Sports Pilot logging hours in a non-LSA aircraft?

MachFly

MachFly

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MachFly
A buddy of mine is getting a sports pilot certificate. So we've been wondering, as a sports pilot if he flies with me in a non-LSA aircraft (but still ASEL) will he be able to log hours (if I don't)?
The way I understand it is he will be rated in airplane single engine land, however sports pilot certificate only allows him to fly LSA aircraft so he won't be able to be a PIC. Now logging PIC and being a PIC is different, so will he be able to log PIC?

Thanks
 
Forgot that my ratings are not in the sig any more. Not a CFI, C-ASEL/AMEL.
 
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The only way he could log PIC is if he has the proper endorsements to do so (from a non-LSA CFI), and since you're not a CFI you would be considered a passenger -- which he wouldn't be permitted to carry.

*That's my not-a-CFI-either understanding of how things work.
 
What if the OP is under the hood and the SP is acting as safety...
 
From one of FAA's letters of interpretation:

Section 61.51 (e) governs the logging of PIC time and states, in relevant part, that a sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time for the time during which that
pilot is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has
privileges." The term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the
appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required), and these
ratings are listed in 14 C.F.R. § 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.
Click to expand...


So the sports pilot will be rated in category (airplane, §61.5(b)(1)(i)) and will be rated in class (single-engine land, §61.5(b)(2)(i)), a type rating will not be required.


From the FAA:
There is a distinction between logging PIC time and acting as a PIC. For a pilot to log PIC
time (i.e., the sole manipulator of the controls), a pilot must be properly rated in the aircraft
by having the appropriate category, class, and type ratings. For a pilot to act as a PIC (i.e.,
the pilot who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight),
a pilot must be properly rated in the aircraft and be properly rated and authorized to conduct the flight.
Click to expand...


Looking at all of this I don't see why the sport pilot won't be able to log time. Am I missing something?
 
MachFly said:
From one of FAA's letters of interpretation:




So the sports pilot will be rated in category (airplane, §61.5(b)(1)(i)) and will be rated in class (single-engine land, §61.5(b)(2)(i)), a type rating will not be required.


From the FAA:



Looking at all of this I don't see why the sport pilot won't be able to log time. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...


From my understanding (and how a few inspectors have explained it to me), to shotgun hours under the safety pilot rules, both safety pilot and flying pilot need to be able to act as PIC, my understanding is a sport pilot can't fly a non-lsa plane as the PIC, thus your scenario won't work and he can't log it.
 
The way I understand is the student SP can learn and log in any airplane he or she chooses but has to take the check ride in LSA .
 
Actually a student SP can only log dual instruction in an non-LSA aircraft, no solo time. So basically a student SP can log dual instruction in a non-LSA aircraft up to the point that he/she does his/her first solo.
 
MachFly said:
So the sports pilot will be rated in category (airplane, §61.5(b)(1)(i)) and will be rated in class (single-engine land, §61.5(b)(2)(i)), a type rating will not be required.
Click to expand...

I do not believe that is the case.
§ 61.317 Is my sport pilot certificate issued with aircraft category and class ratings?

Your sport pilot certificate does not list aircraft category and class ratings. When you successfully pass the practical test for a sport pilot certificate, regardless of the light-sport aircraft privileges you seek, the FAA will issue you a sport pilot certificate without any category and class ratings. The FAA will provide you with a logbook endorsement for the category and class of aircraft in which you are authorized to act as pilot in command.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I do not believe that is the case.
§ 61.317 Is my sport pilot certificate issued with aircraft category and class ratings?

Your sport pilot certificate does not list aircraft category and class ratings. When you successfully pass the practical test for a sport pilot certificate, regardless of the light-sport aircraft privileges you seek, the FAA will issue you a sport pilot certificate without any category and class ratings. The FAA will provide you with a logbook endorsement for the category and class of aircraft in which you are authorized to act as pilot in command.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. Going a step further, if you look at the 61.51 sole manipulator rule, it makes a special provisions for sport pilot "privileges" since sport pilots don't have category/class ratings. A sort pilot who has the endorsements to operate a single-engine LSA, has an endorsement, but is not "rated."

I'm not curious enough in this case to look for a formal answer, but I think your analysis makes (regulatory) sense.
 
ChitDisturber said:
From my understanding (and how a few inspectors have explained it to me), to shotgun hours under the safety pilot rules, both safety pilot and flying pilot need to be able to act as PIC, my understanding is a sport pilot can't fly a non-lsa plane as the PIC, thus your scenario won't work and he can't log it.
Click to expand...

Nah I'm not trying to get both people to log hours, just the sports pilot.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I do not believe that is the case.
§ 61.317 Is my sport pilot certificate issued with aircraft category and class ratings?

