Spent shell casing with new pistol

Sac Arrow

Sac Arrow

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Snorting his way across the USA
I'll skip over the part about searching through the channels of television monitor #4 at the gym this morning (my primary two channels were running junk shows) and I ended up watching a combination of the news and Dateline.

Dateline.

It was a documentary of an investigation and trial where it was claimed an innocent man was framed elaborately for the murder of a friend and neighbor. The damning evidence causing him to be convicted was a fired shell from the case of a missing Springfield Armory 9mm pistol, found identical to the spent casings at the crime scene. Defense maintained the pistol was lost by his wife, substantiated by a video a year prior of a target shooting event at a remote lake with friends, and maintained there was no casing and suggested the shell was planted by the detectives.

There were a lot of inconsistencies in the evidence (that Dateline presented) but my bull**** meter pegged sky high when the subject of the fired spent casing included in the case of the pistol was brought up. I have not purchased a new pistol in a long time. I Googled, and apparently it is a thing in some places.

What's up with that?
 
My memory is hazy but I *think* it may be a requirement in Massachusetts or something. My Sigs have always come with a fired empty cartridge in the gun case.
 
All the pistols I’ve bought in the last 10 yrs or so have come with a fired shell. (Except .22) I thought it was to demonstrate a function test. I’ll go throw them all away now.
 
That seems like some interesting forensics.

Sure, the pin would likely hit the primer in a highly predictable manner when chambered in the same gun, but other than the offset distance what do they get?

*asking for a friend?*
 
Ravioli said:
That seems like some interesting forensics.

Sure, the pin would likely hit the primer in a highly predictable manner when chambered in the same gun, but other than the offset distance what do they get?

*asking for a friend?*
Click to expand...

The spent cartridge also forms to the shape of the chamber in the gun it was used in, when fired. I could see there potentially being some distinguishable characteristics there, and possibly distinguishable damage done during the ejection process, in the case of a semi auto pistol or rifle.
 
Thanks @mondtster. I would have thought the projectile would be more telling, for rifling marks and the like.

It is a very interesting science. And for some reason I thought the people picking up their spent brass were all re-loaders.
 
I have only bought one new pistol in my life. It was explained to me that the spent shell was to be turned in when the gun is registered in certain states that require registration of everything that can be used for a weapon.

I inherited 2 pistols that were registered by the previous owner. Both of these pistols were made in the '20s. I was asked if I wanted the registration papers but I declined.
 
The tool marks in the chamber and on the firing pin and ejector can be traced. Unless, like me, you polish stuff. Like chambers, firing pins, and ejectors. I'll never live in a state that requires registration of certain constitutionally allowed items.
 
Here (Georgia) there are no such rules.
 
Texas as well no such thing...
 
Kenny Phillips said:
The tool marks in the chamber and on the firing pin and ejector can be traced. Unless, like me, you polish stuff. Like chambers, firing pins, and ejectors. I'll never live in a state that requires registration of certain constitutionally allowed items.
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ya but.....I got's nothing to hide or lose. I don't agree with it....but, that's what libtards did.:confused:
 
Just goes to show you should use a revolver instead of an automatic if you're going to shoot somebody...
 
As a detective, I laugh at the idea of planted evidence...for what purpose? To frame someone because...???
The public seems to think there is this "pressure" to solve cases. Pressure from bosses, the public, politicians...nope, there's no pressure, other than the personal investment I put into some cases.
I mean, I'm proud to say I lead my department in cases assigned, cases solved, cases closed, and confessions per case. And even though I lead my department (and my department stats are higher than average for my county solve-rates), I'm only solving something like 30%+ of my cases assigned to me...the department average is like 27%, and the county average is like 25%...how much pressure could there be, when we're only solving less than a third of the crimes out there? (I'm guessing at these numbers, btw, as I haven't seen the stats in awhile...I just remember that I was few percent above my dept, which is a few percent above my county)
I once exonerated a guy who was accused of an assault. The guy was a several-time parolee, and a person nearly any officer would have categorized as a "dirt bag". He was accused of violently assaulting an old woman, by the old woman herself. Come to find out, she needed the parolee out of the picture over this bizarre love triangle. I look at my exoneration of that guy (and prosecution of his accuser) as one of the highlights of my career. When I've mentioned it to other detectives, they nearly UNIVERSALLY say that the idea of convicting the wrong person haunts them (as it does me).
So, unless you can show some kind of reason for personal bias, like the detective had a reason to frame a particular person for this or that, my personal bull **** meter goes off when I hear "planted evidence"...
 
