Southwest Stuck in the Mud at Islip

Sure. Little fast in the turn, a little icy taxiway and into the grass. Stuff happens
 
flyingmoose said:
Sure. Little fast in the turn, a little icy taxiway and into the grass. Stuff happens
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You ever notice how often stuff like that seems to happen with Southwest?

They have a culture that tends to promote stuff like that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You ever notice how often stuff like that seems to happen with Southwest?

They have a culture that tends to promote stuff like that.
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Interesting comment...

When I read what you wrote, the first thing I thought of was the Midway over-run. Because of how my brain works, my next thought was, "would that be a culture of profitability?" ;)

Seriously, though, never gave it much thought. Are there any data to back it up - maybe something comparing incidents to total operations?
 
joe1.jpg


Capt. Benson: You might tell your mechanic that I've got three million miles in the air.
Joe Patroni: And two and a half feet into the ground
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You ever notice how often stuff like that seems to happen with Southwest?

They have a culture that tends to promote stuff like that.
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Well, I guess, but Southwest seems to have a pretty good safety record, a couple overruns notwithstanding.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You ever notice how often stuff like that seems to happen with Southwest?

They have a culture that tends to promote stuff like that.
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Clearly that is not the case. They have never had a fatal crash in more than 4 decades of flying frequently, mostly short-haul routes. Even their incident rate has been extraordinarily low for their type of operation.

As to the culture, whether it's your cup of tea or not, it's clearly enabled them to be one of the safest airlines in the world, and one of the most consistently successful companies in business. Employees are happy, the company consistently makes money, and customer satisfaction is consistently high. Not sure where the problem is with that type of culture.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
Clearly that is not the case. They have never had a fatal crash in more than 4 decades of flying frequently, mostly short-haul routes. Even their incident rate has been extraordinarily low for their type of operation.
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That statistic is only valid if you negate the fact that they killed a six year old boy who was riding in a car when they decided to take the plane to an off-airport gas station to top it off.

Still they have a better than average record.
 
JGoodish said:
Clearly that is not the case. They have never had a fatal crash in more than 4 decades of flying frequently, mostly short-haul routes. Even their incident rate has been extraordinarily low for their type of operation.


JKG
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Incorrct statment. They killed a little boy in '05 or "04 at MDW when they overran the field and ended up on top of an SUV in a gas station. Just one of this type of incident incidents. I had to file an FSAP one time because a Southwest ignored grounds instructions to yield to us as we were exiting on the high speed. He actually accelerated forcing us to use near max braking to keep from hitting him. All so he could beat us to the terminal. Wish I could say this was an isolated incident but I've seen this type of behavior too often. "The lack of accidents does not mean the presence of safety"
 
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Southwest - YEEEEEEE HAAAAWW !!!! "Hold on Luke , she's headed for the rhubarb " !
They also have the highest labor costs of all airlines.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Southwest - YEEEEEEE HAAAAWW !!!! "Hold on Luke , she's headed for the rhubarb " !
They also have the highest labor costs of all airlines.
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And yet their employees and customers seem happy.

There were many factors leading to the MDW overrun. Not saying SWA was blameless, but I don't think they were grossly negligent either.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
That was also the crash where the pilot prior to the accident sequence made the comment that he picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
 
FAA: Poor cockpit resource management, no alcohol impairment.


An FAA investigation has found that the pilots of a Southwest Airlines flight that got stuck in mud after veering off the runway showed “poor cockpit resource management.”

Newsday, citing FAA records, says the agency cited both pilots for failure to obtain clearance from air traffic control before entering the taxiway...

Both men in the cockpit recorded zero on the breath test for alcohol. The FAA placed them in a safety program, which it described as a “safety partnership” between the agency and airlines.
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http://www.mycentraljersey.com/view...e-stuck-mud-FAA-report-cites-Southwest-pilots

image.JPG

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...ilots-in-macarthur-taxiway-incident-1.4905497
The Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 that got stuck in mud after veering off a taxiway at Long Island MacArthur Airport was dug out using hand shovels, a front-end loader and an aircraft tug
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Sounds like they need some retraining in soft field landings.....
 
maddog52 said:
Incorrct statment. They killed a little boy in '05 or "04 at MDW when they overran the field and ended up on top of an SUV in a gas station. Just one of this type of incident incidents. I had to file an FSAP one time because a Southwest ignored grounds instructions to yield to us as we were exiting on the high speed. He actually accelerated forcing us to use near max braking to keep from hitting him. All so he could beat us to the terminal. Wish I could say this was an isolated incident but I've seen this type of behavior too often. "The lack of accidents does not mean the presence of safety"
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I realize this is a few months old, but I have to respond to your disingenuous and misleading comments.

To my knowledge, Southwest has never had a passenger fatality as a result of a crash or any other accident or incident for which they were directly responsible. They have had very, very few accidents or serious incidents compared with other major airlines, especially given the frequency of their operations. Their safety record is head and shoulders above every other major domestic carrier, as is their financial performance and, from what I can tell, their labor and customer relations track record is substantially better as well.

The lack of accidents doesn't mean the presence of safety, but the lack of accidents over a 40+ year history doesn't happen by chance. A culture of safety breeds a history of it, as Southwest has aptly demonstrated.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
I realize this is a few months old, but I have to respond to your disingenuous and misleading comments.

To my knowledge, Southwest has never had a passenger fatality as a result of a crash or any other accident or incident for which they were directly responsible. They have had very, very few accidents or serious incidents compared with other major airlines, especially given the frequency of their operations. Their safety record is head and shoulders above every other major domestic carrier, as is their financial performance and, from what I can tell, their labor and customer relations track record is substantially better as well.

