procedure approach - and I don't think I ever have, at least not on my checkride nor during my training leading up to it.

 

[aterpster]

For the miss

Shiny penny is yours.

This was issued in early 2013 when flight inspection found the radials comprising CLIOO to be unsatisfactory:

FDC 3/0134 FNT FI/P IAP BISHOP INTL, FLINT, MI. VOR RWY 27, ORIG... CHART
NOTE: DME REQUIRED. CHANGE MISSED TO READ: CLIMBING RIGHT TURN
TO 3000 ON FNT R-334 TO CLIOO/FNT 10.1 DME AND HOLD. DELETE LAN R-062
AND MBS R-163 FROM CLIOO. THIS IS VOR RWY 27, ORIG-A.

And, the other three VOR IAPs at FNT have a similar restriction but it is temporary unlike VOR 27: (pays to always check those NOTAMS):

FDC 4/1329 (A0656/14) - IAP BISHOP INTL, FLINT, MI. ILS OR LOC RWY 27, AMDT 5...
ILS OR LOC RWY 9, AMDT 22C...
VOR RWY 18, ORIG-A...
VOR RWY 36, ORIG...
VOR RWY 9, ORIG...
DME REQUIRED EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM WITH GPS. PSI VOR OUT OF SERVICE. 07 NOV 21:36 2014 UNTIL 07 DEC 21:36 2014 ESTIMATED.

CREATED: 07 NOV 21:36 2014

 

[azure]

So why is the approach noted "DME required?" A shiny penny for the first one to provide the correct answer.

Maybe because it's needed to identify CLIOO, the MA holding fix?

 

[aterpster]

A very important point about this type of approach where the MAP is beyond the runway threshold. Circling is still a viable option if too high when becoming visual. Often, in such circumstances, it is best to proceed to the VOR before beginning the circle to land.

 

[aterpster]

Maybe because it's needed to identify CLIOO, the MA holding fix?

I beat you by one minute.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

I'm not sure whether it's CALLED the final approach course, but they do give you a vector to intercept it, then clear you for the approach. Whatever the correct terminology, my point was that you will typically not fly the full procedure approach - and I don't think I ever have, at least not on my checkride nor during my training leading up to it.

I fly this type of approach quite often but always below radar coverage, always just cross XYZ aa # thousand cleared approach so you cross the IAF and fly the full approach. I'm curious? If ATC vectored you to the final approach course at what point would you consider yourself "established" on the approach and OK to descend to the published minimum altitudes depicted for that segment?

 

[John Collins]

How can they give vectors to final on an approach with no FAF?

Why not?

Six miles from Flint VOR, turn right heading two three four. Maintain two thousand five hundred until established on the final approach course. Cleared VOR runway two Seven, Bishop.

 

[bobmrg]

Not sure why you're directing that at me. I was only responding to something stated in post #6. Please read that post again.

Anyway the important altitude when crossing the IAF is not some arbitrary minimum, but (normally) your last cleared altitude.

My bad. Marty was the original culprit.

Bob

 

[azure]

I fly this type of approach quite often but always below radar coverage, always just cross XYZ aa # thousand cleared approach so you cross the IAF and fly the full approach. I'm curious? If ATC vectored you to the final approach course at what point would you consider yourself "established" on the approach and OK to descend to the published minimum altitudes depicted for that segment?

I treat half-scale deflection as established. Typically I'm told to maintain 3000 until established and I'm a couple of miles outside JOBGO by the time I'm established, so it's a bit of a hustle to get down to 1500 anyway. The full approach would actually be easier, but as I said, I can't recall ever flying it.

 

[John Collins]

I fly this type of approach quite often but always below radar coverage, always just cross XYZ aa # thousand cleared approach so you cross the IAF and fly the full approach. I'm curious? If ATC vectored you to the final approach course at what point would you consider yourself "established" on the approach and OK to descend to the published minimum altitudes depicted for that segment?

ATC guidance for vectors is in reference to what they term the approach gate and not necessarily with respect to a FAF. The approach gate is marked on their radar screen and is defined in the PCG as:

APPROACH GATE− An imaginary point used within ATC as a basis for vectoring aircraft to the final approach course. The gate will be established along the final approach course 1 mile from the final approach fix on the side away from the airport and will be no closer than 5 miles from the landing threshold.

The following is from the 7110.65V guidance for controllers regarding vectors to final:

Issue all of the following to an aircraft before it reaches the approach gate:
a. Position relative to a fix on the final approach course. If none is portrayed on the radar display or if none is prescribed in the procedure, issue position information relative to the navigation aid which provides final approach guidance or relative to the airport.
b. Vector to intercept the final approach course if required.
c. Approach clearance except when conducting a radar approach. Issue approach clearance only after the aircraft is:
1. Established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure, or
2. Assigned an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

..................

The following is from the 7110.65V guidance for controllers regarding vectors to final:

So then, at least in this case ATC won't issue the approach clearance until you're established on the final approach course and within 10 nm of the VOR? IOW, as soon as you're issued the approach clearance you can assume you can descend to the minimum altitudes depicted on the final approach course, right?

 

[peerlesscowboy]

I treat half-scale deflection as established. Typically I'm told to maintain 3000 until established and I'm a couple of miles outside JOBGO by the time I'm established, so it's a bit of a hustle to get down to 1500 anyway. The full approach would actually be easier, but as I said, I can't recall ever flying it.

And what if you happen to be inbound (267*) on the 087 radial or nearly so? Without DME you wouldn't know how far out you are. Arguably you might be "established" on the radial inbound too far out to safely descend to 1500'.