Sports Pilot Appeal

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Does anyone have a success story or information on appealing the FAA to get your sports pilots license or operate under this if you had a class 3 denied?

I’m failing to understand:

1. Why someone found to be suitable/healthy enough to drive a car, RV, etc with a DL and otherwise operate under sports pilot can’t by FAA’s reasoning if denied a class 3, but with further consideration wording; I.e. you don’t want to go the SI route.

2. Why can a denied class 3 applicant fly a self launching glider with a passenger, even with a jet engine on it, and often at faster IAS than LSA speed limitations?

Just trying to see all potential options should SI not be obtainable. My HIMS AME is recommending SI, but you never know with the FAA.

Thanks!

 

[Lindberg]

What would you be appealing? There's no discretion or action by the FAA. The loss of sport pilot privileges is automatic.

 

[MountainDude]

Another AOPA failure, sadly. The law obviously does not make sense, but it's never been fixed.

 

[Anthem]

<Content deleted by User>

 

[Lindberg]

Another AOPA failure, sadly. The law obviously does not make sense, but it's never been fixed.

The law makes sense, even with respect to the OP. You say it's a failure because it's not the way you wish it were, but perhaps it actually works as intended.

 

[Lindberg]

I think they are differentiating between letting one fly without knowing, vs once you are confirmed and they know you are disqualified.

Right. It was never intended to be a loophole for pilots who know they're medically unqualified.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Right. It was never intended to be a loophole for pilots who know they're medically unqualified.

That’s the question though. Who determines that you’re medically unqualified for glider operations? If your GP/treating physician, etc. says you’re good, healthy, physically and mentally fit, stable, etc, why doesn’t that meet the same for operating under a DL for sports pilot?

 

[Kent Wien]

Ultralights are an option still. But sorry you’re going through this. Hopefully someday this will be fixed.

 

[Lindberg]

Who determines that you’re medically unqualified for glider operations?

You do. The vast majority of gliders are single-seat, light, and frangible. Most two-seaters are used for training. Yes, there are cruising motor gliders, but they're a tiny fraction of the fleet.

It took a single medical-related fatality accident to change the rules for commercial balloon flights. We haven't yet seen that with gliders.

Unless you're flying for a commercial op, it's really just all on the honor system anyway. Why not complain about that?

 

[geezer]

My Dad had a drivers license, and was taking flying lessons. He had a couple of heart related events, the doctor found nothing wrong, and he continued driving and taking lessons.

With his questionable heart issues, he would most likely have been denied a 3rd class medical.

The issue became moot, as he died while driving, and the passenger beside him brought the car safely to the curb.

Should the FAA have issued him any class of medical?

The real question may be whether the states should issue/renew drivers licenses when the person has a heart, drug, drinking, or other problem.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

You do. The vast majority of gliders are single-seat, light, and frangible. Most two-seaters are used for training. Yes, there are cruising motor gliders, but they're a tiny fraction of the fleet.

It took a single medical-related fatality accident to change the rules for commercial balloon flights. We haven't yet seen that with gliders.

Unless you're flying for a commercial op, it's really just all on the honor system anyway. Why not complain about that?

Definitely not complaining about the honor system. I'm really just asking this from an appeal perspective for seeking a sports pilots privilege if your HIMS AME, GP, etc say you're safe to fly/recommend SI but the FAA still denies you. I'm just trying to plan for worst case scenario.

I don't understand how every specialists that you're required to see for SI can recommend SI but the FAA can still deny you and you're not really left with an option of Basic Med or Sports Pilot...it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Lindberg]

Definitely not complaining about the honor system. I'm really just asking this from an appeal perspective for seeking a sports pilots privilege if your HIMS AME, GP, etc say you're safe to fly/recommend SI but the FAA still denies you. I'm just trying to plan for worst case scenario.

I don't understand how every specialists that you're required to see for SI can recommend SI but the FAA can still deny you and you're not really left with an option of Basic Med or Sports Pilot...it doesn't make sense to me.

Are we talking generally or about someone who applies for an SI with undisclosed AUD and limited sobriety? Because generally, one can appeal denial of a medical, if the denial doesn't comport with the law, but changing the law would require lobbying Congress.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Are we talking generally or about someone who applies for an SI with undisclosed AUD and limited sobriety? Because generally, one can appeal denial of a medical, if the denial doesn't comport with the law, but changing the law would require lobbying Congress.

Anyone that believes they are being unfairly denied and who’s AME has recommended SI.

Again, we’re talking about being able to operate under sports, not unrestricted.

 

[Palmpilot]

It's "sport pilot," not "sports pilot." [/nitpick]

 

[TCABM]

Anyone that believes they are being unfairly denied and who’s AME has recommended SI.

Again, we’re talking about being able to operate under sports, not unrestricted.

