steep turns

Not for a temporary condition such as a turn. I was also taught not to trim in a steep turn.
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Who taught you that? Was it an experienced pilot, or a time building instructor.

I've been to a lot of training, including all the major industry sim training centers, airline training, agricultural training, various schools and specialty training, and I've done it with over 80 different makes and models of aircraft in my logbook. I'm also an instructor, and I don't think I'd ever teach it that way. I've never heard it taught that way. No professional training institution or facility of which I'm aware teaches it that way.

Some here have opined that it's the lazy man's way, to trim. I disagree.

In some aircraft I fly, we lower flaps in the turn, then retract them as we roll out; it's standard. In a steep turn, you're expected to be able to demonstrate trim; it's part of the purpose of trimming. Trim is about far more than simply eliminating some stick pressure. It's about understanding the aircraft.

An aircraft flies a trimmed speed in stable flight (more specifically trimmed AoA, but speed is close enough). In a steep turn, one should be able to trim the airplane such that it very nearly stays in the turn by itself.

I can't recall any professional training facility I've ever attended, or worked with, including industry facilities such as Simuflite or Flight Safety International, and company training, that would suggest one ought to do steep turns on muscle, rather than when using trim. A steep turn should be done with minimal effort, and one should use trim frequently.

I constantly trim in flight, with any change in airspeed, power, configuration. The airplane should be trimmed to the flight condition. It's not merely something one does in cruise. I trim the rudder on takeoff in high power conventional gear airplanes. I trim out rudder with an engine out in a multi engine airplane. I trim out the rudder for takeoff and climb in any airplane that requires it or has it available. Students should be taught to use the trim. Using trim isn't a weakness. It's finesse, and it's there to be used. Anyone that's teaching you not to use the trim or that somehow it shows weakness or laziness is steering you wrong.

I had replied to the wrong post; I meant to reply to Doug's. He teaches adding a smidgen of power, not 100 RPM, and I have found that to maintain the airspeed it will take 100 RPM or much more.
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No, I didn't say that at all. I didn't say not to add 100 RPM or more, I said I don't teach a value to add. The student can add a little power, and doesn't have to monitor the power to see what's been added. If a little is added and it's not enough, add a little more. If a little is added and it's too much, then take some away. I've never been a big fan of teaching a student to add 1.5 rolls of the trim wheel or 100 rpm...I'm not teaching the student to fly serial number XXXXX. I'm teaching him to fly an aircraft. It's the concept, not the rote value that's important.

In some aircraft we had to establish a speed somewhat lower than cruise so that the full throttle could maintain it in the turn.
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It'a fairly standard to use a moderate speed for steep turns. The speed should be high enough to be above the accelerated stall speed in the bank, plus a margin, but needn't be at cruise. Trying to do steep turns at cruise in a lot of aircraft will take a very wide maneuvering area.

Steep turns add a lot of drag
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Steep turns require a higher angle of attack with an attendant arise in AoA, but not an enormous amount of drag. A slight increase in power is sufficient.
 
Set your stop-watch for the next steep turn series that conforms to check-ride maneuver (360's in opposite directions) and report back on the time required to complete.

Dan Thomas said:
Flying the airplane with trim was a lazy pilot's thing when I learned to fly. It's to remove the back pressure for extended periods. Rolling in trim in a steep turn is just going to aggravate the tendency to climb in the rollout, and so you have to push forward hard and hold it while you roll the trim out. Not worth it for six or eight seconds in the turn, in my view.

Dan
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Try trimming, try not trimming. Do whatever works for you in that particular airplane. It's just technique not procedure.
 
Little OT excursion: In a lot of air show fighter demonstrations, the pilot will often go low level down the runway, then pull into a 6+g turn. I wonder if he's using trim :popcorn:
 
Most airplanes I have flown are capable of flying steep turns just about hands off.

Help the airplane to stabilize itself in the steep turn by small adjustments (trim, power, etc)....instead of fighting it to do what you want. A lot of the time airplanes fly well on their own...and we as pilots are what screw them up.
 
