steep turns

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cirrusmx

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Who here hate steep turns?

I can easily do them spot on, but when asked by a DPE on a checkride I tend to overconcentrate and bust them or complete them within PTS, but in a not so elegant manner.

Any similar experiences?
 
Do you add power and nose-up trim?

cirrusmx said:
Who here hate steep turns?

I can easily do them spot on, but when asked by a DPE on a checkride I tend to overconcentrate and bust them or complete them within PTS, but in a not so elegant manner.

Any similar experiences?
Click to expand...
 
I don't like doing 45s as stated in the PTS. I actually think 60 degrees is a bit easier to do. I don't know, it just seems that once you get it "notched" at 60 it just wants to stay there. Maybe you're inside the cockpit a little too much and not getting a good visual picture of the nose with the horizon???
 
Should be a non-event. Steeper bank, higher AOA to maintain altitude, higher power to maintain airspeed to counteract the drag of the higher AoA... Forget the checkride, steep turns are an excellent lesson in aerodynamics.
 
Start them right and don't let them get out of shape - make little corrections immediately as needed. Feel that bobble when you run over your own wake! :)
 
cirrusmx said:
Who here hate steep turns?

I can easily do them spot on, but when asked by a DPE on a checkride I tend to overconcentrate and bust them or complete them within PTS, but in a not so elegant manner.

Any similar experiences?
Click to expand...

Love them. But I didn't used to, they scared me. But after more practice on my own and then an aerobatics course, they became very tame. While keeping a visual scan going of the instruments worked during training, I now find that nothing works as well as just keeping your eyes outside, keeping the nose where you want it relative to the horizon, and using your eyes and ears and body to know what the airplane is doing. I don't have to concentrate as hard, I feel more connected to the airplane that way. It's more intuitive. I still glance at the instrumnents to check myself, but it's mostly eyes outside.
 
jnmeade said:
Feel that bobble when you run over your own wake! :)
Click to expand...

And since the wake sinks, it means that you descended a little in the turn.

Notice that right-hand turns seem harder than left-hand. The propeller`s gyroscopic precession pulls the nose down in the RH turn and helps hold it up in the LH. If your airplane has a European engine that turns the other way, the opposite is true. And then you have to hold left rudder on takeoff, too.

Dan
 
Go do about a hunnerd of 'em, and you'll be all better.
 
ChrisK said:
:frog: lots of steep turns in a row make me green....
Click to expand...

Glider pilots call it thermalling.

Actually I like them in power also, I like to try them entirely visually and then check to see if I am still in PTS standards after I complete it.

Brian
 
wabower said:
Do you add power and nose-up trim?
Click to expand...

I sucked at steep turns, and my primary instructor did not tell me about adding trim or power right away. In fact, she never mentioned trim at all, and only mentioned power as something to add while already in the turn. Accordingly, my steep turns sucked.

During one of my last stage checks with one of the club's more experienced instructors, after witnessing a particularly bad example of a steep turn, he ask me how I was doing them. He then proceeded to tell me to add 100rpm with the throttle and two turns of nose-up trim (C-172) right at the beginning. Ever since then, steep turns have been a non-issue.
 
brcase said:
Glider pilots call it thermalling.
Click to expand...

Last week I took one of the guys in my glider club for a ride in a Warrior. He's PP-Glider and has ridden in, but not flown, a powered plane. I asked if there was something he wanted to try and the first thing he said was, "steep turns". So I let him, and he rolled into a turn and turned and turned and turned...

He didn't get to 45 deg, just a little shy. Not bad for the first time. I showed him what 60 deg turns look and feel like, and his next set of turns were closer to 45, but still not quite there.
 
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My unsolicited technique:

Roll into bank and hold that no matter what. You need a constant when doing these and bank is it. Hold 45 degrees and hold it firm. Let the altitude go up or down thousands of feet if you must...but hold that bank.

Once the bank is fixed, hard fixed, then adjust pitch to hold altitude. Don't worry about speed so much. (don't stall, but you know what I mean). We're building here. We already have bank wired. Now we're going to get the pitch thing worked out. Go around a few times with you're perfect bank and adjust pitch to hold altitude. Obviously you know it takes more pitch in the bank than when level. Look very closely at the AI and see the exact pitch...exact. Yes, it's a visual manuver so look outside too. Look at the horizon and see the exact spot on the cowel where the horizon cuts.