tawood said:
As a detective, I laugh at the idea of planted evidence...for what purpose? To frame someone because...???
The public seems to think there is this "pressure" to solve cases. Pressure from bosses, the public, politicians...nope, there's no pressure, other than the personal investment I put into some cases.
I mean, I'm proud to say I lead my department in cases assigned, cases solved, cases closed, and confessions per case. And even though I lead my department (and my department stats are higher than average for my county solve-rates), I'm only solving something like 30%+ of my cases assigned to me...the department average is like 27%, and the county average is like 25%...how much pressure could there be, when we're only solving less than a third of the crimes out there? (I'm guessing at these numbers, btw, as I haven't seen the stats in awhile...I just remember that I was few percent above my dept, which is a few percent above my county)
I once exonerated a guy who was accused of an assault. The guy was a several-time parolee, and a person nearly any officer would have categorized as a "dirt bag". He was accused of violently assaulting an old woman, by the old woman herself. Come to find out, she needed the parolee out of the picture over this bizarre love triangle. I look at my exoneration of that guy (and prosecution of his accuser) as one of the highlights of my career. When I've mentioned it to other detectives, they nearly UNIVERSALLY say that the idea of convicting the wrong person haunts them (as it does me).
So, unless you can show some kind of reason for personal bias, like the detective had a reason to frame a particular person for this or that, my personal bull **** meter goes off when I hear "planted evidence"...
Click to expand...

I'm only reporting what some of the Dateline interviewees suggested, not stating that as gospel. I think I would have to agree with you. Look, an hour of convoluted presentation with an agenda does not equal months worth of examining the facts. I do however find it reassuring that there is no undue pressure to solve cases, at least in your department.
 
kyleb said:
Here (Georgia) there are no such rules.
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Not yet.... Stacy Abrams not only wants to do a waiting period, she also wants to take your AR15 away.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
my state takes that shell....it goes with registration. :confused:
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Forget that.

Reason #1776 why I build most of my firearms, aside from it being fun and also more dialed in to me, I avoid some of that creepy stuff.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm only reporting what some of the Dateline interviewees suggested, not stating that as gospel. I think I would have to agree with you. Look, an hour of convoluted presentation with an agenda does not equal months worth of examining the facts. I do however find it reassuring that there is no undue pressure to solve cases, at least in your department.
Click to expand...
I've worked for three departments, and they were the same as far as that goes...Now, I could imagine a smaller department, maybe in an area with very little violent crime, having pressure to solve a rare violent case...but then again, they would probably also have more time on their hands to work the case too, making solving it a little more likely...and that's one of the biggest problems with my department/job: if I had fewer cases/more time, I'd definitely solve more cases. But then some cases are just unsolvable due to lack of evidence, no matter how much time one spends.
 
I guess I watch too much Forensic Files.....cause there's always evidence. It just doesn't get collected and analyzed. ;)
 
tawood said:
No thanks...as typical when discussing police, one can google an exception, but it only proves the exception.
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Well, you asked. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore the answer. There was another case involving two Des Moines cops this year, one with an LAPD officer planting coke on a suspect last year, and Wikipedia lists another half dozen older cases. I’m sure YOU would never do it, and MOST cops wouldn’t and would immediately point out if they saw someone else do it. That said... given that examples are not at all difficult to find, I don’t know that I’d say it doesn’t happen and it’s nothing to worry about.
 
When I purchased, Glock provided a couple of spent casings with their pistol to demonstrate that it has been test fired. Same with Springfield Armory and the Sig Sauer I had once. I don't believe Colt included spent brass when I purchased their O-frames though.
 
No state requires it any more.... it never solved any crimes...

Maryland used to, but they shut it down after millions spent and a crappy inventory system. They were storing a bunch of brass for no benefit.

It was a good way to know the date it was test fired at the factory, although they can sit on wholesaler/dealer shelves for years.
 
