sound quality — radio or audio panel

DKirkpatrick

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DKirkpatrick
Hi, Is sound quality a function of an amplified signal coming out of the audio panel? Or is quality and clarity a function of the radio, ergo signal strength, etc. The newer audio panels are great looking with tons of functionality that I'll never use in this airplane installation.
Put in real application terms: will the sound out of a King KY197 Comm, about 16 watts output, be better and cleaner out of a KMA24 audio panel, or a newer Garmin 340 for instance?
Thanks in advance for any coaching coming my way.
—dan
 
Hi, Is sound quality a function of an amplified signal coming out of the audio panel? Or is quality and clarity a function of the radio, ergo signal strength, etc. The newer audio panels are great looking with tons of functionality that I'll never use in this airplane installation.
Put in real application terms: will the sound out of a King KY197 Comm, about 16 watts output, be better and cleaner out of a KMA24 audio panel, or a newer Garmin 340 for instance?
Thanks in advance for any coaching coming my way.
—dan

The answer to your question is yes. If the sound coming out of the Com is horrible, the best audio panel in the world won't clean it up, save using a lot of trickery using digital filtering and reconstituting the audio (which GA aircraft audio panels generally do not do).

By the same answer, if the Com audio is clean, a poorly designed audio panel can glom it up by clipping, horrible design errors in amplification and the like.

A good analogy might be an engine-propeller combination. The best propeller in the world won't make a ratty engine smoother, nor will a smooth engine with a ratty propeller function well.

Jim
 
I cannot speak for all audio panels, but the Collins audio panel in my plane does not alter the low level audio ( headphone audio ) coming from my navcoms. It functions as a switch panel. It does have a marker beacon receiver built in and an amplifier for the speaker...but if it fails, you can still receive using headphones.
 
so... is the sound quality going to be better, let's say again, using the king ky197 (about 16 watts output), from a King KMA24 audio panel, or a much newer Garmin 340? Assuming the comm is putting out a good clean signal...
?
 
so... is the sound quality going to be better, let's say again, using the king ky197 (about 16 watts output), from a King KMA24 audio panel, or a much newer Garmin 340? Assuming the comm is putting out a good clean signal...
?

I'm sorry, sir, but that doesn't make much sense. How do you get 16 watts of output (audio) from a ky197? And as to whether the audio from the King or the Garmin has better audio quality, you need something better than a calibrated ear to measure it.

Jim
 
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thanks anyway... just trying to find out if I get better sound quality from a new unit — which will cost me alot for features I don't need nor wanna pay for, or if a regular unit like a KMA24 will still give me good sound quality into the headset. that's all.
 
thanks anyway... just trying to find out if I get better sound quality from a new unit — which will cost me alot for features I don't need nor wanna pay for, or if a regular unit like a KMA24 will still give me good sound quality into the headset. that's all.
OK, but I'm curious where you found that your Com radio was capable of 16 watts of output?
 
16 watts is transmitter power, has nothing to do with audio that you hear.
 
16 watts is transmitter power, has nothing to do with audio that you hear.
The 197 transmits at 7 watts, the 197A at 10 watts and the 196 at 16 watts.
 
The 197 transmits at 7 watts, the 197A at 10 watts and the 196 at 16 watts.
Not familiar with the specific radio, point remains the same that transmitter power has nothing to do with the audio quality you hear through the headphones. I think the OP was confusing transmitter watts with audio watts like a 100 watt stereo.
 
16 watts is transmitter power, has nothing to do with audio that you hear.
That was going to be my point. Or if he WAS getting 16 watts of audio out of it, it would have to be going to a speaker. Headphone output is rated in RMS volts, not in watts. And NOBODY uses speakers any more if you give a damn about your hearing in a few thousand hours.
 
