Still a little shaky. . . don't know if this is ever gonna go away.

I often reflect how lucky I was, being able to fly 2600+ missions in VN and have no horror stories. In those long boring hours of the VW flights we listened to the combat freqs but could not relate to what was happening.

God bless guys like you. I'd **** my pants at having to fire a berry pistol.
 
CowboyPilot said:
I've been thinking about this, but it's a lot like married couples going to an unmarried marriage counselor for help. After I rotated out of the service, there was mandatory counseling with some idiot shrinks on the VA list. Not one of them SOB's had ever been anywhere near a battlefield.

If I could find a good counselor (like Steven) who actually flies and is current, I think that might be easier to deal with and listen to. Problem is, I'm too damned self-reliant--had to be for the past forty-plus professional years.
-JD
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The chopper instructor at my airport is an ex-psychiatrist, and ex-military (Marines?). He's also a great guy. He's now instructing full-time. I don't know if he'd see anyone, but if you want, I can see if he'd be willing. Seriously, as I'm sure you know, talking to professionals can be a good thing! PM me if you want me to look into it.

I'm WAY too new at this to think that I can offer any useful advice myself.
 
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I've flown quite a lot at night for still having so few hours; about a fourth of my total time. It's my favorite time to fly. When I was married, we'd get into a fight on some late nights and I'd leave. Some guys went to the bar and got wasted. I went to the airport and went flying. That was my solace; my joy. It still is.

Reading stories of others on here makes me grateful I've not encountered such things. But, by no means am I immune to this effect.

JD, I hope you get past this soon and again can enjoy the stars above the wings regardless of how many lights are below.

Ken
 
CowboyPilot said:
But coming in on short final with the engine pulled back to idle and seeing the black hole. . . got the sweats and the shakes again.-JD
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Don't worry so much. When this happens sit back and enjoy it.

FLY THE AIRPLANE

People PAY to experience the same thing on roller coasters and other thrill rides.

Karl
ATP CFI ETC
 
CowboyPilot said:
Won't give up flying. Just not sure if I'll ever be able to fly again after the sun has gone down. I do a lot of medical flights with kids and it sure as hell would be helpful if I could utilize the first and last hour of the day instead of being a ***** about it. But it's like the harder I fight it, the worse it fights back.

-JD
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If this is going to bug you until you get over it (sounds like it is), I'd definitely take Greg's advice and try hypnotherapy. If you can be hypnotized (doesn't work for everyone AFaIK) a good therapist can do some amazing things WRT unwanted somatic reactions from what I've seen and read. And I suspect there's a good chance that trying to beat this on your own will only make the condition worse in addition to frustrating yourself further. If you're not ready to admit defeat and give up night flying, see if you can get a referral from a trusted doctor. There are quacks out there, but there are legitimate hypno docs as well.
 
CowboyPilot said:
And you're right, Lance. Knowing that I have complete confidence in this little bird does help. Probably ought to use her to venture a little further out each time.
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From the "other Lance", confidence in the plane will help, but I really don't think this will be sufficient. If you're anything like me, you will still occasionally get "a feeling" during a night flight from an unexpected bump or noise and it could easily cascade from there to the whole enchilada (cold sweats, severe anxiety attack etc). JD you've obviously put a lot of effort as well as thought into conquering this and it sure sounds like whatever you've been trying hasn't worked. There's no shame in taking a problem like this to a professional. I can't see that they'd need to be a pilot to help, and unless you can find a pilot/therapist that's also been through a horrifying crash I thing you'll just have to rely on their basic skills and training. If you had a cancerous tumor you wouldn't try removing it yourself, would you? This thing is a lot like a tumor except that the person who treats it won't (likely) need a scalpel or radiation treatment to repair the damage.

Your reluctance to try therapy is probably a lot like the pilot who is too embarrassed to declare an emergency when that's exactly the right thing to do. And besides "wasting" some of your cash, what have you got to lose by trying this?

