Special VFR

Heftiger

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Heftiger
I'm looking at planning a trip this weekend and haze is causing a problem. I'm a PP, not IFR rated. Visibility in the afternoon hovers around 2-3 SM. If I fly in to airport 1, and discover weather at airport 2 has deteriorated to 2 SM, can I request special VFR on the ground at airport 1 in to airport 2?


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I'm looking at planning a trip this weekend and haze is causing a problem. I'm a PP, not IFR rated. Visibility in the afternoon hovers around 2-3 SM. If I fly in to airport 1, and discover weather at airport 2 has deteriorated to 2 SM, can I request special VFR on the ground at airport 1 in to airport 2?


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Depends on how close the two are. Most likely a request at airport 1 won't have anything to do with airport 2. They'll send the request, if FF they could even put it in the remarks. Your clearance however at airport 2 is based in the IFR traffic load at your arrival time. Won't really know what type of delay, if any, will occur until you actually arrive at airport 2.
 
SVFR applies to Class B/C/D/E surface areas up to 10,000 feet unless otherwise prohibited (often for really big airports). It does not apply in Class B/C shelves, or in enroute Class E.

So, if you travel between two Class D airports and stay in Class G in between, SVFR might work. If you need to go through Class E (as we almost always do), 2 SM vis is a problem unless you can get above it below 10,000 feet. BUT, it comes from the tower having control over that airspace, not from another airport. While you have an SVFR clearance, the airspace is essentially closed.

If you have never flown in such low visibilities, do it with an instructor. Even 4-5 SM vis is a shock if you haven't done it before. 2 SM means you can't see the pattern at all from the 45, or the base leg from downwind entry.
 
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You can certainly request it, but getting it and then complying with all the applicable regulations could be really tricky. Since SVFR only applies "within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport", that only works if one airport's "controlled airspace designated to the surface" abuts the other airport's "controlled airspace designated to the surface", as it does in Louisville KY between Standiford and Bowman, or in the Los Angeles area between Burbank, Whiteman, and Van Nuys. Otherwise, you've got no guarantee of acceptance by the second airport, and you're also probably stuck below the 700 AGL shelf, which usually makes complying with 91.119 really hard when you have two airports close enough together for them to coordinate entry to the second before departing the first (rarely not congested in such places).
 
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Well, you could scud run in Class G between the airports with as little as 1 SM vis, but I really wouldn't recommend that. Class E gets as low as 700 feet AGL around airports with instrument approaches. In most places, it's at 1200 AGL.
 
Well, you could scud run in Class G between the airports with as little as 1 SM vis, but I really wouldn't recommend that. Class E gets as low as 700 feet AGL around airports with instrument approaches. In most places, it's at 1200 AGL.
Like I said -- really hard to comply with 91.119 when you have to stay that low.
 
I've never needed to use SVFR, but it has come up in the context of surface mist and patchy fog locally. It's really easy to get above that. I don't like to launch in conditions like that because there is no guarantee the vis won't get a little worse and turn into IFR while I'm enroute. But the transition between airports is trivial under that circumstance.

Generally, when we have mist, it tops out no higher than 2000 feet, and can be a whole helluva lot lower.

But I have launched in 4SM vis with no clouds. That's the current personal minimum in day (M)VFR, provided it's clear above 2000 (it usually is). If it worsens, I can ask for SVFR. Hasn't happened yet.
 
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Thanks for all the responses. Both airports are class E, covered by same controlling agency. Coming in to airport 1 I should know where the haze begins, but the airports are only 45 or so nm apart.


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Well, they still won't give you SVFR at both airports at the same time. That would be asking to close the destination airspace for 30+ minutes.
 
Thanks for all the responses. Both airports are class E, covered by same controlling agency. Coming in to airport 1 I should know where the haze begins, but the airports are only 45 or so nm apart.


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Both are surface Class E; dashed magenta?
 
Well, they still won't give you SVFR at both airports at the same time. That would be asking to close the destination airspace for 30+ minutes.


Ahhh. I think I understand the concern now. So worst case scenario both destinations are 2 mi vis.

1. Request special VFR in to destination 1. If approved, land. We'll spend some time there.

2. Request special VFR departure from destination 1. Climb out of haze to VFR and cancel SVFR.

3. Fly to destination 2. Request SVFR before descending back in to haze. Land at destination 2.

Is that a viable option?


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No, not surface. And the destination also has a Class D option if that changes anything.


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Since SVFR only applies "within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport"

Makes me wish the FAA hadn't done away with the term "control zone."

One more point is that SVFR traffic has many of the same implications to ATC as IFR. IF you're in "surface areas of controlled airspace designated for an airport" your special VFR operation may preclude any IFR ops in the same airspace.
 
No, not surface. And the destination also has a Class D option if that changes anything.


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OK, I take it airport 1 is a faded magenta or class E transition area then. In that case, ATC won't and can't clear you SVFR into that airport. If it's 2 miles vis you'll have to stay beneath Class E going in there. Hopefully 700 AGL works with minimum FAR altitudes in that area.