The lack of accidents doesn't mean the presence of safety, but the lack of accidents over a 40+ year history doesn't happen by chance. A culture of safety breeds a history of it, as Southwest has aptly demonstrated.


JKG
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I won't apologize for anything in the post because it is all accurate and truthful.
 
flyingron said:
That statistic is only valid if you negate the fact that they killed a six year old boy who was riding in a car when they decided to take the plane to an off-airport gas station to top it off.
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"Decided"?

maddog52 said:
Incorrct statment. They killed a little boy in '05 or "04 at MDW when they overran the field and ended up on top of an SUV in a gas station. Just one of this type of incident incidents. I had to file an FSAP one time because a Southwest ignored grounds instructions to yield to us as we were exiting on the high speed. He actually accelerated forcing us to use near max braking to keep from hitting him. All so he could beat us to the terminal. Wish I could say this was an isolated incident but I've seen this type of behavior too often. "The lack of accidents does not mean the presence of safety"
Click to expand...

Actually, it does. You cannot conduct operations with persistently unsafe practices without having elevated accident rates, especially with the very substantial number of daily flights they operate.

Art VanDelay said:
Southwest - YEEEEEEE HAAAAWW !!!! "Hold on Luke , she's headed for the rhubarb " !
They also have the highest labor costs of all airlines.
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And still make money... efficient and well-run, respect for the people. Always an open-door at corporate for everyone who works there.

maddog52 said:
I won't apologize for anything in the post because it is all accurate and truthful.
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The recitals of documented fact need no apology; the decision to ascribe motives is... unseemly.

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FWIW, I am acquainted with some pretty senior folks in the pilot ranks, they tell me that there is absolutely no pressure to hurry in taxiing- "You can't make up a schedule on the taxiway" was the comment I got. Their ASAP program is pretty aggressive.

You cannot cheat odds for that long. Think about it.
 
JGoodish said:
I realize this is a few months old, but I have to respond to your disingenuous and misleading comments.

To my knowledge, Southwest has never had a passenger fatality as a result of a crash or any other accident or incident for which they were directly responsible.
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His comments were not disingenuous or misleading.

Fact is, SWA (through a combination of poor CRM, pilot error and an ambiguous policy on taking credit for thrust reversers in calculating landing distance combined with an ambiguous change in policy at the time regarding use of Auto Brakes) was responsible for the death of a child in the 2005 MDW accident.

Yes, they have a better safety record than most, but there does seem to be some degree of commonality in the accidents and incidents they have experienced- overruns.
 
And another thing - majors pulled themselves together recently despite serial bankrupcies and mergers, while Southwest was floating without aim ever since the blue-belly livery. We had no fatals for 4 years across the nation, so SWA do not have an advantage anymore.
 
SCCutler said:
The recitals of documented fact need no apology; the decision to ascribe motives is... unseemly.


You cannot cheat odds for that long. Think about it.
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Very well said.

Fearless Tower said:
His comments were not disingenuous or misleading.
.
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Sure they were! They (the crew of said MDW flight) made a serious set of errors. That said your cannot paint an entire company with a terrible safety practices on one side of your mouth and then say their safety record is among the best on the other side of your mouth.
 
So long as they make it easier to travel and the others make it hard, SWA will always have an advantage. The safety record for all carriers is sufficient to eliminate any meaningful objections.

zaitcev said:
And another thing - majors pulled themselves together recently despite serial bankrupcies and mergers, while Southwest was floating without aim ever since the blue-belly livery. We had no fatals for 4 years across the nation, so SWA do not have an advantage anymore.
Click to expand...
 
flyingmoose said:
Sure they were! They (the crew of said MDW flight) made a serious set of errors. That said your cannot paint an entire company with a terrible safety practices on one side of your mouth and then say their safety record is among the best on the other side of your mouth.
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Excuse me? How were they disengenuous or misleading?

Maddog pointed out the innacuracy in Jgoodish's statement that SWA had never had a fatality. Simple fact is - they have and company policy had a big role in that fatality.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Excuse me? How were they disengenuous or misleading?

Maddog pointed out the innacuracy in Jgoodish's statement that SWA had never had a fatality. Simple fact is - they have and company policy had a big role in that fatality.
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I believe that last can be said about nearly every aircraft accident, involving every carrier. Right?
 
SCCutler said:
I believe that last can be said about nearly every aircraft accident, involving every carrier. Right?
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Quite possibly. Only thing unique in that regard for SWA is the commonality of overruns in their history.
 
Not the only airline to wind up in the mud. I recall a Hughes AirWest F-27 doing that at KPUW a few decades ago. :D
 
Fearless Tower said:
Quite possibly. Only thing unique in that regard for SWA is the commonality of overruns in their history.
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It is strikingly simple to find multiple runway overruns for every major carrier; perhaps you notice them more with WN, because there are no other accidents of any consequence to overshadow them?
 
IME, Southwest tends to taxi faster and use more brake/thrust reverse to make the shorter taxiway than the other airlines. Not unsafe, but operating closer to the edge than the other airlines that taxi slower or brake less aggressively.

Southwest pilots also like to start throttling up to take off power while rounding the corner onto the runway. It isn't uncommon to hear the engines roll back a bit as they try and keep the plane out of the weeds while completing the turn. The few seconds saved by throttling up before having the plane pointed down the runway is just extra risk for no reward.

I don't have a problem flying them because when their luck does run out, the probability of me being on that flight is low.
 
SCCutler said:
It is strikingly simple to find multiple runway overruns for every major carrier; perhaps you notice them more with WN, because there are no other accidents of any consequence to overshadow them?
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This is true
 
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