That was going to be my point. Or if he WAS getting 16 watts of audio out of it, it would have to be going to a speaker. Headphone output is rated in RMS volts, not in watts. And NOBODY uses speakers any more if you give a damn about your hearing in a few thousand hours.
The 197A has an intercom function, so it does output to a 4 ohm speaker. However, the 197 does not have an intercom and therefore does not have the speaker output.
 
yeah, you're right Hang 4. that was my confusion. here's what I found:
The KY-196 also features:

  • Simultaneous digital display of both active and standby frequencies
  • Push button frequency flip-flop
  • 16 watts transmit power
  • TSO'd
 
The 197A has an intercom function, so it does output to a 4 ohm speaker. However, the 197 does not have an intercom and therefore does not have the speaker output.
WHAT ??? That makes absolutely no sense. Having an intercom function has absolutely no bearing on whether a radio has speaker output capability.

Jim
 
is there an amplifier in the audio panel? or is it just for switching between inputs?
 
You got me Jim. Let me admit that I was making no sense and get that "loud and clear". I get it. NO SENSE. You made your point. Good job.
 
WHAT ??? That makes absolutely no sense. Having an intercom function has absolutely no bearing on whether a radio has speaker output capability.
is there an amplifier in the audio panel? or is it just for switching between inputs?
The 196A/197A have both a speaker output and a line level audio output. The 196/197 only have a line level audio output.
 
I purchased my plane with KMA 24 audio panel, GNS-430W, and KX155. Both radios sounded similar.

After installing a new PS Engineering 450A... Wow the KX155 sounded much better, but the 430W was unleashed.

Others above are correct it’s both the radio and audio panel, but the audio panel is a much bigger factor, especially the modern integrated intercom. I rented a plane with 430/kx155 and KMA 28 audio panel when mine was in maintenance. I got spoiled, and the rental was very tough to adjust backwards.
 
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You got me Jim. Let me admit that I was making no sense and get that "loud and clear". I get it. NO SENSE. You made your point. Good job.

I wasn't trying to do a good job or make a good point. I was simply asking for a technically correct reasonable answer so I could make a correct answer.

Jim
 
I would think to get the answer you would want to look at the audio specifications for the units being considered. I found a document for the Garmin 340 but it had no audio output information.

I fly with a Flightline 760 radio with a built in intercom. Specifications such as I'm referring to are found for it on page 12 of this document:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/FL-760a.pdf
 
I purchased my plane with KMA 24 audio panel, GNS-430W, and KX155. Both radios sounded similar.

After installing a new PS Engineering 450A... Wow the KX155 sounded much better, but the 430W was unleashed.

Others above are correct it’s both the radio and audio panel, but the audio panel is a much bigger factor, especially the modern integrated intercom. I rented a plane with 430/kx155 and KMA 28 audio panel when mine was in maintenance. I got spoiled, and the rental was very tough to adjust backwards.
Yes, the entire system needs to be considered. You could have an expensive Dolby Atmos surround sound speaker set and high end THX amplifier but if it's connected to a crappy old analog TV it's going to sound terrible. Same with the latest ATSC3.0 TV, high end THX amplifier and crappy speakers, etc.
 
thanks anyway... just trying to find out if I get better sound quality from a new unit — which will cost me alot for features I don't need nor wanna pay for, or if a regular unit like a KMA24 will still give me good sound quality into the headset. that's all.

You do not need to buy an expensive feature filled audio panel like a Garmin 340.
PS Engineering makes a whole range of audio panels from solid, basic functionality up to the most exotic features available. Find the product that fits your requirements. You and your airplane will both be happier.

Mark Scheuer can probably answer your original question with more knowledge and experience than most of us here.

Paging @mscheuer
 
Do static wicks help all the time, even just a little, or only when flying in certain meterological conditions?
 
Do static wicks help all the time, even just a little, or only when flying in certain meterological conditions?

I think those are mostly effective when in IMC in the clouds.
 
The radio power rating is related to the power that is transmitted through the antenna, not the audio power to the panel or speaker.
 
With the Garmin panel it's probably the audio panel. They're junk. I've got one on the shelf now ( don't get me started as to Garmin's miserable service policies) that makes COM1 sound like a kazoo.
 