If airport 2 is class D and in effect at time of arrival, you'll need to get a SVFR clearance from approach prior to entering. If it's a busy Class D, you may have to hold for a bit. Although non-radar sep and visual sep are used for separating you from others, IFR aircraft have priority.
 
Thanks for all the responses. Both airports are class E, covered by same controlling agency.
Unlikely, then, that there is "controlled airspace designated to the surface" for either airport, no less both, in which case SVFR isn't an option at all. Are they both surrounded by dashed magenta lines (like a Class D except magenta instead of blue)? Perhaps you can share the location so we can look at the chart.
 
No, not surface. And the destination also has a Class D option if that changes anything.
If it's Class D, it should be to the surface. But if the other one lacks controlled airspace to the surface, then an SVFR transition isn't possible. How about telling us where you're going so we can look on the chart? But no matter what, the idea of rooting around VFR (Special or not) at low altitude in 2 miles visibility makes my skin crawl. For me, that's time to switch on the TFR's (that's "terrain following radar", not "temporary flight restriction"), use the nav radar to see where I'm going, and hope nobody else is out there doing the same thing.
 
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I'm not quite sure you can do both from one since SVFR is issued by each tower. You'll have to ask at the destination when you get there.
 
I see. I missed the controlled airspace requirement for SVFR.

I have flown in low visibility before, and I'm very familiar with these areas. Maybe my contingency plan for low vis will just be to fly in to the class D and drive.

Destination 1 is KPTV
2 is L45, or KBFL for the Class D.

Thanks again for all the input. I really wish there was more info for SVFR in training.


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I see. I missed the controlled airspace requirement for SVFR.

I have flown in low visibility before, and I'm very familiar with these areas. Maybe my contingency plan for low vis will just be to fly in to the class D and drive.

Destination 1 is KPTV
2 is L45, or KBFL for the Class D.

Thanks again for all the input. I really wish there was more info for SVFR in training.


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If you are talking about a Class G field, the minimums are the same as SVFR, so no difference.
 
Yep, both class G. Just stay below Class E and you're good. I agree with Ron, I wouldn't want to be flying that low with 2 miles visibility. At least not in an airplane. If you're thoroughly familar (antennas) with the area it shouldn't be too bad.
 
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Destination 1 is KPTV
2 is L45, or KBFL for the Class D.
Then it's not going to be possible to do without violating some regulation. Since L45 lacks controlled airspace to the surface, you can't get SVFR in there. As a result, while you could get a SVFR departure from KBFL, you'd have to exit the D-space below 700 AGL so you'd be below the E-space upon exit or else you'd violate 91.155 by being VFR in E-space with less than 3sm visibility. However, that is clearly a congested area, so while you would be 91.155-legal by being 1 mile/clear-of-clouds in that G-space below the E-space after exiting the D-space, you'd be violating 91.119(b) by being less than "1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft." Consider it a "being between a rock and a hard place" when you're caught between two regulations like that -- just not possible to avoid breaking one reg or the other. If you were instrument-rated, you'd have other options, but not as a VFR-only pilot.
 
Yep, both class G. Just stay below Class E and you're good.
Not over a congested area below 700 AGL. 91.119 still applies to SVFR operations, and I don't think the FAA would have much trouble convincing an ALJ or the NTSB that Bakersfield CA is a "congested area".
 
If you are talking about a Class G field, the minimums are the same as SVFR, so no difference.

BUT, getting through the overlying Class E is a huge problem.

You could easily get above the crap from a Class D using SVFR, as it's generally not very thick around there. But I would never scud run through there. Just too many big transmission lines and TV towers, even if the terrain is benign.

Visalia is a real Class E airport.
 
Not over a congested area below 700 AGL. 91.119 still applies to SVFR operations, and I don't think the FAA would have much trouble convincing an ALJ or the NTSB that Bakersfield CA is a "congested area".

Which is why I mentioned that in post 14.
 
Then it's not going to be possible to do without violating some regulation. Since L45 lacks controlled airspace to the surface, you can't get SVFR in there. As a result, while you could get a SVFR departure from KBFL, you'd have to exit the D-space below 700 AGL so you'd be below the E-space upon exit or else you'd violate 91.155 by being VFR in E-space with less than 3sm visibility. However, that is clearly a congested area, so while you would be 91.155-legal by being 1 mile/clear-of-clouds in that G-space below the E-space after exiting the D-space, you'd be violating 91.119(b) by being less than "1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft." Consider it a "being between a rock and a hard place" when you're caught between two regulations like that -- just not possible to avoid breaking one reg or the other. If you were instrument-rated, you'd have other options, but not as a VFR-only pilot.

Circling to climb within Class D is an option, probably the only one.

The crap conditions in the southern Valley are often only a few thousand feet thick and are quite easy to overfly. Now, the destination may be a problem.

A legal complete nonstarter would be to fly into the foothills until the terrain pokes out of the crap and then follow it in at 1200 AGL descending to 700 AGL prior to the destination. All while dodging the occasional transmission line.
 