Your sport pilot certificate does not list aircraft category and class ratings. When you successfully pass the practical test for a sport pilot certificate, regardless of the light-sport aircraft privileges you seek, the FAA will issue you a sport pilot certificate without any category and class ratings. The FAA will provide you with a logbook endorsement for the category and class of aircraft in which you are authorized to act as pilot in command.
Click to expand...

So what does it say on the back of your sports pilot certificate? It can't just be blank...

Will you need to get a logbook endorsement for every plane then (like a student pilot)?
 
MachFly said:
So what does it say on the back of your sports pilot certificate? It can't just be blank...

Will you need to get a logbook endorsement for every plane then (like a student pilot)?
Click to expand...

Not a clue about what is on the back - I have a p.p. but have given up on FAA medicals.

IIRC you have to get endorsements for land / sea/ fast / slow / weight shift/ glider and some other stuff - but not make and model.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Not a clue about what is on the back - I have a p.p. but have given up on FAA medicals.

IIRC you have to get endorsements for land / sea/ fast / slow / weight shift/ glider and some other stuff - but not make and model.
Click to expand...

Roger, thanks.
 
Do you guys now if there is anyone active on the forum who actually has a sports pilot certificate or an instructor who teaches sports pilots?
 
Concorde said:
The way I understand is the student SP can learn and log in any airplane he or she chooses but has to take the check ride in LSA .
Click to expand...

You mean a checkout or a check ride (FAA practical test)?
 
If the plane meets LSA specs OR he has a current medical AND is signed off to fly that plane solo, he should be able to log PIC time even if a rated pilot is aboard. If he can't legally solo that plane, then legally he can't be PIC.
 
SoloEqs said:
If the plane meets LSA specs OR he has a current medical AND is signed off to fly that plane solo, he should be able to log PIC time even if a rated pilot is aboard. If he can't legally solo that plane, then legally he can't be PIC.
Click to expand...

You don't have to be able to be PIC to log PIC. For example, a P.P. with an expired medical and/or expired flight review can LOG pic as sole manipulator if they are rated in catagory and class - see the EdFred chart. (Yes, someone else has to be along to ACT as PIC.)

The question is - does an actual sport pilot have the catagory and class ratings to allow logging as sole manipulator? I suspect not.
 
MachFly said:
You mean a checkout or a check ride (FAA practical test)?
Click to expand...

The checkride for any certificate has to be in the appropriate class of aircraft, right?

There are a couple of differences in the required training for SP and PP. Everything that's the same counts toward the mandatory quals for both, no matter if the plane is or is not in the LSA standards, so your friend can get his SP if he flies all of his time in a 182, then takes the checkride in a T-Bird II. Likewise, he can get PP if he does everything in that T-Bird II (including the checkride). All that counts is that he gets signed off for the mandatory quals for the right class.

The only real advantage of SP is the driver's license medical. The cost difference between the 15 hours of dual for SP and the 20 hours of dual for PP really isn't that great, and most students need more than the minimum dual hours anyhow. Solo hours aren't really an issue, since the whole idea is to fly.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You don't have to be able to be PIC to log PIC. For example, a P.P. with an expired medical and/or expired flight review can LOG pic as sole manipulator if they are rated in catagory and class - see the EdFred chart. (Yes, someone else has to be along to ACT as PIC.)

The question is - does an actual sport pilot have the catagory and class ratings to allow logging as sole manipulator? I suspect not.
Click to expand...

The OP said that his friend is "getting" his SP. That means he's not a PP, not rated in ANY category or class, including the C421 and Decathlon that the OP lists as his planes.
 
So I am a sport pilot. The back of my certificate says under XII Limitations:

Sport Pilot Endorsements: Airplane Single Engine Land
Holder does not meet ICAO requirements

The second bit is because of the lack of medical I believe.

Carl
 
MachFly said:
So what does it say on the back of your sports pilot certificate? It can't just be blank...
Click to expand...
No "ratings" there, just endorsements issued IAW 61.321.

Will you need to get a logbook endorsement for every plane then (like a student pilot)?
Click to expand...
Not every single plane, but every category/class. See 61.321. When you get the second instructor to give you the 61.321(b) proficiency check, that instructor will sign your 8710-11 application form (that's a different form from the 8710-1 most of us know well) and send it to the FAA, who will send you back a new Sport Pilot certificate with the new cat/class endorsement added.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The question is - does an actual sport pilot have the catagory and class ratings to allow logging as sole manipulator? I suspect not.
Click to expand...
No, but Sport Pilots have "privileges" based on logbook endorsements in each category/class obtained per 61.321. They can log PIC time as sole manipulator any time they are sole manipulator of an aircraft in which they have "privileges," i.e., something that qualifies as an LSA and for they have the appropriate 61.321 category/class endorsement.
 
Okay thanks guys. I think I understand most of it now, at least enough to answer my question.
 
Ron Levy said:
No "ratings" there, just endorsements issued IAW 61.321.