Outright denials are really, really low (low single digit percentage low)., but unfair doesn’t count. All SIs are an exception the law (CFR) and the criteria for acceptance is set by the FAA.

If the FAA gave you directions to jump and you hopped and skipped instead, there really isn’t much to appeal. If you followed their instructions specifically and were denied, then you need to get the blue ribbon copy of your record and see the whole story, not just your side.

That record may be informative when you re-apply. Nothing prevents you from doing that, but if you choose not to play by the FAAs rules, you will not pass go and collect a medical.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Outright denials are really, really low (low single digit percentage low)., but unfair doesn’t count. All SIs are an exception the law (CFR) and the criteria for acceptance is set by the FAA.

If the FAA gave you directions to jump and you hopped and skipped instead, there really isn’t much to appeal. If you followed their instructions specifically and were denied, then you need to get the blue ribbon copy of your record and see the whole story, not just your side.

That record may be informative when you re-apply. Nothing prevents you from doing that, but if you choose not to play by the FAAs rules, you will not pass go and collect a medical.

I've definitely done everything the FAA has requested. Complete file sent to FAA months ago, no letter requesting additional info, just hoping there's a fair shake and that the FAA does what the HIMS AME, psychiatrist/neuropsychiatrist, etc. recommend, which is SI.

The FAS told me my HIMS AME has recommended SI, I've read the reports of the specialists saying the same, so just praying the powers that be go along with everyone else.

 

[TCABM]

I've definitely done everything the FAA has requested. Complete file sent to FAA months ago, no letter requesting additional info, just hoping there's a fair shake and that the FAA does what the HIMS AME, psychiatrist/neuropsychiatrist, etc. recommend, which is SI.

The FAS told me my HIMS AME has recommended SI, I've read the reports of the specialists saying the same, so just praying the powers that be go along with everyone else.

Have you received a denial?

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Have you received a denial?

No. This is my second time around though, first was denial with further consideration last year. Just trying to plan for any and all scenarios.

 

[TCABM]

No. This is my second time around though, first was denial with further consideration last year. Just trying to plan for any and all scenarios.

I have nothing to add.

 

[Michael T. Runyan]

I think you will have to appeal the denial of the 3rd Class medical to the NTSB or FAS, whichever is applicable due to your basis for denial. Statutorily, if you've been denied, you cannot seek Sport Pilot privileges. So to me, it would be the appeal of the denial of the 3rd Class medical. Am I missing something here?

Here is a link that explains the appeals at some level: https://www.faa.gov/faq/how-does-appeal-process-work

 

[Baked Potato]

It's "sport pilot," not "sports pilot." [/nitpick]

Sports pilot:

 

[Palmpilot]

...Statutorily, if you've been denied, you cannot seek Sport Pilot privileges. So to me, it would be the appeal of the denial of the 3rd Class medical....

I believe that's administrative law (i.e., regulations), not statute law.

 

[Albany Tom]

My Dad had a drivers license, and was taking flying lessons. He had a couple of heart related events, the doctor found nothing wrong, and he continued driving and taking lessons.

With his questionable heart issues, he would most likely have been denied a 3rd class medical.

The issue became moot, as he died while driving, and the passenger beside him brought the car safely to the curb.

Should the FAA have issued him any class of medical?

The real question may be whether the states should issue/renew drivers licenses when the person has a heart, drug, drinking, or other problem.

Sorry you lost your dad, but glad that no one else was hurt from that occurrence.

A friend of mine had an accident where I believe he just fell asleep. Absolutely wasn't drinking, he doesn't drink. He told the trooper that he didn't remember the single car accident, and may have "blacked out". They pulled his license just on that statement, and he had to go through quite a bit of testing, including an MRI, before they'd let him drive again. So some states are careful about it, at least sometimes and for some conditions.

 

[Tools]

The problem here is that we’re at the end of a VERY LONG CROOKED road.

We all get “it’s their rules..” but it really ain’t. As citizens we are ENTITLED to fly (in the case of medicals, 14cfr67.3). We simply have to meet their guidelines which are transparent and follow the rule making process.

That is where things go wrong. The FAA will simply NOT follow their own rules. And they seem to not have any consequence for doing so. Worse, then they use the SI process and claim immunity. So if SIs are for an exception to CFRs, what about the SIs that are generated BECAUSE they won’t follow CFRs?

I believe the “process” is first a thing called a “reconsideration” which goes FAS, then NTSB “appeal”, then a REAL ALJ hearing complete with actual due process. You’re talking five years and a hundred grand.

It can be done pro se, and really there’s no reason not to if this isn’t your profession. What we need is for TONS of people to start doing that. With ChatGPT and templates that are being generated RIGHT NOW (several interesting NTSB hearings in process and recently finished) we need to book their docket out 15 years and then start hitting congress critters. It’ll cripple them and not cost “us” anything. Change will happen.

