Spatial disorientation in IMC

Albany Tom said:
The being a jerk part is that I'm going to suggest not flying into IMC without a second pilot or a working autopilot. I say that because to do otherwise requires, to me, almost perfect attention all the time, and I don't think that's realistic.
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I think a lot depends on how proficient the pilot is at keeping the scan going.
 
frfly172 said:
I don’t fly single pilot IFR without an auto pilot. Also your intent may be to fly to your minimums,but the weather can change rather quickly.
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Agreed. The most I would do IMC without an AP is climb straight through a low overcast layer to VFR on Top. Flying, talking, and navigating single pilot in hard IMC without a reliable and capable AP, especially with an aircraft that does not easily stay in trim, is asking for trouble.
 
WOW, I have flown most of my actual (and simulated) IFR in airplanes without an autopilot.

So, what happens when you are IFR and the autopilot fails? Do you just throw up your hands and scream, "We're going to die.: ????
 
That's really a separate question. Probably everyone here has flown along just fine with equipment breaking that they wouldn't have taken off with broken. Would you take off at night without an electrical system, other than escaping from zombies? Probably not. But give up if you lose it? I'd hope not.

Everyone has different risk tolerances. With some things, it's a bit the George Carlin driving thing - everyone slower is dumb, everyone faster is nuts. I wouldn't suggest anyone fly single pilot IFR without an autopilot or second pilot, just based on my perspective and read of the stats. That doesn't mean I think anyone that does that is nuts...but I do think that anyone that isn't sure about their skill set there should give it more than a second thought. And I do tend to be a bit of a baby in some areas of flying risk. I'm ok with that.
 
Pinecone said:
WOW, I have flown most of my actual (and simulated) IFR in airplanes without an autopilot.

So, what happens when you are IFR and the autopilot fails? Do you just throw up your hands and scream, "We're going to die.: ????
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“Proficiency” means different things to different people.
 
mandm said:
My mistake was not asking to be vectored, I guess I just didn’t know how to say it or was embarrassed to say hey I’m behind the airplane I need vectors for awhile and to descend into VMC.
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I think it's tough do announce you are having trouble. Especially if you have passengers. One time it was so bad I nearly declared an emergency. ATC was extremely kind and helpful. After that I just ask them for anything I need.

So don't be scared to ask for deviations, altitude changes, or "help, get me out of here". Do what you have to. Just get back home safe, okay?
 
Pinecone said:
WOW, I have flown most of my actual (and simulated) IFR in airplanes without an autopilot.

So, what happens when you are IFR and the autopilot fails? Do you just throw up your hands and scream, "We're going to die.: ????
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Yep, Ive flown all my instrument (actual, hood, simulator) time whether it be dual or single pilot, without an AP. An AP is a good to have but should never be a go / no go.
 
David Loftus said:
Flying, talking, and navigating single pilot in hard IMC without a reliable and capable AP, especially with an aircraft that does not easily stay in trim, is asking for trouble.
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I used to fly a C-210 in the southeastern US at night in IMC and sometimes down to minimums and no auto pilot.

I have known a few pilots that did not like using a A/P in IMC. Their reasoning being using a A/P means you can't log PIC when the A/P is on...:rolleyes:
 
Zeldman said:
I have known a few pilots that did not like using a A/P in IMC. Their reasoning being using a A/P means you can't log PIC when the A/P is on...:rolleyes:
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Apparently those pilots think that making sure the autopilot is doing what you want it to is not a skill that the FAA cares about. :eek2:
 
I use the A/P enroute, but hand fly approaches. I don’t trust George close to the ground in IMC.
 
I guess mine just isn't as big as some of the guys here as I consider an autopilot mandatory for IFR.
 
FORANE said:
I guess mine just isn't as big as some of the guys here as I consider an autopilot mandatory for IFR.
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Well we’ve been through this a million times on POA. This isn’t about machoism, bragging, etc. It’s about falling back on your training and using what is available to you. The aircraft that I’ve flown simply had no AP. I don’t think some on here realize that military aircraft have been flown safely for decades before APs were common place.

Yes, an AP makes instrument flying less fatiguing but it shouldn’t be a crutch. I think the latest accident (TNFLYGIRL) should highlight the fact that hand flying is a still a crucial skill whether VFR or IFR.
 
Zeldman said:
I used to fly a C-210 in the southeastern US at night in IMC and sometimes down to minimums and no auto pilot.

I have known a few pilots that did not like using a A/P in IMC. Their reasoning being using a A/P means you can't log PIC when the A/P is on...:rolleyes:
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Can you log PIC when the A/P is on and you fall asleep? Asking for a friend.

nypost.com

Both pilots on Ethiopian Airlines flight fall asleep, miss landing

Ethiopian Airlines has suspended two pilots after they reportedly fell asleep during a two-hour flight and overshot the runway at a cruising altitude 37,000 feet.
nypost.com nypost.com
 
Palmpilot said:
Apparently those pilots think that making sure the autopilot is doing what you want it to is not a skill that the FAA cares about. :eek2:
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Exactly.