To be honest, I read some of the technical descriptions of steep turns here and I was a little bewildered. Steep turns are just something I started to do innately after I figured out overbanking tendency...
 
Jaybird180 said:
Little OT excursion: In a lot of air show fighter demonstrations, the pilot will often go low level down the runway, then pull into a 6+g turn. I wonder if he's using trim :popcorn:
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You may be interested in educating yourself on fly by wire.
 
MSPAviator said:
To be honest, I read some of the technical descriptions of steep turns here and I was a little bewildered.
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What's the point of an internet forum if the simplest of subjects aren't overcomplicated, beaten to death, and argued over until everyone is a little bewildered? ;)
 
Ok guys, here I'm - just failed my checkride because of the steep turns :(... My first one was perfect, on the 2nd one I lost 150 feet... The good thing though is that I passed almost everything else and only need to do steep turns and some landings (we just skipped them since I failed anyway) on the next try... I can do steep turns - just not consistently within the PTS. I read this thread, as well as many other recommendations on the Internet, flew with my CFI on Saturday and solo Sunday doing nothing but steep turns - with and without trim, trying different power settings - and I'm still busting about one out of 3 turns...

It seems that if I'm pulling the yoke during the first 30 degrees of bank - I start climbing, and if I don't - I start sinking even before I'm past 30 degrees... And from that point on I'm just fighting the yoke the whole turn trying to keep myself within the 100 feet of the starting altitude, and sometimes during that fight I lose :(... Trimming didn't do much good for me - it only changed the midpoint around which I'm moving the yoke back and forth... I know that's wrong - I just don't know what to do exactly to make it right... My CFI is saying that I only need more practice... Am I? But if anyone can give some extra advise to an almost hopeless student - I'd appreciate it :)...
 
tb813 said:
Ok guys, here I'm - just failed my checkride because of the steep turns :(... My first one was perfect, on the 2nd one I lost 150 feet... The good thing though is that I passed almost everything else and only need to do steep turns and some landings (we just skipped them since I failed anyway) on the next try... I can do steep turns - just not consistently within the PTS. I read this thread, as well as many other recommendations on the Internet, flew with my CFI on Saturday and solo Sunday doing nothing but steep turns - with and without trim, trying different power settings - and I'm still busting about one out of 3 turns...

It seems that if I'm pulling the yoke during the first 30 degrees of bank - I start climbing, and if I don't - I start sinking even before I'm past 30 degrees... And from that point on I'm just fighting the yoke the whole turn trying to keep myself within the 100 feet of the starting altitude, and sometimes during that fight I lose :(... Trimming didn't do much good for me - it only changed the midpoint around which I'm moving the yoke back and forth... I know that's wrong - I just don't know what to do exactly to make it right... My CFI is saying that I only need more practice... Am I? But if anyone can give some extra advise to an almost hopeless student - I'd appreciate it :)...
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Sounds like you might be overcomplicating it. Don't worry too much about airspeed, trim, or the power setting. Get in the habit of doing your steep turns at the same bank angle. Now all you have to do is learn the spot on cowling that must remain on the horizon during the turn...and don't let it move up or down! It's all about sight picture. To learn the sight picture, you need to corroborate with the altitimeter or VSI to check for altitude gain/loss, but once you learn the sight picture, you won't need to look much at the instruments. Don't change your trim...too many variables, and not necessary unless you just don't have the physical strength to hold the yoke in position. You will add power in response to the feel of the yoke becoming slack and your airspeed deteriorating during the turn. Do it by feel...and keep the spot on the horizon. Forget about the ASI. You should be able to feel in the yoke if you are getting too slow and close to stalling. The addition of power will not change anything related to the sight picture.
 