Once you have bank and pitch fixed the only thing left is speed. Adjust power to maintain speed. Easy peezy. Should take a little bump when you start and need that bump taken out at the end.

Don't forget to roll out in heading. Use cardinal headings and use your HSI needle to help.
 
wabower said:
Do you add power and nose-up trim?
Click to expand...


:lol:

I'm laughing becuase Wayne is the one who came and flew with me to help me improve my steep turns and a few other of the basic maneuvers.

I already had been trying to trim for them, but he had me add a touch of power sometimes, and even showed how to make microscopic throttle setting changes. More importantly although others had told me to just set in the angle and hold it, he SHOWED me how to set it in and hold it.

He said something like, put in the angle and then hold the horizon on some marker, like a rivet or the edge of the panel or something. After he had flown with me, showed me this (and also let me fly his BEAUTIFUL 180) and then went home, I got back in the air and went to the practice area. I did a few of the maneuvers he had taught me to etch them in my brain with no one else in the plane and never worried about them again. I nailed them on the checkride.

When I did the 720 on the checkride, the DPE let me go straight & level and go into the turns when I was ready. I knew about how much trim to add, so I put it in just before I flipped it over to 45 degrees and might have added a touch of trim or power once in the turn. Then I just held the horizon on a point I had picked and turned all the way around. When I saw my marker I flipped it to 45 degrees in the other direction and glanced at the altimeter and saw that I was within probably 20 feet so I just held the horizon on that spot and figured that I had 80 feet of cushion. When I came around again I was still very close to my original altitude.

The important thing is to trim, and consider the power an extra amount of trim if you need it. Don't chase the gauges when you're doing this. Just hold the angle and don't let the horizon go up or down.

If Wayne could fly with you, you would have them to a whole new level of precision in no time, but just practice and do it. Make us proud.
 
Dan Thomas said:
And since the wake sinks, it means that you descended a little in the turn.
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I heard this before but have some questions:
How long does it take to sink? Has it sunk enough to not affect the aircraft? Remeber you have 2 wings that have to come back through it, then there's prop wash and each wingtip is also producing vortices....

Personally, I make it a goal to feel the thump as I come around. Puts a smile on my face.
 
On a 172, the spinner should be pointed at the horizon. While in the bank, if the nose drifts up or down the horizon, remember that the rudder and elevator are both at a 45 degree angle from the horizon, so it's going to require both to correct it.

When making a left steep turn, if the spinner starts moving below the horizon, use right rudder and up elevator to fix it. If the spinner moves to far up, use down elevator and left rudder to fix it. Flip those rudder positions for right steep turns.

The trick is to separate pitch and yaw in your mind, and do what it takes to keep that spinner aimed right at the horizon while holding the 45 degree bank with ailerons. With this technique I'm able to hold altitude within 50 feet. It should work on any plane, although the position of the nose relative to the horizon would probably be different.
 
MassPilot said:
On a 172, the spinner should be pointed at the horizon. While in the bank, if the nose drifts up or down the horizon, remember that the rudder and elevator are both at a 45 degree angle from the horizon, so it's going to require both to correct it.

When making a left steep turn, if the spinner starts moving below the horizon, use right rudder and up elevator to fix it. If the spinner moves to far up, use down elevator and left rudder to fix it. Flip those rudder positions for right steep turns.

The trick is to separate pitch and yaw in your mind, and do what it takes to keep that spinner aimed right at the horizon while holding the 45 degree bank with ailerons. With this technique I'm able to hold altitude within 50 feet. It should work on any plane, although the position of the nose relative to the horizon would probably be different.
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Hasn't been my experience; and the sight picture differs on left vs right turns. IIRC, level with the cowl works on left turns and ~1/3 up from the spinner on right turns. But it's been awhile since I've done steep turns.....man, I need to do some airwork:rolleyes2:
 
I'd be very hesitant to use the rudder to control anything but the ball.

Hold a constent bank. Key.

Then adjust pitch with elevator and speed with power. Be exact with all. 4 degrees pitch is different that 4.5. 45 degrees is different than 47. Be exact and make bank a constant. Pitch and power are the only things you adjust.
 
Matthew said:
Last week I took one of the guys in my glider club for a ride in a Warrior. He's PP-Glider and has ridden in, but not flown, a powered plane. I asked if there was something he wanted to try and the first thing he said was, "steep turns". So I let him, and he rolled into a turn and turned and turned and turned...