Thanks for the help and input on the subject. Audio quality is an issue around my home base with alot of traffic sometimes, et al. Output "thru the antenna" is important, too... there's enough mountains around here (and again, traffic) that you really wanna be heard in a broadcast too. I appreciate everyone's response and your taking the time to share your insight.
dan
 
Hi, Is sound quality a function of an amplified signal coming out of the audio panel? Or is quality and clarity a function of the radio, ergo signal strength, etc. The newer audio panels are great looking with tons of functionality that I'll never use in this airplane installation.
Put in real application terms: will the sound out of a King KY197 Comm, about 16 watts output, be better and cleaner out of a KMA24 audio panel, or a newer Garmin 340 for instance?
Thanks in advance for any coaching coming my way.
—dan
Hi Dan, I have to say that the wealth of information regarding your question on POA is nothing short of amazing. Frankly, when I started PS Engineering in 1985, it was always my goal to provide no-nonsense audio control for GA. I really never gave any "thought" about audio quality, it was a given that our intercoms/panels would be designed for the best possible audio quality.

When we first introduced our Plug N Play PMA8000 in 2004 for the GMA340, I was really surprised by all of the PIREPS stating how much better our audio sounded! Ugh, I was much keener on their reports on our IntelliVox(R), Bluetooth(R), digital recorder, and other of the finer details.

Reading all of the responses Dan, lots of factors were touched upon regarding audio quality. My opinion is the audio quality is a combination of the audio panel, intercom, radio, harnesses, and antenna. For just intercom audio fidelity, if our intercom/audio panels are wired per our installation manual, chances are high that you will be very happy with intercom and music fidelity. However, since the sidetone that is heard during radio transmissions comes from the radio, an improperly installed intercom, or antenna with poor bonding to the airframe, or coaxial cable that has have aged, the transmit sidetone would get worse with the higher output of the transmitter. That is due to Radio Frequency Interference.

Bottom line, if you invest in an audio system and an avionics shop that knows how to properly install an audio panel, and if they check the SWR of your antenna system, you have the ability to really enjoy your audio while you are flying the friendly skies.
 
Bottom line, if you invest in an audio system and an avionics shop that knows how to properly install an audio panel, and if they check the SWR of your antenna system, you have the ability to really enjoy your audio while you are flying the friendly skies.

Good to hear from you again, Mark. Next month's Kitplanes article is on how to check your antenna for VSWR and failing connectors. For pennies, of course.

Jim from RST
 
thanks anyway... just trying to find out if I get better sound quality from a new unit — which will cost me alot for features I don't need nor wanna pay for, or if a regular unit like a KMA24 will still give me good sound quality into the headset. that's all.

You are talking about a radio band which, by design, supports audio response little better than telephone quality, not broadcast, and is AM to boot (remember, aircraft radios and ATC comms was developed before FM was invented and inherited all the issues with amplitude modulation, which was the standard at the time). Maybe (maybe!) 3KHz voice channel on a good day. The KMA24 is a decent, if functionally limited, audio panel; there are still tons of them flying around giving good service. If the radio is aligned properly, the jacks and your headset in good condition, the wiring not buggered up from years of fat-fingering behind the panel, the speaker in good nick, you will be fine.

Now, if you want to upgrade to the latest PS or Garmin panel with all the bells and whistles and slide that 197 out for the latest and greatest comm...you will still be limited by the FCC bandwidth/rejection/response parameters set for the aeronautical radio service. Will it be better? Perhaps. Will YOU hear what you sound like on the other end? Not unless they play the skimmer tape back for you. Can you plug in your smart device, call for clearances, and listen to tunes while committing aviation and have it sound good with the new stuff? Sure. If you have the AMUs to spend...it's your ride.

Full disclosure: hold a general radiotelephone license after my 1st Phone expired in '83, 15 years in radio station engineering, and partner for 5 years in an avionics shop (and an extra class amateur license). My suggestion? Have your local shop go through the chain from the mic input to the antenna, get the 197 aligned (there are still shops who know how, despite King's pulling back of the tech manuals), have them run an SWR check on the antenna system and get what you have working at its best and go fly. Yeah, it may cost you half an AMU. But that's a lot cheaper than a new panel, radio, etc without knowing whether what you have now can be/is working correctly.