I would ask, is monitoring the instruments the job of the PIC or the job of the airplane.??
 
All of my instrument training was in airplanes without autopilots. My last airplane was a Cherokee without an autopilot, and I flew it in IMC... but did not like the fact that after I looked at my iPad I would look up and always be in a slight bank. Autopilots are great, but not strictly a necessity for a proficient pilot, in my opinion.
 
Even if on A/P, you still need to monitor it. At least with the G5 I remember in steep turns the A/P or G5 would take over and wings level. Easy enough in VMC but in IMC it’s easy to lose awareness and that increases stress quickly in flight.

I am not sure that my A/P works well, so I don’t use it. I am proud that I did hand fly from Chicago to Alaska and back, with some help from my co-pilot. You start to get used to it and it becomes pretty easy, like using a knee to drive your car. But it isn’t always that easy. The airplane needs to be well balanced and no dramatic wx.
 
mandm said:
I feel a bit embarrassed to post this, but lately I’ve been flying IFR more and into IMC, I am particularly choosing somewhat easier conditions to start with, with ceilings typically 2500’ or so, so I could go back VFR if needed.

On a recent flight, after a bunch of vectoring, some light chop, and complete IMC, I noticed that I was getting behind the airplane, I planned a waypoint (as per the clearance) and was on track, the turbulence not helping as I’m fighting to keep the airplane on heading and altitude while in IMC, all hand flying.

Next, I’m given direct destination, I responded and while I’m setting up the GPS the airplane turns and now I’m going the wrong direction in a turn. Now I’m playing catch up to correct the airplane while the GPS isn’t set up. ATC asks what’s going on and I mentioned I was setting up the GPS, but I’m kind of disappointed in myself.

I got things under control and hand flew the airplane for a considerable amount of time further (still felt behind the aircraft but not as behind) then requested a lower altitude for VMC conditions ahead.
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What are you embarrassed about? You made an error, realized it, and you’re looking to improve. You should be proud of yourself, not embarrassed.
 
Like a few posters above I too have only hand flown all of my hours. I just got rated so I dont have a ton of hours (believe i am at 65 hrs hood and actual imc). I like to think I can handle it well but I do not want to be IMC for more than 15 mins. That's very fatiguing and asking for trouble. I feel like you should be proficient to fly IMC and having to change frequencies, manipulate the GPS, or squacking VFR. If not, I'd go up with a CFI and get more comfortable.
 
Really it’s about how stable the aircraft is. Flying the little TH-67 actual IMC with no AP is a pain. That’s why there was two pilots. Flying the B407 actual IMC without an AP would be flat out suicide. Just way too unstable. But, flying a typical fixed wing, it really shouldn’t be too difficult without an AP. Last instrument flight I did 10 years ago in the Velocity, I flew IMC the who way to Sebastian (Velocity) without an AP. Wasn’t very fatiguing because the plane is very stable hands off.
 
Gonna kick a beehive here, but IMHO we lose far too many to inadvertent vfr into imc. Maybe not a full a/p, but even a simple wing leveler should be required equipment for ifr legal airplanes. They could be made and installed very inexpensively under NORSEE, if the FAA would cooperate.
I was trained in a hershey bar Cherk 140, and those aren't terribly stable (art least mine wasn't), and keeping up the scan, keeping wings level with a shotgun panel while getting rerouted imc from a rapid fire NYC controller was like boot camp.
 
I had an A36 Bonanza with TKS and fully IFR equipped. I often flew IMC without the autopilot, just to keep my skills sharp. In fact on one trip the auto pilot smoked. I flew the balance of the trip (4 hours) in IMC with no auopilot and had no worries, except my engine driven pressure pump died and I had to use the electrically driven pump for and hour or so.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Gonna kick a beehive here, but IMHO we lose far too many to inadvertent vfr into imc. Maybe not a full a/p, but even a simple wing leveler should be required equipment for ifr legal airplanes. They could be made and installed very inexpensively under NORSEE, if the FAA would cooperate.
I was trained in a hershey bar Cherk 140, and those aren't terribly stable (art least mine wasn't), and keeping up the scan, keeping wings level with a shotgun panel while getting rerouted imc from a rapid fire NYC controller was like boot camp.
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You’re talking about two different things here, but I will disagree with both. ;)

for VFR into IMC, the problem generally isn’t the airplane’s equipment, it’s pilot proficiency. An autopilot would be good, but the pilot needs to get the airplane safe before engaging the autopilot. Instrument proficiency is a perishable skill, so I much prefer something that takes advantage of the inherent stability of the airplane. Even a Cherokee should be stable enough. If it isn’t, that would be encouragement to fix the problem rather than let it get worse.

As far as rapid fire clearances in IMC, that’s an issue of proficiency and should be part of your preflight IMSAFE/5P/whatever evaluation. Relying on fallible mechanical devices is not a replacement for flying proficiency, and I often see pilots who rely on the autopilot but don’t know how to manage it properly. Based on what I see day to day, If you can’t divide your attention well enough to copy a clearance, its likely that you’re not proficient enough in autopilot management.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You’re talking about two different things here, but I will disagree with both. ;)

for VFR into IMC, the problem generally isn’t the airplane’s equipment, it’s pilot proficiency. An autopilot would be good, but the pilot needs to get the airplane safe before engaging the autopilot. Instrument proficiency is a perishable skill, so I much prefer something that takes advantage of the inherent stability of the airplane. Even a Cherokee should be stable enough. If it isn’t, that would be encouragement to fix the problem rather than let it get worse.