I really think it will come down to good therapy or learning to fly with night vision goggles.

Best of luck either way.:)
 
lancefisher said:
...fly with night vision goggles.


Now there's an idea! I bet I could save a bundle on parachute re-packs. Seriously, night vision could really save your bacon in some instances. I wonder if it would be practical to have them along for emergencies.

MM
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wby0nder said:
lancefisher said:
...fly with night vision goggles.
Click to expand...
Now there's an idea! I bet I could save a bundle on parachute re-packs. Seriously, night vision could really save your bacon in some instances. I wonder if it would be practical to have them along for emergencies.

MM
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Reading some of the blogs of those that do this sort of thing, my impression is flying with them is a bit more complex than just pulling on the NVGs. Sounds like lots of training required to be close to proficient. But that's just my impression - I have no experience with NVG at all...
 
gkainz said:
Reading some of the blogs of those that do this sort of thing, my impression is flying with them is a bit more complex than just pulling on the NVGs. Sounds like lots of training required to be close to proficient. But that's just my impression - I have no experience with NVG at all...
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Yea, that's what I've heard to. Plus, a pretty narrow field of vision makes it difficult. But, heck, in an emergency you could put them on and take a look around. If you didn't like what you saw :hairraise: you could take them off again. :)

I'm gonna keep wearing my parachute at night.
 
wby0nder said:
I'm gonna keep wearing my parachute at night.
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I'm assuming that you wear the parachute so that in the event of an engine failure in cruise you will jump. I'm just curious-- Would you attempt to glide to an airport or is your procedure going to be to jump no matter what. It would suck to attempt to glide to an airport, not make it, and be too low to jump before you know it. This is really easy to do at night with winds aloft and deceptive vision.
 
gkainz said:
Reading some of the blogs of those that do this sort of thing, my impression is flying with them is a bit more complex than just pulling on the NVGs. Sounds like lots of training required to be close to proficient. But that's just my impression - I have no experience with NVG at all...
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I've done it working night Ag so I can inspect the field for hazards before I drop in, and you're right, it takes significant experience to use them critically, however, they can be usefull without requiring precision flying ability. I'd have them down until my worklights hit the field, then I'd flip them up and fly the field using the work lights and naked eyeballs. It seemed to work reasonably well without trying to use them for critical perception.
 
[quote=jesse;15050

Would you attempt to glide to an airport or is your procedure going to be to jump no matter what.

Jump no matter what. Just ask Tony, he can hardly keep me in the airplane even with the engine running!





Of course I'm going to try to glide to an airport. But, if things start looking bad as you approach 2000 agl it's time to start heading for the door.

Even in open farm country, if you are lucky enough to miss the trees, finces, power lines, livestock, buildings, uneven terrain, rivers, lakes, and coast to earth at a reasonable attitude and speed how likely is it that you will roll to a stop upright and undamaged. Moonlight would help a lot but you can't see details. All it takes is one little barbed wire fence and you are doing cartwheels. The interstate looks pretty good but it's awful hard to see those overpasses in the dark.

Granted, it would be a tough decision to exit a "until recently perfectly good airplane". Sure, the cabin provides considerable protection. But you've also got a lot of mass and momentum not to mention fuel along for the ride too (unless you're lucky enough to have run out) Jumping has a lot of risks too. You've still got all the obstical hazards listed above but a much smaller footprint and greatly reduced mass.

I just don't want to find myself sitting there in the dark, or IMC, or on fire wishing I hadn't left my chutes back in the hanger.
 
Henning said:
That brings up another potential, Cirrus w/ BRS?
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I think it would be cool to pop the BRS then casually open the door and parachute out on your own so you could watch the Cirrus come down. Better carry a little parachute army guy in your pocket too and make it a three way. Last one wins!
 