Just my $.02; for the record, no financial interest in any of the manufacturers mentioned, any avionics shop, or provide equivalent services...just talking from personal experience and observation.
 
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You are talking about a radio band which, by

Finally, FINALLY, the voice of reason. What he says is the absolute truth. You will NEVER get better than telephone quality audio from an aviation AM COM radio. Never. Worse, under some conditions, yes. But never better. But then again, we've all been flying with AM radio since the 1920s and nobody seems to mind that we can all get good communications with it (albeit sometimes tinny). And the man is correct, your audio panel isn't all that shabby. Outdated? Yes. Bells and whistles? Yes. But extremely functional until you decide you want more "hi-i" from your audio system.

Now, if you want to upgrade to the latest PS or Garmin panel with all the bells and whistles and slide that 197 out for the latest and greatest comm...you will still be limited by the FCC bandwidth/rejection/response parameters set for the aeronautical radio service. Will it be better? Perhaps. Will YOU hear what you sound like on the other end? Not unless they play the skimmer tape back for you. Can you plug in your smart device, call for clearances, and listen to tunes while committing aviation and have it sound good with the new stuff? Sure. If you have the AMUs to spend...it's your ride.

Is true. But fix your radio first. Then, if you want the bells and whistles and are willing to spend the money, go for it.

Full disclosure: hold a general radiotelephone license after my 1st Phone expired in '83, 15 years in radio station engineering, and partner for 5 years in an avionics shop (and an extra class amateur license).

Full disclosure: Hold the same general FCC radiotelephone paper after mine expired. Started fixing Narco Omingators when I was 14 with a neighbor who was an avionics tech back in the day when you could do it from the back of your pickup truck (1957) and my local airport dirt strip. Worked my way through college as an avionics technician for a major airline, and graduated with a degree in Semiconductor Physics. Was immediately employed on the Surveyor, Apollo, and Viking space programs as a radar engineer. Got my MSEE at night. Founded an avionics manufacturing company in 1973 that is going today. Invited author monthly column on avionics in Kitplanes Magazine. Amateur Radio Extra and Qualified FCC Examiner. Qualified FCC Type Acceptance Engineer. I ain't got nuthin' more, other than A&P IA.

My suggestion? Have your local shop go through the chain from the mic input to the antenna, get the 197 aligned (there are still shops who know how, despite King's pulling back of the tech manuals), have them run an SWR check on the antenna system and get what you have working at its best and go fly. Yeah, it may cost you half an AMU. But that's a lot cheaper than a new panel, radio, etc without knowing whether what you have now can be/is working correctly.

I'll modify the suggestion, if you don't mind. Three major parts to the problem. Radio. Cable. Antenna. First, test the airplane radio IN THE AIRCRAFT for power output and modulation. Then, use the aircraft radio power output to drive a VSWR detector on the cable-antenna combination. Then, load the cable with a dummy load and see what happens. If all this check out, you've got an audio problem, but from what you've given us to date, it sounds like an RF problem.

Just my $.02; for the record, no financial interest in any of the manufacturers mentioned, any avionics shop, or provide equivalent services...just talking from personal experience and observation.

$0.02 Isn't that 8% of two bits :) Mine too. Let see if we can solve this problem between us.

Jim
 
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Full disclosure: hold a general radiotelephone license after my 1st Phone expired in '83, 15 years in radio station engineering, and partner for 5 years in an avionics shop (and an extra class amateur license).
Wow, we have a similar history. I also have a radiotelegraph license (which got me a letter from a maritime union offering to help me find a shipgoing job). You do know that you can get credit for your Extra if you did it when 20WPM was required. There's no FCC fee for the additional license, but you do have to take another written I believe (which PSI will gouge you on just like the abuse their bribe-driven monoplly with the FAA).
 
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