All that is being asked is for them to start DOING THEIR JOB. If some stupid eye doctor non pilot AME doesn’t wanna certify someone to fly, then trust the report of a ACTUAL PROFESSIONAL in whatever field, and move on. That’s his job, to ADMINISTRATE this process, not actually be medical about it.

Grass roots efforts are springing up all over the place. EVERYTHING in life is on a pendulum, and pendulums move slowest at the extreme, THAT is where we are. Change is slow but inevitable, and there’s only one way to go.

 

[Michael T. Runyan]

I believe that's administrative law (i.e., regulations), not statute law.

Thanks for pointing that out, I should have been more precise in my post.

 

[ateamer]

Any adverse action by the government against an individual should be triable in a conventional court with a real judge. We need to get rid of administrative law judges. They’re effectively an employee of whatever agency brings cases before them, and they have motivation to favor the agency.

 

[Baked Potato]

Any adverse action by the government against an individual should be triable in a conventional court with a real judge. We need to get rid of administrative law judges. They’re effectively an employee of whatever agency brings cases before them, and they have motivation to favor the agency.

It would be nice if the federal courts didn't have an 18 month wait list for the docket as it is now. Imagine what happens if we get rid of 2000 administrative judges and those cases all have to get to federal court instead.

 

[ateamer]

It would be nice if the federal courts didn't have an 18 month wait list for the docket as it is now. Imagine what happens if we get rid of 2000 administrative judges and those cases all have to get to federal court instead.

Efficency is a poor reason to shortcut due process.

 

[Baked Potato]

Efficency is a poor reason to shortcut due process.

Sure, but that's easy to say unless you've got a dispute and you're waiting two years to get a hearing.

Especially if it's something having to do with your personal finances, like veteran's affairs or social security.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Sure, but that's easy to say unless you've got a dispute and you're waiting two years to get a hearing.

Especially if it's something having to do with your personal finances, like veteran's affairs or social security.

Maybe if we had less regulation/red tape or more decentralized approach to things we would be more efficient.

 

[Lindberg]

Efficency is a poor reason to shortcut due process.

Last year, the Supreme Court limited the scope of penalties that ALJs can impose in some cases. So you might get your wish at some point. And you know what they say about getting your wishes.

Also, the ALJs in question don't work for the FAA, they work for the NTSB.

 

[DJTorrente]

Does anyone have a success story or information on appealing the FAA to get your sports pilots license or operate under this if you had a class 3 denied?

I’m failing to understand:

1. Why someone found to be suitable/healthy enough to drive a car, RV, etc with a DL and otherwise operate under sports pilot can’t by FAA’s reasoning if denied a class 3, but with further consideration wording; I.e. you don’t want to go the SI route.

2. Why can a denied class 3 applicant fly a self launching glider with a passenger, even with a jet engine on it, and often at faster IAS than LSA speed limitations?

Just trying to see all potential options should SI not be obtainable. My HIMS AME is recommending SI, but you never know with the FAA.

Thanks!

Re: 1) There are roughly 200,000,000 licensed drivers in this country of 330,000,000 people. If the government tried to F--- with the right to drive of any portion of them, such that the rest sensed a threat to their own liberty, there would be palpable revolution.

By comparison, there are -- at most -- 700k pilots in the US of any/all rank or rating. About 275k of them are commercial and/or ATP -- they need the credential to ply their trade and are going to endure any haze the FAA throws at them to the extent they can. Ditto that portion of the student/private pilots who are working their way up the ratings to get to that level.

Pilots are a much easier crowd to bully around -- most people won't even know one personally.

The number of glider pilots is an order of magnitude smaller than any other category. The number of Sport Pilots another order smaller; recreational another order smaller. Self-launching gliders? Rarer than a unicorn. Probably fewer than 100 flying in this country. For its own self-interest, I suspect the FAA is content to ignore edge cases, regardless of the logic involved. Now, if someone were to find a way to bring a practical "motor glider" to market that competed with the use case of LSAs, such that even tens of thousands of people started buying and flying them, I'm confident it would attract the FAA's attention.

Because They're Not Happy... Until You're Not Happy.

As for "options"... sadly, once you start dancing with the bear...

 

[Albany Tom]

I first read the title as "sports pilot apparel", and thought to myself, "Well, when I was a sport pilot, I pretty much just wore regular clothes like everyone else. No flight suit for me!"

Then I re-read the title correctly as "sports pilot appeal", and thought to myself, "I always thought it was cool to be a sport pilot, but I'm pretty sure it didn't make me more attractive to anyone".

Now I'm thinking that if there was a "sports pilot" option, maybe that would be for a private pilot who had the added privilege of being able to fly over stadiums and through all other TFRs. Now THAT rating would have some appeal. But probably not something that would work for the OP.