Stadium TFRs?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by NoBShere, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    143
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NoBShere
    So do I have this correct? If a towered airport lies within a stadium TFR and I want to takeoff to go to dinner outside the TFR and then return all while the TFR is in effect (not sure that the TFR will be in effect for the return flight but maybe), I just need to talk to tower prior to entering TFR area on return (takeoff is a given)? They may or may not give me a squawk code. Is there a possibility that the tower could tell me "no" on the return?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  2. wilkersk

    wilkersk Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,759
    Location:
    Puget Sound
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KennyW
    Well, you need to have been cleared or reasonably expect clearance, as in "Bugsmasher 1234 report crossing 520 bridge, expect left base runway 16L."

    ---Not sure just talking to them meets the intent.

    I don't think the Stadium TFR would give cause for them to refuse your request to enter class D.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  3. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    5,269
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    yes but it doesn't hurt to be explicit. ("Tower, Skyhawk 12345, 3000 over Lake Albert with information hotel for landing through the stadium TFR")
    TFR or not there's always a slim chance they can say "aircraft calling over the lake remain outside my airspace". I've had that happen without a TFR.
     
  4. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    837
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    You also have to be on a flight plan.
     
  5. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    5,269
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
  6. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,199
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Ask the tower directly.
     
  7. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    837
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    I don't have time to look it up now but it's my understanding that to operate in a TFR you must be on a flight plan. (IFR or VFR) It doesn't say it in the NOTAM but in the FAR's I think. I've heard of other people that have had to open a flight plan on the ground inside a TFR before they take off. I MAY BE WRONG SO LOOK IT UP BEFORE YOU GO!!! Good luck!!!
     
  8. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    143
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NoBShere
    Haha. Well coming to POA cleared things up!
     
    Stephen Poole likes this.
  9. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    7,339
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    My understanding is different than @lancie00's The stadium TFR at CLL (aka Texas A&M Aggieland) does not require a flight plan, but it does prohibit transient and training operations.

    So, I've been inbound VFR many times, with no filed plan, but intending full stop there and no issues.

    Also, returning on Saturdays sometimes includes flying through the Stadium TFR for the TCU Horned Frogs. Again, no flight plan needed, just don't loiter in the TFR space.
     
    NoBShere likes this.
  10. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    They normally don’t care, might ask you to just not fly directly over the game, just ask, 9/10 no biggie, most I’ve crossed I haven’t been on a flight plan or anything, it’s not some of the more serious TFRs, just talk before you enter.
     
    NoBShere likes this.
  11. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    5,633
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    No clearance is required. Any ATC instruction that send you thru works.
     
    NoBShere likes this.
  12. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    24,371
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    But what if you're inbound (or outbound) and towing a banner ?
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  13. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    Miami
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    alfadog
    It just says to follow ATC instructions:

    A) THE AIRCRAFT OPERATION HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AUTHORIZATION OF FLIGHTS SPECIFICALLY ARRIVING AT OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT DESIGNATED BY ATC USING STANDARD ATC PROCEDURES AND ROUTES

    Also:

    PILOTS MUST CONTINUOUSLY SQUAWK AN ATC-ASSIGNED BEACON CODE AND MAINTAIN 2-WAY RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC WHILE OPERATING IN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE.

    I would not overthink it.
     
    NoBShere likes this.
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    7,787
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    That’s it. Well, besides just talking to the Tower, ya gotta do what they say. They can tell you no. They can tell anyone no anytime, TFR or not. But they don’t do it indiscriminately. The purpose of them is to just avoid fluster clucks of sightseeing planes crowding the sky over the Stadiums. Towers may adjust typical flows of traffic like downwinds on the other side than usual etc. May turn down practice approaches, stuff like that.
     
    NoBShere likes this.
  15. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    7,847
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    If you're making a straight-in to 16L/R at KBFI during a Mariners game you're gonna be going almost right over the stadium. Not that you'd care much to see it, given the way they played this year ... :(:rolleyes:
     
  16. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    143
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NoBShere
    Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.
     
  17. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2019
    Messages:
    425
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mr Madman
    I think you’re confusing stadium tfr’s with Canada overflights.
     