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tb813 said:
But if anyone can give some extra advise to an almost hopeless student - I'd appreciate it :)...
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You're not hopeless, it will start to click. Here's my advice as a low time pilot, for what its worth. Don't look at your VSI. Look at the nose of your airplane relative to the horizon. Put it in the spot where you maintain altitude and keep it there through the turn. Continue to do a quick scan of your airspeed, altitude and VSI to confirm what your eyes and your butt are telling you, but keep your eyes outside the airplane as much as possible.
 
tb813 said:
Ok guys, here I'm - just failed my checkride because of the steep turns :(... My first one was perfect, on the 2nd one I lost 150 feet... The good thing though is that I passed almost everything else and only need to do steep turns and some landings (we just skipped them since I failed anyway) on the next try... I can do steep turns - just not consistently within the PTS. I read this thread, as well as many other recommendations on the Internet, flew with my CFI on Saturday and solo Sunday doing nothing but steep turns - with and without trim, trying different power settings - and I'm still busting about one out of 3 turns...

It seems that if I'm pulling the yoke during the first 30 degrees of bank - I start climbing, and if I don't - I start sinking even before I'm past 30 degrees... And from that point on I'm just fighting the yoke the whole turn trying to keep myself within the 100 feet of the starting altitude, and sometimes during that fight I lose :(... Trimming didn't do much good for me - it only changed the midpoint around which I'm moving the yoke back and forth... I know that's wrong - I just don't know what to do exactly to make it right... My CFI is saying that I only need more practice... Am I? But if anyone can give some extra advise to an almost hopeless student - I'd appreciate it :)...
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Some tips in case one of them sticks or gives you an "ah-ha" moment.

- Make sure you're trimmed for hands off level flight BEFORE entry.

- Get your CFI to demonstrate and note where the horizon is crossing the cowl. Set that, it'll go around in circles all day without changing.

- Your note about up down up down pitch means you're over-correcting. Think about smooth changes that put you back at your desired altitude in a few seconds, not "right now". Smooth. Stop "pumping" the yoke.

- If you're having trouble with the transition from level flight to the place you SET and HOLD for the turn, just roll in a little faster. Nothing rediculous, but why dawdle at 20-30 degrees. Bank it in now... And roll out now. Crisply but not snapping it around. Just speed it up a little so you go from stable label flight to a stable steep turn in one relatively quick motion. It's not meant to be a slow aileron roll.

- Practice. Look outside. Use the horizon. Once the altimeter and VSI say you're level, hold it by looking outside. Feel descents or climbs in your butt, not via staring at the altimeter. "Set" the giant Attitutude Indicator out the window know as "Earth" and hold the pitch and bank angle exactly.

Hope that helps. Keep going up. You'll get it.
 
Just wanted to check back in and to thank everybody who gave me some tips and advise! Finally, got my 2nd checkride today (had pretty tough work schedule in the last several weeks, and almost hit the 60 days limit before the 2nd attempt), and passed! YAY :thumbsup:!

Here's what did the trick for me with the steep turns:

  • Look outside!!! Wow - how could I have missed that?.. Looking out of the cockpit most of the time made the steep turns SO MUCH EASIER :)! Only after reading all the comments here I realized how much I was fixating on the instruments during the turn!..
The next 2 points helped too, but to the lesser degree:
  • Add power before starting the turn, don't worry about it during the turn.
  • Roll into the turn quickly - do not hesitate!
I couldn't believe how hard it was for me just a couple months ago, and how easy and smooth my steep turns are now! Thanks again everyone for your helpful hints, and thanks to both CFIs who worked with me and got me to this point. Now it's time to start learning how to fly - and have fun in the process :)!
 
tb813 said:
Just wanted to check back in and to thank everybody who gave me some tips and advise! Finally, got my 2nd checkride today (had pretty tough work schedule in the last several weeks, and almost hit the 60 days limit before the 2nd attempt), and passed! YAY :thumbsup:!