Travel Airs are nice. But I think you would enjoy an Apache even better.:D
ApacheBob
 
gkainz said:
Reading some of the blogs of those that do this sort of thing, my impression is flying with them is a bit more complex than just pulling on the NVGs. Sounds like lots of training required to be close to proficient. But that's just my impression - I have no experience with NVG at all...
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To make "perfect" landings in starlight (remember some albeit faint light is still required), would no doubt take considerable getting used to but scanning the nearby area for a suitable landing sight probably wouldn't be as difficult. If I had NVG and lost an engine at night I'd wear them until my landing lights had picked up the ground and then switch to "naked" eyes. I don't think I'd want to try and flare with the goggles on unless my landing light(s) were also out.

I was really at least half kidding with that "suggestion" but if JD could borrow some to try he might find that they provided just enough security when using them to keep a plausible landing area in sight. Then again, they wouldn't do much for the initial "black hole" in front of the plane on takeoff into a dark sky.

i have a cheap (Gen I) "nightscope" and I have tried looking through it from the plane in the air and found it pretty useless. For one thing you need one hand to hold the thing and you only look through one ene. In addition, it has 2X magnification which makes it difficult to relate what you see through the device with the view without amplification.
 
lancefisher said:
i have a cheap (Gen I) "nightscope" and I have tried looking through it from the plane in the air and found it pretty useless. For one thing you need one hand to hold the thing and you only look through one ene. In addition, it has 2X magnification which makes it difficult to relate what you see through the device with the view without amplification.
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The Gen I stuff is pretty useless for the job. Gen III works pretty well. I use them as you described.
 
CowboyPilot said:
. . . made me feel like a real wuss. :redface:
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You are not a wuss. A wuss would have stayed on the ground. Because of a very extreme event in your life, the ancient, lizard part of your brain has decided that night flying is dangerous. Because there was a noble reason for the flight, you fought that part of your brain throughout the whole flight. You battled it and you made the flight.

Even more impressively, you admitted that you'd need help to fight your demon and you allowed others to know of your fears and to help you in your flight. In our silly, macho, male culture that takes courage in itself, or at least it would for me.

Brave people aren't the ones who don't know fear. Brave people are the ones who feel fear and go anyways.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
ancient, lizard part of your brain
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Chris, if you don't stop calling JD an ancient lizard, you're in for a whupping! :)
But I wholeheartedly agree, he is NOT a wuss, in any way, shape, or form.
 
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lancefisher said:
If this is going to bug you until you get over it (sounds like it is), I'd definitely take Greg's advice and try hypnotherapy. If you can be hypnotized (doesn't work for everyone AFaIK) a good therapist can do some amazing things WRT unwanted somatic reactions from what I've seen and read. And I suspect there's a good chance that trying to beat this on your own will only make the condition worse in addition to frustrating yourself further. If you're not ready to admit defeat and give up night flying, see if you can get a referral from a trusted doctor. There are quacks out there, but there are legitimate hypno docs as well.
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I just remembered how reassuring it was when flying an old Cherokee 180 over mountains a lot at night, to turn on this million candlepower or so landing light that the owner had put in special. Whatever it was, it lit up everything in the flightpath for at least a mile ahead, and it was bright. Could be a quick help.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I just remembered how reassuring it was when flying an old Cherokee 180 over mountains a lot at night, to turn on this million candlepower or so landing light that the owner had put in special. Whatever it was, it lit up everything in the flightpath for at least a mile ahead, and it was bright. Could be a quick help.
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Yeah, I was also thinking that maybe JD just needs some HID landing lights. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive.
 
wby0nder said:
I think it would be cool to pop the BRS then casually open the door and parachute out on your own so you could watch the Cirrus come down. Better carry a little parachute army guy in your pocket too and make it a three way. Last one wins!
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I know you often fly single engine with a parachute--probably not a bad idea at night. At least you'd be the last one laughing if something did happen.

I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to open the door on a C172/C150 to jump out. I suspect that at lower speeds it may be possible but it'd still probably be pretty damn hard.