Not every single plane, but every category/class. See 61.321. When you get the second instructor to give you the 61.321(b) proficiency check, that instructor will sign your 8710-11 application form (that's a different form from the 8710-1 most of us know well) and send it to the FAA, who will send you back a new Sport Pilot certificate with the new cat/class endorsement added.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
SportPilotCO said:
So I am a sport pilot. The back of my certificate says under XII Limitations:

Sport Pilot Endorsements: Airplane Single Engine Land
Holder does not meet ICAO requirements

The second bit is because of the lack of medical I believe.

Carl
Click to expand...


The ICAO is because you can't fly internationally. I have a recreational certificate (that requires a medical) and it says the same
 
VanDy said:
The ICAO is because you can't fly internationally.
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Kind of the other way around -- the "Does not meet ICAO" note is because your Sport or Recreational Pilot certificate does not meet ICAO standards for any class of pilot certificate. Because it doesn't, you are not permitted to fly outside the country issuing that certificate.
 
Witmo said:
You need to be at least a Private Pilot to act as safety pilot.
Click to expand...

No you need a Private Pilot to be pilot in command. The technical word for a sport pilot in such an aircraft is "passenger."

No safety pilot is needed here.
 
Ron Levy said:
Kind of the other way around -- the "Does not meet ICAO" note is because your Sport or Recreational Pilot certificate does not meet ICAO standards for any class of pilot certificate. Because it doesn't, you are not permitted to fly outside the country issuing that certificate.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is.....


That he can't fly internationally on a Sport pilot? Or that he can only fly domestically?
 
flyingron said:
No you need a Private Pilot to be pilot in command. The technical word for a sport pilot in such an aircraft is "passenger."

No safety pilot is needed here.
Click to expand...

Someone made a statement inferring that a Sport Pilot could act as a safety pilot for someone practicing instrument flight under the hood. I replied that you need to be at least a Private Pilot to be a safety pilot.
 
Actually as a sport pilot I can fly internationally but currently the only country that recognizes the certificate is the Bahamas. There is an annual fly out to the Bahamas from the Light Sport Expo in Sebring every year.

Here is a ref from AOPA that talks about limitations and specifically about international travel and the fact that the country visited needs to provide prior authorization.
http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Regula.../Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-Sport-Pilot


I am actually planning a trip up over Canada to Alaska this coming summer in my LSA. I am going to take a friend with me who is a CFII for her to fly the Canadian legs.

Carl
 
flyingron said:
No you need a Private Pilot to be pilot in command. The technical word for a sport pilot in such an aircraft is "passenger."
Click to expand...
Yes, you do need a PP to act as a safety pilot in any aircraft , including an LSA, regardless of who's acting as PIC. See 14 CFR 91.109(c):
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless--
  • (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
Click to expand...
Thus, if a Sport Pilot wants to get some hood work in an LSA, the safety pilot must hold a PP or better, even if the Sport Pilot is acting as PIC.
 
SportPilotCO said:
Actually as a sport pilot I can fly internationally but currently the only country that recognizes the certificate is the Bahamas.
Click to expand...
Correct. A pilot certificate which meets ICAO standards is automatically recognized in any ICAO state, which means you can fly your US registered aircraft around the world on the basis of your ICAO-compliant FAA pilot certificate. Since the FAA Sport Pilot certificate does not meet ICAO standards, the FAA is required by ICAO rules to say so on that certificate, and then it's up to each individual country to decide if they'll let you use it in their airspace. So far, only the Bahamas allows that for the non-ICAO-compliant FAA Sport Pilot certificate.
 
ICAO Chicago Convention, Annex 1


ICAO has developed international licensing Standards for the following aviation activities:

Flight crew licenses:

  • Licenses and Ratings for Pilots (Annex 1, Chapter 2):
    • Private pilot (aeroplane, helicopter[FONT=&quot], powered-lift and airship[/FONT]);
    • Commercial pilot (aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship);
    • Multi-crew pilot (aeroplane);
    • Airline transport pilot (aeroplane, helicopter and powered-lift);
    • Glider pilot; and
    • Free balloon pilot.
  • Licenses for Flight Crew Members other than Licences for Pilots (Annex 1, Chapter 3):
    • Flight engineer; and
    • Flight navigator.
International recognition of flight crew licenses

The Convention on International Civil Aviation, often called the Chicago Convention, provides for worldwide recognition of flight crew licenses issued by any member State of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) provided that:

  1. the license meets or exceeds the ICAO licensing Standards of Annex 1 – Personnel Licensing to the Convention on International Civil Aviation; and
  2. the license is used on an aircraft which is registered in the State which has issued or validated the license.
If the license is to be used on an aircraft which is not registered in the issuing State, the license holder must obtain a validation of the license from the State of Registry or alternatively obtain a new licence issued by the State of Registry.
 
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