Here's what did the trick for me with the steep turns:

  • Look outside!!! Wow - how could I have missed that?.. Looking out of the cockpit most of the time made the steep turns SO MUCH EASIER :)! Only after reading all the comments here I realized how much I was fixating on the instruments during the turn!..
The next 2 points helped too, but to the lesser degree:
  • Add power before starting the turn, don't worry about it during the turn.
  • Roll into the turn quickly - do not hesitate!
I couldn't believe how hard it was for me just a couple months ago, and how easy and smooth my steep turns are now! Thanks again everyone for your helpful hints, and thanks to both CFIs who worked with me and got me to this point. Now it's time to start learning how to fly - and have fun in the process :)!
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Congratulations! :cheerswine:
 
tb813 said:
Just wanted to check back in and to thank everybody who gave me some tips and advise! Finally, got my 2nd checkride today (had pretty tough work schedule in the last several weeks, and almost hit the 60 days limit before the 2nd attempt), and passed! YAY :thumbsup:!

Here's what did the trick for me with the steep turns:

  • Look outside!!! Wow - how could I have missed that?.. Looking out of the cockpit most of the time made the steep turns SO MUCH EASIER :)! Only after reading all the comments here I realized how much I was fixating on the instruments during the turn!..
The next 2 points helped too, but to the lesser degree:
  • Add power before starting the turn, don't worry about it during the turn.
  • Roll into the turn quickly - do not hesitate!
I couldn't believe how hard it was for me just a couple months ago, and how easy and smooth my steep turns are now! Thanks again everyone for your helpful hints, and thanks to both CFIs who worked with me and got me to this point. Now it's time to start learning how to fly - and have fun in the process :)!
Click to expand...

Congrats!!
Never, ever, give up!
 
denverpilot said:
- Get your CFI to demonstrate and note where the horizon is crossing the cowl. Set that, it'll go around in circles all day without changing.
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This is what I did- had my cfi fly 2-3 full rotations in each direction while I memorized the sight picture. I didn't look inside the entire time.

My next steep turns- nailed them, and on the check ride they were with in 5', yup five feet, he did have me hold them while he was on the phone with the flying club chief maintenance officer about getting the maint logs, and around and around and around we went. Now I want to go flying.

Edit: guess I should have read the whole thread. Congrats Pilot!!
 
tb813 said:
Just wanted to check back in and to thank everybody who gave me some tips and advise! Finally, got my 2nd checkride today (had pretty tough work schedule in the last several weeks, and almost hit the 60 days limit before the 2nd attempt), and passed! YAY :thumbsup:!

Here's what did the trick for me with the steep turns:

  • Look outside!!! Wow - how could I have missed that?.. Looking out of the cockpit most of the time made the steep turns SO MUCH EASIER :)! Only after reading all the comments here I realized how much I was fixating on the instruments during the turn!..
The next 2 points helped too, but to the lesser degree:
  • Add power before starting the turn, don't worry about it during the turn.
  • Roll into the turn quickly - do not hesitate!
I couldn't believe how hard it was for me just a couple months ago, and how easy and smooth my steep turns are now! Thanks again everyone for your helpful hints, and thanks to both CFIs who worked with me and got me to this point. Now it's time to start learning how to fly - and have fun in the process :)!
Click to expand...
Glad it's working out for you! One thing I've found that really helps my students is I tell them to:
1.) Get in perfect straight and level flight
2.) Focus on the horizon and the nose. Really focus on it
3.) Now briskly, but smoothly, rotate the nose around the horizon to the desired bank angle
4.) Hold this attitude and every 5 seconds or so glance at the altimeter
 
Got a checkout in a Warrior III last week. Love the airplane!

Ok, steep turns were a blast! I've always love them in the Cessna and Super Decathlon.
Mine were not bad in the Warrior. The one to the left was perfect, then I rolled into the right turn but over banked to 60° and corrected back to 45°. Lost around 70' and gained about 50' in the rollout.

Ok, here's the thing. I was discussing the checkout with a Facebook friend that is also a PP-ASEL, and I showed him my cockpit video and here's what he said.

"I noticed you move from the left turn directly in the right turn I never do that... That wake could be pretty nasty. An instructor showed me that once you have it trimmed properly you can take your hand off of the yoke during the steep turn ( at least in the Cessna) so that's what I do. But I'd be very careful flying into my own wake"

I was flabbergasted. Are you kidding me:dunno:. In my limited years of flying, I've never heard anyone suggest that flying through your own wake in a small aircraft, could be dangerous. In fact, every instructor I've ever flown with said it was a sign of a properly flown steep turn... Including the one I flew with last week.
 