One time I had the window open on a C172 on a nice day and was descending out of cruise. I was probably in the 130 to maybe 140 knot range. Without thinking I stuck my arm out the window to feel the nice summer breeze-- I damn near lost my arm. Ouch.

Anyone here know of any cases where a person has jumped out of a C172/C150 with standard doors?
 
jesse said:
One time I had the window open on a C172 on a nice day and was descending out of cruise. I was probably in the 130 to maybe 140 knot range. Without thinking I stuck my arm out the window to feel the nice summer breeze-- I damn near lost my arm. Ouch.
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LOL Wow, I totally would have eventually done that if you hadn't warned me. Drag really does go with the square of the velocity. You had four times the drag you'd expect at freeway speeds! Thanks for the warning.

jesse said:
Anyone here know of any cases where a person has jumped out of a C172/C150 with standard doors?
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Aerobatic 152s have a door release. However, somebody posted an NTSB report on here recently about somebody who commited suicide by jumping out of a C152, so it must be possible. Before you make a video of yourself testing how hard it is to open the door, check your seatbelt!

Chris
 
jesse said:
Anyone here know of any cases where a person has jumped out of a C172/C150 with standard doors?
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I do it all the time right after shutting down the engine on the ramp.













Sorry, Couldn't resist...
 
JRitt said:
They are called sky divers. I saw one jump out of a 172 with no doors and only 1 seat
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That's easy. The point of Jesse's question was that it is VERY difficult to open a door in flight wide enough to get a person through due to aerodynamic drag. We just don't know how difficult...
 
jesse said:
One time I had the window open on a C172 on a nice day and was descending out of cruise. I was probably in the 130 to maybe 140 knot range. Without thinking I stuck my arm out the window to feel the nice summer breeze-- I damn near lost my arm. Ouch.
Click to expand...

In a time not TOO long ago, a person looking remarkably similar to me riding a very similar CBR1100XX decided to do a top speed run on a lonely 5mi stretch of road. The fool, after reaching an indicated 177, came up off the tank and out of the bubble, and nearly got ripped off the bike by the wind forces.

Luckily, this idiot friend of mine doesn't do that kind of thing anymore.
 
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CowboyPilot said:
Any ideas for whipping this thing, I'm open.

Thanks.

-JD
Click to expand...

Why not start out like you would when you first start something. I would go on a full moon night maybe even a little early. I would also fly to a well lit or easy to land at airport. Make everything in your favor. Just transition into darker nights and less lights on the terrain.

I had a recent trip to KRAP were we left @ 4:00 am. flying over MN was great lots of lights and towns not to mention airports. As we went into SD the ground rose up to us and the lights disappeared, so did the airports. I was having trouble getting to within 20 miles of one. I started thinking how stupid am I. Over land I do not know in the dark. It did start to lighten up and we arrived in morning light. If I would have taken off in the pitch blackness I think I would have just turned around. I think it is much easier to take things in steps than BAM. You may also look into using a road GPS while flying. I can download sat views to my EFB and actually see what I am flying over.

Dan
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's easy. The point of Jesse's question was that it is VERY difficult to open a door in flight wide enough to get a person through due to aerodynamic drag. We just don't know how difficult...
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Add to the fact that you are the single pilot/individual on board, the airplane is in distress, the ground is coming up quick, etc etc.

Would be hard to do.

-JD
 
CowboyPilot said:
Add to the fact that you are the single pilot/individual on board, the airplane is in distress, the ground is coming up quick, etc etc.

Would be hard to do.

-JD
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I'd be pulling up fast and banking with my door on the outside of the turn, bailing out just above stall, freeway speeds.
 
Henning said:
That brings up another potential, Cirrus w/ BRS?
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Can the LancAir he's building, accept a BRS system?

Cowboy, would having a chute for the airframe lessen your concerns? It sounds like you have a lot of parachute experience.
 
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