He didn't get to 45 deg, just a little shy. Not bad for the first time. I showed him what 60 deg turns look and feel like, and his next set of turns were closer to 45, but still not quite there.
Click to expand...

And while glider pilots don't try to hold altitude obviously we do them usually only a few knots above stall speed (minimum sink speed) and often do them in formation with other gliders. It even takes a while for glider pilots to learn that 45 and even 60 degree banks are needed stay in the core of some thermals. Also add a lot of adverse yaw to make it even more interesting.

I went looking for a photo of a gaggle of sailplanes in a thermal. I didn't find the one I was looking for but the video below shows a couple pretty good shots of glider thermalling together at the 3:29 and 4:21 mark. Also not some bad shots of gliders doing steep turns(thermalling) if you are watching for them.


http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/soaring/5741-neat-video-gaggle-gliders-thermal.html

Brian
 
good tips, I am might go out this weekend and try them. I am looking forward to get my comm rating and I need to sharpen my stick and rudder flying.

Its not that I don't know how to do them or can't do them. It just happens that when I get asked by a DPE I tend to overthink and overcontrol everything leading to my temporary aeronautical demise.

Also, I agree that there's nothing better than a extra smooth unnoticable landing, a succesfully flown instrument apporach in IMC to minimums, or nailing the altitude and going through your own wake on steep turns other than being with your SO.:rofl::rofl:
 
darrell said:
He then proceeded to tell me to add 100rpm with the throttle and two turns of nose-up trim (C-172) right at the beginning. Ever since then, steep turns have been a non-issue.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what everyone is teaching? We always did. In fact, in a 172 we went to full power (from cruise) in the steep turn to maintain the cruise airspeed. The bigger issue was reducing the power promptly as you rolled level to avoid gaining altitude. We didn't mess with the trim, as that just aggravated the altitude excursion on rollout.

Dan
 
I always taught to add a smidgin. I never bothered the student with trying to add 100 rpm. A little bit of a finger's width is enough. Same way I taught the ADF, except that there's it's a pencil-width.
 
I think most CFI's would agree that the most-common mistake starts with the loss of altitude that occurs just after the OAO load is fully imposed. I expect to see it within the first 90 degrees or the first circle or whenever his pulling arm gets tired, whichever comes first. A graceful and gradual recovery from that deviation is somewhat unlikely, and the jaw-sagging additional G-forces necessary to do so can't possibly go un-noticed by the guy in the right seat.

I teach power and trim for several reasons:

1. The maneuver can be a valuable teaching tool for a number of concepts. Most students underutilize the trim wheel, and in little airplanes they can (largely) get by with this deficiency. Steep turns present the opportunity to learn both need and value. They are required to trim and un-trim while doing other things, as will be required for their entire flying career. The other good lessons are the use of forward pressure that must be temporarily applied at the roll-out point between left and right circles. The student must roll wings level and temporarily add forward pressure until ~20 deg bank in the opposite direction with the understanding that it's easier to just hold it for a few seconds than to change anything .

2. I don't want a student to bust the checkride by screwing up an otherwise simple maneuver. If they're ahead rather than behind the aerodynamic performance the plane will exhibit, the opportunities to screw it up are fewer.

3. The pilots with whom I have flown as CFI, check airman or examiner have demonstrated the dread and lack of understanding of the fundamentals they should have learned during PPL training.

4. If the student moves on to bigger airplanes, the prcedures will be identical to those he learned in the little bird.

5. The DPE's that I've used like to see the tangible evdience that the pilot understands these concepts and uses the flight controls to make the job easier. I'm not sure if that's universally true, but don't think any of them take off points for good technique.

Dan Thomas said:
Isn't that what everyone is teaching? We always did. In fact, in a 172 we went to full power (from cruise) in the steep turn to maintain the cruise airspeed. The bigger issue was reducing the power promptly as you rolled level to avoid gaining altitude. We didn't mess with the trim, as that just aggravated the altitude excursion on rollout.

Dan
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
I think most CFI's would agree that the most-common mistake starts with the loss of altitude that occurs just after the OAO load is fully imposed. I expect to see it within the first 90 degrees or the first circle or whenever his pulling arm gets tired, whichever comes first. A graceful and gradual recovery from that deviation is somewhat unlikely, and the jaw-sagging additional G-forces necessary to do so can't possibly go un-noticed by the guy in the right seat.