  18. Todd82

    Todd82 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Location:
    Southwest Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Todd
    It's pretty far out, but ILS/straight ins to the 28's at PIT go right over both PNC Park and Heinz Field. A few blowout Pirates games I'll watch the 737's and RJ's instead of the game. Hospital helipad right behind the stadiums too.
     
  19. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    23,567
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Right. "Talking" is not necessarily "Authorization" the way it is for a regular class C or D operation. Following an ATC instruction is, and the NOTAM used to read a bit closer to that.

    Negative on the flight plan. I think POTUS TFRs might, but there aren't any right now for me to check. Stadium TFRs do not require a flight plan.
     
  20. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    Miami
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    alfadog
    Deal with the VIP TFR frequently out of KLNA. It is in the inner circle and is shut down. TFR reads that you must be on a filed flight plan (VFR or IFR) and squawking a discrete code to enter the outer ring. Talking to ATC also, no doubt. A lot of folks there use F45 during TFRs, it is in the outer ring and I was flying back after repairing a customer's Cherokee 6 that was stranded in New Smyrna. I was flying an Archer. Anyway, I made the mistake of asking the customer, who did it frequently, what is the procedure for landing at F45. "Just talk to ATC and get a code." Which I did and they had no problem with that but it was wrong and bad advice and shame on me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  21. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    837
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    My apologies, I was obviously wrong. I don't know where I got the idea that you needed to be on a flight plan. Probably just was thinking about a discrete code.
     
  22. clarkmueller

    clarkmueller Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2012
    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Clark
    A) THE AIRCRAFT OPERATION HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AUTHORIZATION OF FLIGHTS SPECIFICALLY ARRIVING AT OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT DESIGNATED BY ATC USING STANDARD ATC PROCEDURES AND ROUTES

    This section of the sporting event TFR used to end with "for operational or safety purposes." I'm not sure when they changed the text, but it seems reasonable to conclude that the FAA has added the latter part specifically to answer this question, and clarify that arrivals and departures are permitted. IME that's how most towers treated it before.
     
  23. The Skywriters

    The Skywriters Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The Skywriters
    Typically a TFR is scheduled to start an hour an half before and hour and half after game time. If you have a banner you have to stay minimally 3 miles away from the stadium's TFR. These TFR's are a result of 9/11 when they were put in affect.
     
  24. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    24,371
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Sarcasm: Missed.
     
  25. Mike I

    Mike I Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    NYC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike I
    Nope, not 90 minutes... 60 minutes.

    "THIS FLIGHT PROHIBITION IS IN EFFECT ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED START UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF A QUALIFYING EVENT."
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  26. The Skywriters

    The Skywriters Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The Skywriters
    haha...got it!
     
  27. The Skywriters

    The Skywriters Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The Skywriters
    yes, correct! It is 1 hour before and 1 hour after.
     
  28. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    23,567
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    They weren't put into effect right away after 9/11, and let's be honest, they have nothing at all to do with security.

    However, the frenzy of paranoia surrounding 9/11 is certainly what led to their creation. The major sports leagues saw their opportunity to eliminate the one source of ad revenue that they had no control over and got no cut of, and started screaming "Security! The sky is falling!" to lawmakers while pushing money into their campaign coffers, and we got the joke that is the stadium TFR.

    Three miles isn't for "security". A freaking 150 would be through the TFR and crashed in the stadium (if that's what we're supposed to be protecting people from) before any responders would have even gotten the call, much less got in their aircraft, fired up, and flew to the stadium. It is solely there to get rid of the banner towers.
     
  29. The Skywriters

    The Skywriters Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The Skywriters
    It did get rid of the banner planes and shut down a lot of banner towing businesses that had been operating for over 30 plus years.
     
  30. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,551
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    And hence you know why Stadiums and Disney managed to get their own TFRs. Disney and major league sports don't want to lose their advertising monopolies on the venue.
     
  31. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,975
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    danhagan
    That's presidential ... all others talking and squawking will do fine.

    I got aimed directly THROUGH the Disney TFR by SoCal each time I was flying Fullerton to Catalina ... confirmed it each time and controller said cleared through "for the view" ... although only the Matahorn is recognizable, the rest just looks like factory roof tops.
     
    lancie00 likes this.