Both my Beretta .380 and Ruger SR22 came with a fired shell. IIRC, both described as a test round and definitely not asked to deliver it to any agency.

Cheers
 
Some of mine included a spent casing, others didn't.
 
DaleB said:
Well, you asked. No skin off my nose if you want to ignore the answer. There was another case involving two Des Moines cops this year, one with an LAPD officer planting coke on a suspect last year, and Wikipedia lists another half dozen older cases. I’m sure YOU would never do it, and MOST cops wouldn’t and would immediately point out if they saw someone else do it. That said... given that examples are not at all difficult to find, I don’t know that I’d say it doesn’t happen and it’s nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...
Do you worry about drunk pilots crashing into your house? I can google drunk pilots, and get numerous examples of drunk pilots crashing, some of them into houses...so, using your logic: I don't know that I'd say it doesn't happen and it's nothing to worry about.
 
People always complement my shooting based on my spent casings.....;)
 
And I never said that evidence isn't planted...I just said that it is very very rare, and it requires proof or a motive if you make the claim.
 
tawood said:
As a detective, I laugh at the idea of planted evidence...for what purpose? To frame someone because...???
The public seems to think there is this "pressure" to solve cases. Pressure from bosses, the public, politicians...nope, there's no pressure, other than the personal investment I put into some cases.
I mean, I'm proud to say I lead my department in cases assigned, cases solved, cases closed, and confessions per case. And even though I lead my department (and my department stats are higher than average for my county solve-rates), I'm only solving something like 30%+ of my cases assigned to me...the department average is like 27%, and the county average is like 25%...how much pressure could there be, when we're only solving less than a third of the crimes out there? (I'm guessing at these numbers, btw, as I haven't seen the stats in awhile...I just remember that I was few percent above my dept, which is a few percent above my county)
I once exonerated a guy who was accused of an assault. The guy was a several-time parolee, and a person nearly any officer would have categorized as a "dirt bag". He was accused of violently assaulting an old woman, by the old woman herself. Come to find out, she needed the parolee out of the picture over this bizarre love triangle. I look at my exoneration of that guy (and prosecution of his accuser) as one of the highlights of my career. When I've mentioned it to other detectives, they nearly UNIVERSALLY say that the idea of convicting the wrong person haunts them (as it does me).
So, unless you can show some kind of reason for personal bias, like the detective had a reason to frame a particular person for this or that, my personal bull **** meter goes off when I hear "planted evidence"...
Click to expand...
Tim, I know you are a good guy, but not every LEO is as pure as the driven snow. Familiar with the Marty Tankleff case? All kinds of rotten cop prints over that one.
 
The thing not considered when retaining a spent shell as part of registration is the wear of the gun. Take a spent casing or bullet, shoot round another from the same gun, and you can likely match the two. Now run hundreds or thousands of rounds through the gun, disassemble, clean, and reassemble it several dozen times, collect a spent round, and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to match it to the round fired when the gun was new.

Having the casing from the sale might be useful if someone buys a new semiauto and immediately commits a crime with it, but I suspect that’s pretty uncommon. Mostly it’s a feel-good thing, largely useless.
 
Doc Bruce once shared a story on the Red Board about a customs agent planting a bag of something in his plane after coming back into the US from somewhere.
 
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X3 Skier said:
Both my Beretta .380 and Ruger SR22 came with a fired shell. IIRC, both described as a test round and definitely not asked to deliver it to any agency.

Cheers
Click to expand...

The manufacture wouldn’t ask, the state would. The manufactures were just including them because they had no idea what state they’d be sold in..
 
Half Fast said:
The thing not considered when retaining a spent shell as part of registration is the wear of the gun. Take a spent casing or bullet, shoot round another from the same gun, and you can likely match the two. Now run hundreds or thousands of rounds through the gun, disassemble, clean, and reassemble it several dozen times, collect a spent round, and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to match it to the round fired when the gun was new.

Having the casing from the sale might be useful if someone buys a new semiauto and immediately commits a crime with it, but I suspect that’s pretty uncommon. Mostly it’s a feel-good thing, largely useless.
Click to expand...

How many firearms out on the street do you suppose have been fired thousands of times, disassembled and reassembled after being used in the commission of a crime?
 
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