I don't know. Looks like on satellite there might be a little sliver of "other than congested" on the southeast corner of L45.:D
 
Circling to climb within Class D is an option, probably the only one.
Then how do you get back down below 700 AGL once you're out of the D-space unless the vis is above 3 miles all the way down to 700 AGL?

The crap conditions in the southern Valley are often only a few thousand feet thick and are quite easy to overfly. Now, the destination may be a problem.
Exactly -- once you're up there, you can get out of the D-space into E-space (assuming the tops are below the top of the D-space) but then you can't get down through "a few thousand feet thick" layer of sub-3-mile visibilities in E-space down to 700 AGL.
 
Then it's not going to be possible to do without violating some regulation. Since L45 lacks controlled airspace to the surface, you can't get SVFR in there. As a result, while you could get a SVFR departure from KBFL, you'd have to exit the D-space below 700 AGL so you'd be below the E-space upon exit or else you'd violate 91.155 by being VFR in E-space with less than 3sm visibility. However, that is clearly a congested area, so while you would be 91.155-legal by being 1 mile/clear-of-clouds in that G-space below the E-space after exiting the D-space, you'd be violating 91.119(b) by being less than "1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft." Consider it a "being between a rock and a hard place" when you're caught between two regulations like that -- just not possible to avoid breaking one reg or the other. If you were instrument-rated, you'd have other options, but not as a VFR-only pilot.


Great explanation. Thanks Ron.


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I should mention that my point of origin and ultimate destination is out of all of this crap. The issue is just getting in and then back out.


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I should mention that my point of origin and ultimate destination is out of all of this crap. The issue is just getting in and then back out.


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Then, use Meadows and Visalia.

And enjoy the 3000 foot displaced threshold at BFL.

If it's just for a fuel stop, use Tehachapi, Mojave, Fox (Lancaster) or some place in LA. The visibility will be from superb to amazing in the desert, and from adequate to excellent in LA.

Note that the visibility along the western edge of the valley is often not quite as crappy. But it's a whole lot harder to get good observations out there, as it's pretty deserted.

Please tell me this isn't a student cross-country. 2 miles vis is a BAD IDEA for a student.
 
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I don't know. Looks like on satellite there might be a little sliver of "other than congested" on the southeast corner of L45.:D

I don't think there is any place along CA-99 south of Sacramento that can qualify as "other than congested." Away from the highway, sure, there are lots of places. But they have transmission lines.
 
Then, use Meadows and Visalia.



And enjoy the 3000 foot displaced threshold at BFL.



If it's just for a fuel stop, use Tehachapi, Mojave, Fox (Lancaster) or some place in LA. The visibility will be from superb to amazing in the desert, and from adequate to excellent in LA.



Note that the visibility along the western edge of the valley is often not quite as crappy. But it's a whole lot harder to get good observations out there, as it's pretty deserted.



Please tell me this isn't a student cross-country. 2 miles vis is a BAD IDEA for a student.



BFL is a stop to visit family. So Tehachapi is too far. This isn't a student cross country.

Of course we might just scrub the whole flight. I would just like to know my options if I launch and the conditions change before we arrive in the valley.


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To give a contrary opinion: Drive. Even if it's legal, is it wise?

I'm a relative newbie, but pushing 400 hours. I wouldn't go.
 
A perfect reason to save your money and start your work on an instrument rating.
 
I think that there is a subtle trap in SVFR that is not apparent from simply reading the regs. The SVFR clearance just gets you to the boundary of the surface area...on the other side of the boundary you had better have good VFR or stay in Class G (very difficult, as Ron has pointed out. So the problem is not getting out via SVFR, it is being sure that good weather is on the other side of the boundary.

Bob Gardner
 
Please tell me this isn't a student cross-country. 2 miles vis is a BAD IDEA for a student.
Illegal, too.
Sec. 61.89

General limitations.

(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
...
(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;
 
Please tell me this isn't a student cross-country. 2 miles vis is a BAD IDEA for a student.
And this is where good ADM comes in. Instead of teaching the student he can legally fly in this weather once he gets his license, the question is should he still go anyone even if it is legal.
 
Here's what I teach my students: use a special to get in and not to get out. I've been in situations where SVFR at the time was better than waiting and having the weather get worse. Don't make SVFR be part of your primary plan. Use it as a contingency.
 
as a practical matter, I'll take 500ft ceiling 10 miles vis most any day but not 2SM vis no ceiling. SVFR you have to be able to see the ground and see where you're going.

Here's the view putting the airplane away today. Trees sticking into the cloud are 600AGL above the windsock below them. A good tassie VFR day. Visibility underneath is unlimited.
 

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Here's what I teach my students: use a special to get in and not to get out. I've been in situations where SVFR at the time was better than waiting and having the weather get worse. Don't make SVFR be part of your primary plan. Use it as a contingency.

Concise and excellent. You have said in one sentence what I have been trying to say in paragraphs.

Bob Gardner
 
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