Moving from the left turn into the right turn immediately at rollout is in the commercial PTS. It's not dangerous in the least. You'll feel a few small bumps unless the air isn't smooth already (which for me, it isn't this time of year) and that's it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Moving from the left turn into the right turn immediately at rollout is in the commercial PTS. It's not dangerous in the least. You'll feel a few small bumps unless the air isn't smooth already (which for me, it isn't this time of year) and that's it.
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Yeah I used to pause between rolling into the opposite turn. Then two years ago I got a checkout with CFI/ATP, and he taught me to roll right into the next turn, so I've done it that way ever since. I guess he was prepping me for greater things :)
 
redtail said:
Got a checkout in a Warrior III last week. Love the airplane!

Ok, steep turns were a blast! I've always love them in the Cessna and Super Decathlon.
Mine were not bad in the Warrior. The one to the left was perfect, then I rolled into the right turn but over banked to 60° and corrected back to 45°. Lost around 70' and gained about 50' in the rollout.

Ok, here's the thing. I was discussing the checkout with a Facebook friend that is also a PP-ASEL, and I showed him my cockpit video and here's what he said.

"I noticed you move from the left turn directly in the right turn I never do that... That wake could be pretty nasty. An instructor showed me that once you have it trimmed properly you can take your hand off of the yoke during the steep turn ( at least in the Cessna) so that's what I do. But I'd be very careful flying into my own wake"

I was flabbergasted. Are you kidding me:dunno:. In my limited years of flying, I've never heard anyone suggest that flying through your own wake in a small aircraft, could be dangerous. In fact, every instructor I've ever flown with said it was a sign of a properly flown steep turn... Including the one I flew with last week.
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Flying through your own wake in a Cherokee is a hardly noticeable non-event. In a 747 maybe not. And FWIW, wakes generally sink at a few hundred FPM so it you finish the turn in your own wake you probably lost a little bit of altitude.:D
 
gismo said:
Flying through your own wake in a Cherokee is a hardly noticeable non-event. In a 747 maybe not. And FWIW, wakes generally sink at a few hundred FPM so it you finish the turn in your own wake you probably lost a little bit of altitude.:D
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No I lost less than a hundred feet. I've just never heard a pilot that's been flying for a few years act like it's so dangerous. You mean to tell me he always avoid flying through his own wake:dunno: I wonder what instructors he's flown with?
 
redtail said:
No I lost less than a hundred feet. I've just never heard a pilot that's been flying for a few years act like it's so dangerous. You mean to tell me he always avoid flying through his own wake:dunno: I wonder what instructors he's flown with?
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Your FB friend is an idiot...and as mentioned has a lot to learn if he ever plans to take a Commercial check ride.

If he learned that from a CFI, that instructor should be shot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Your FB friend is an idiot...and as mentioned has a lot to learn if he ever plans to take a Commercial check ride.

If he learned that from a CFI, that instructor should be shot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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:lol:
Exactly what I was thinking.
Funny thing is, on my video, you can even hear the CFI say something like "flying through your own wake is a good thing".

This Facebook guy seems horrified at the thought:rofl:
Not only that, he just took his flight review a few months ago.
 
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redtail said:
Got a checkout in a Warrior III last week. Love the airplane!

Ok, steep turns were a blast! I've always love them in the Cessna and Super Decathlon.
Mine were not bad in the Warrior. The one to the left was perfect, then I rolled into the right turn but over banked to 60° and corrected back to 45°. Lost around 70' and gained about 50' in the rollout.

Ok, here's the thing. I was discussing the checkout with a Facebook friend that is also a PP-ASEL, and I showed him my cockpit video and here's what he said.