I teach power and trim for several reasons....
Click to expand...

The Canadian Flight Instructor Guide: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp975-partii-ex9-5488.htm

Just a few snips of what it has to say about the steep turn and what's expected:

(8) Steep turns.
  1. Explain:

  1. why additional lift must be produced as angle of bank is increased;
  2. how drag increases as lift is increased;
  3. why power must be added if speed is to be maintained;
Advice to Instructors

(6) During turns, emphasize that the elevators control the attitude of the nose and that any attempt to raise the nose with the rudder will cause a slip.

(7) A faulty turn may often be traced to inaccurate flying just before entry; therefore, until competency is achieved, insist that the student flies straight and level before commencing any level turn.
(8) Make sure the student appreciates and counteracts the detrimental forces of gyroscopic and slipstream effect in climbing and descending turns.


Demonstrate:

  1. use of power to maintain constant pre-selected airspeed — constant altitude;
  2. consequences of not adding power — loss of airspeed;
  3. bank and power limitations;


And from the flight test standards for the PPL, we see this:

Flight Test Exercises - Ex. 9 - Steep Turn


Aim
To determine the candidate's ability to perform a level and coordinated steep turn.
Description
The candidate will be asked to execute a steep turn through 360º, with an angle of bank of 45º, using a pre-selected and prominent geographic point as a heading reference. The examiner will specify the airspeed, altitude and geographic reference point prior to entering the turn.
Performance Criteria
Assessment will be based on the candidate's ability to:

  1. perform and maintain an effective lookout before and during the turn;
  2. roll into and out of turns, using smooth and coordinated pitch, bank, yaw and power control
  3. roll into a coordinated turn with an angle of bank of 45º;
  4. maintain coordinated flight;
  5. maintain the selected altitude (±100 feet), airspeed (±10 knots) and angle of bank (±10º);
  6. visually recover from the turn at the pre-selected recovery reference point (±10º).
There is no way to meet the airspeed criteria without adding power. We used to get the student to aim for perfection, not the 100-foot/10-kt parameters, and on the flight test it was a non-event.


Dan
 
Do you think we disagree about adding power? Do you think the added power eliminates required back presssure during the maneuver?



Dan Thomas said:
The Canadian Flight Instructor Guide: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp975-partii-ex9-5488.htm

Just a few snips of what it has to say about the steep turn and what's expected:

(8) Steep turns.
  1. Explain:

  1. why additional lift must be produced as angle of bank is increased;
  2. how drag increases as lift is increased;
  3. why power must be added if speed is to be maintained;
Advice to Instructors

(6) During turns, emphasize that the elevators control the attitude of the nose and that any attempt to raise the nose with the rudder will cause a slip.

(7) A faulty turn may often be traced to inaccurate flying just before entry; therefore, until competency is achieved, insist that the student flies straight and level before commencing any level turn.
(8) Make sure the student appreciates and counteracts the detrimental forces of gyroscopic and slipstream effect in climbing and descending turns.


Demonstrate:

  1. use of power to maintain constant pre-selected airspeed — constant altitude;
  2. consequences of not adding power — loss of airspeed;
  3. bank and power limitations;


And from the flight test standards for the PPL, we see this:

Flight Test Exercises - Ex. 9 - Steep Turn


Aim
To determine the candidate's ability to perform a level and coordinated steep turn.
Description
The candidate will be asked to execute a steep turn through 360º, with an angle of bank of 45º, using a pre-selected and prominent geographic point as a heading reference. The examiner will specify the airspeed, altitude and geographic reference point prior to entering the turn.
Performance Criteria
Assessment will be based on the candidate's ability to:

  1. perform and maintain an effective lookout before and during the turn;
  2. roll into and out of turns, using smooth and coordinated pitch, bank, yaw and power control
  3. roll into a coordinated turn with an angle of bank of 45º;
  4. maintain coordinated flight;
  5. maintain the selected altitude (±100 feet), airspeed (±10 knots) and angle of bank (±10º);
  6. visually recover from the turn at the pre-selected recovery reference point (±10º).
There is no way to meet the airspeed criteria without adding power. We used to get the student to aim for perfection, not the 100-foot/10-kt parameters, and on the flight test it was a non-event.


Dan
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Do you think we disagree about adding power? Do you think the added power eliminates required back presssure during the maneuver?
Click to expand...