As far as rapid fire clearances in IMC, that’s an issue of proficiency and should be part of your preflight IMSAFE/5P/whatever evaluation. Relying on fallible mechanical devices is not a replacement for flying proficiency, and I often see pilots who rely on the autopilot but don’t know how to manage it properly. Based on what I see day to day, If you can’t divide your attention well enough to copy a clearance, its likely that you’re not proficient enough in autopilot management.
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Note I said inadvertent vfr into IMC, not an IR pilot on an IFR flight plan, proficient or not. To the classic vfr pilot caught on top, or who made a mistake launching into deteriorating weather, a wing leveler would be a life saver. They should be cheap and ubiquitous under NORSEE.

Case in point, the kid who crashed in Florida recently. Yes, he made a poor decision to launch. Did he deserve to die for it, not to my mind. A wing leveler would have given him a fighting chance.
 
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Chip Sylverne said:
Note I said inadvertent vfr into IMC, not an IR pilot on an IFR flight plan, proficient or not. To the classic vfr pilot caught on top, or who made a mistake launching into deteriorating weather, a wing leveler would be a life saver. They should be cheap and ubiquitous under NORSEE.

Case in point, the kid who crashed in Florida recently. Yes, he made a poor decision to launch. Did he deserve to die for it, not to my mind. A wing leveler would have given him a fighting chance.
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I did note that, but since you limited the solution to “IFR legal” airplanes, and I assumed you don’t think pilots of VFR airplanes deserve to die any more than pilots of IFR airplanes. I could be incorrect on that, however.

I don’t know which accident you’re referring to, but again, I don’t think a wing leveler would give any more chance of survival than anything else, particularly if it happened shortly after takeoff.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I did note that, but since you limited the solution to “IFR legal” airplanes, and I assumed you don’t think pilots of VFR airplanes deserve to die any more than pilots of IFR airplanes. I could be incorrect on that, however.

I don’t know which accident you’re referring to, but again, I don’t think a wing leveler would give any more chance of survival than anything else, particularly if it happened shortly after takeoff.
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I think he’s referencing this accident-
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/pa28-down-near-gainesville-fl.145072/
 
MauleSkinner said:
I did note that, but since you limited the solution to “IFR legal” airplanes, and I assumed you don’t think pilots of VFR airplanes deserve to die any more than pilots of IFR airplanes. I could be incorrect on that, however.

I don’t know which accident you’re referring to, but again, I don’t think a wing leveler would give any more chance of survival than anything else, particularly if it happened shortly after takeoff.
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Pretty heavy on the snark there, aren't you pal.

I can see no reason to burden the Cubs, T Crafts, Aeronca's etc of the fleet, many of which are without electrical systems, with a requirement to install a radio, much less a wing leveler. The stats don't show many involved in vfr into imc fatalities.

I don't think the same can be said of more capable airplanes equipped for ifr.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Pretty heavy on the snark there, aren't you pal.

I can see no reason to burden the Cubs, T Crafts, Aeronca's etc of the fleet, many of which are without electrical systems, with a requirement to install a radio, much less a wing leveler. The stats don't show many involved in vfr into imc fatalities.
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Maybe the lesson should be about how pilots of Cubs, T Crafts, Aeroncas, etc. avoid VFR into IMC accidents fatalities.

What about the airplanes that aren’t IFR legal, but still have electrical systems? And the airplanes that most pilots wouldn’t fly IFR, even though they’re legally equipped?
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t think some on here realize that military aircraft have been flown safely for decades before APs were common place.
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Even after they were.

I learned instrument flying in an aircraft with a single com radio and single nav radio and no autopilot. And jet engines. :D

Next up with another jet with single nav and com, no autopilot but did have DME.

I flew an operational aircraft that had no autopilot, 2 coms and a single nav with DME.

This was in 1980 - 86
 
David Loftus said:
Agreed. The most I would do IMC without an AP is climb straight through a low overcast layer to VFR on Top. Flying, talking, and navigating single pilot in hard IMC without a reliable and capable AP, especially with an aircraft that does not easily stay in trim, is asking for trouble.
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I was recently in the soup for an hour from 700 ft AGL all the way up to cruising altitude and never broke out until approach at 700 ft AGL. Single-pilot IFR, no autopilot. I've got dual G5's but even still, I never worked so hard in my life. It's harder than a sim because you're consciously having to fight and ignore the false "human gyro" signals you're getting. Although I flew fine, the experience helped me realize that ceilings and visibility aren't the only minimums we should set. I think "time in IMC" is equally important. I'd much rather have a 500 ft ceiling where I break out on top at 2000 and cruise in VMC the entire time than a 1000 ft ceiling where I cruise in IMC the entire time.
 
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