"I noticed you move from the left turn directly in the right turn I never do that... That wake could be pretty nasty. An instructor showed me that once you have it trimmed properly you can take your hand off of the yoke during the steep turn ( at least in the Cessna) so that's what I do. But I'd be very careful flying into my own wake"

I was flabbergasted. Are you kidding me:dunno:. In my limited years of flying, I've never heard anyone suggest that flying through your own wake in a small aircraft, could be dangerous. In fact, every instructor I've ever flown with said it was a sign of a properly flown steep turn... Including the one I flew with last week.
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I always considered hitting my own wake as a measure of perfection.... as did the instructors I flew with.
 
jesse said:
Glad it's working out for you! One thing I've found that really helps my students is I tell them to:
1.) Get in perfect straight and level flight
2.) Focus on the horizon and the nose. Really focus on it
3.) Now briskly, but smoothly, rotate the nose around the horizon to the desired bank angle
4.) Hold this attitude and every 5 seconds or so glance at the altimeter
Click to expand...

I like this method because it take the maneuver down to bare bones.

And of course, my saying that proves to all of you that I perform steep turns with no more than a one-foot deviation in altitude!
 
redtail said:
No I lost less than a hundred feet. I've just never heard a pilot that's been flying for a few years act like it's so dangerous. You mean to tell me he always avoid flying through his own wake:dunno: I wonder what instructors he's flown with?
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I think the sink rate of 300-500 FPM is for heavy jets, I suspect that for a C-172 it's more like 100 FPM and a 45° banked turn at 100 KTAS takes a bit more than half a minute so it's quite believable that you'll hit your own wake if you don't drop more than 100 ft. I was just pointing out the fallacy in the common belief that you will hit that wake if you fly the steep turn "perfectly".

But I too am amazed that any pilot would fear their own wake in anything lighter than a big jet.
 
RoscoeT said:
Sounds like you might be overcomplicating it. Don't worry too much about airspeed, trim, or the power setting. Get in the habit of doing your steep turns at the same bank angle. Now all you have to do is learn the spot on cowling that must remain on the horizon during the turn...and don't let it move up or down! It's all about sight picture. To learn the sight picture, you need to corroborate with the altitimeter or VSI to check for altitude gain/loss, but once you learn the sight picture, you won't need to look much at the instruments. Don't change your trim...too many variables, and not necessary unless you just don't have the physical strength to hold the yoke in position. You will add power in response to the feel of the yoke becoming slack and your airspeed deteriorating during the turn. Do it by feel...and keep the spot on the horizon. Forget about the ASI. You should be able to feel in the yoke if you are getting too slow and close to stalling. The addition of power will not change anything related to the sight picture.
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:yeahthat:
 
wabower said:
We will never agree on this subject. I teach finger-tip pressure, not biceps strength fo flying airplanes. Failure to use trim is a bust.
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Agreed. When one tries to use their biceps to fly a steep turn, you get that unpleasent increase in G's (more pull=more load factor). I teach smooth, elegant flying, which is the result of a properly trimmed airplane. In a 172 I teach 2 turns of nose up trim, a smooth roll into a 45 degree bank, and full power (it takes all you have at the DAs we operate at here) once established in the turn to maintain speed.
 
I see that entry speed wasnt mentioned. For my PPL practical I entered at Va
 
GCA319 said:
Agreed. When one tries to use their biceps to fly a steep turn, you get that unpleasent increase in G's (more pull=more load factor). I teach smooth, elegant flying, which is the result of a properly trimmed airplane. In a 172 I teach 2 turns of nose up trim, a smooth roll into a 45 degree bank, and full power (it takes all you have at the DAs we operate at here) once established in the turn to maintain speed.
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When I learned to fly, trim was never used in a steep turn. Of course there's not all that much elevator force in a 150. But if you don't trim out the pressure, you have to pay very close attention to your pitch attitude because you can't "feel" what the plane is doing.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I see that entry speed wasnt mentioned. For my PPL practical I entered at Va
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That's what the PTS calls for. Some airplanes (150 Aerobat for instance)have a reccomended entry speed that is higher than VA-I'll have to check with our DPE to see what he thinks about that.
 
PTS says "Establishes the manufacturer's recommended airspeed or if one is not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed Va."
 
...then why did I have to figure that out on my own?
:mad2:
 
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