I went back and had another look. I had replied to the wrong post; I meant to reply to Doug's. He teaches adding a smidgen of power, not 100 RPM, and I have found that to maintain the airspeed it will take 100 RPM or much more. In some aircraft we had to establish a speed somewhat lower than cruise so that the full throttle could maintain it in the turn. Steep turns add a lot of drag.

No, we don't disagree except on the use of trim. I didn't use trim in the turn. Biceps are for that.

Curiously, the R182 (182RG) needs almost no back pressure in the steep turn. Cessna did something right, there. Don't know what.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
No, we don't disagree except on the use of trim. I didn't use trim in the turn. Biceps are for that.

Curiously, the R182 (182RG) needs almost no back pressure in the steep turn. Cessna did something right, there. Don't know what.

Dan
Click to expand...

We will never agree on this subject. I teach finger-tip pressure, not biceps strength for flying airplanes. Failure to use trim is a bust.
 
Thought of this thread today as I was up and about. Heard Wayne's dulcet tones in my head as I added power, rolled in some trim, and nailed a few 60* bank turns. Good times... :)

Now, back to yer bickering.
 
wabower said:
We will never agree on this subject. I teach finger-tip pressure, not biceps strength for flying airplanes. Failure to use trim is a bust.
Click to expand...

Not for a temporary condition such as a turn. I was also taught not to trim in a steep turn.

My procedure is to clear the area, start the turn, verify the bank angle. Now check the alignment of the cowling on the horizon. Pull slightly on the yoke, rudder input and feel the Gs in the turn. Monitor cowling alignment, VSI trend, altitude and bank angle. Roll out 15 degrees before on course heading. Push slightly on the yoke to prevent ballooning.

This works. There isn't just one way to fly.
 
It's also the most common reason students flunk steep turns. How much time is required to complete a steep turn in each direction? Are you saying your arm is a more predictable and consistent method of maintaining a constant airfoil deflection than a cable and bellcrank for that period of time?

I don't care how many different ways the maneuver can be flown, only the way that causes the best results and causes the fewest pink slips or re-trains. How many thousand steep turns would you estimate that you've watched?




bflynn said:
Not for a temporary condition such as a turn. I was also taught not to trim in a steep turn.

My procedure is to clear the area, start the turn, verify the bank angle. Now check the alignment of the cowling on the horizon. Pull slightly on the yoke, rudder input and feel the Gs in the turn. Monitor cowling alignment, VSI trend, altitude and bank angle. Roll out 15 degrees before on course heading. Push slightly on the yoke to prevent ballooning.

This works. There isn't just one way to fly.
Click to expand...
 
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I fly a pretty tight steep turn and I don't trim. By pretty tight I mean within 20 feet. Normally the VSI just sits there steady.
 
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cirrusmx said:
Who here hate steep turns?

I can easily do them spot on, but when asked by a DPE on a checkride I tend to overconcentrate and bust them or complete them within PTS, but in a not so elegant manner.

Any similar experiences?
Click to expand...

Nope, none at all. 'Roll, pull flick flick, full throttle flick once more then trim for 2G then at the predetermined lead pull throttle to cruise, roll out while flick flick flicking the trim to take out the push as I accelerate in speed.
 
I like them too - and I don't have any trouble flying them the way I described because I'm familiar with the aircraft.

I'm not so egocentric that I don't recognize there are other ways to do it.
 
Lol, flying is like anything else, there more than one way to do anything, but if one way is easy to manage repeatable good result where you have a positive risk:benefit analysis. "Stabilized approaches" are another good example in a single. The flexibility in control allows for very consistent good result where as the risk of losing a good running engine on final is very low. If you do lose it though, you don't make the runway and what kills people is stretching the glide.

The key to it all though is the one that produces the best result with the machine doing the work rather than the operator is the right one for general use. If you are fighting the plane in any of it you are doing something wrong in the set up. Most people screw it up with reduced flaps.
 
wabower said:
We will never agree on this subject. I teach finger-tip pressure, not biceps strength for flying airplanes. Failure to use trim is a bust.
Click to expand...

Flying the airplane with trim was a lazy pilot's thing when I learned to fly. It's to remove the back pressure for extended periods. Rolling in trim in a steep turn is just going to aggravate the tendency to climb in the rollout, and so you have to push forward hard and hold it while you roll the trim out. Not worth it for six or eight seconds in the turn, in my view.

Dan
 
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