Someone brought the clubs 182 to Mammoth on a windy day.

CharlieTango

CharlieTango

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CharlieTango
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Be prepared when coming here on windy days, avoid the first 3,000' of runway 27.
 
Ugh - that's heartbreaking to see.
 
Ugh. It's painful when airplanes pay the price for not knowing one's limitations. :(
 
ahkahn said:
Silly question, I know, but what happened?!?!
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Dunno but I was just back down at the airport to deal with some wind damage. It is up to 75mph.

I think they took the warning to 'avoid the first 3,000' of RNWY 27 when southerly winds exceed 15kts' off of the AWOS.

Landing short on 27 in these conditions you will encounter wind shear that you are better off avoiding and a 182.

I would expect that his directional control was challenged before the wind snapped behind the wing. I bet that nose gets real heavy when you get tail winded, just guessing it looks like something resulting in either porpoising or just a hard contact on the nose gear.
 
OK, that's what I was thinking. The 3000' warning had me wondering!
 
A & E also has a fixed gear 182 it looks like.............
 
What happens with the first 3000'? I see the A/FD says turbulence and windshear. Why doesn't that happen with the next 4000'? I have never landed there but have driven by the airport many times and it seems the terrain is basically the same all the way along the runway.
 
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DesertNomad said:
What happens with the first 3000'. I see the A/FD says turbulence and windshear. Why doesn't that happen with the next 4000'? I have never landed there but have driven by the airport many times and it seems the terrains is basically the same all the way along the runway.
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The southerly crosswind is complex it comes mostly from Convict canyon (13,000'+ terrain) abeam midfield and is usually turbulent due to the 1,500' glacial moraines. The actual prevailing wind at altitude is generally SW so there is also a west wind coming from Mammoth Pass colliding with this south wind and creating mid-field shear.

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In the first 3,000' there is high terrain on the north side. The south wind first hits the high moraine and become turbulent then crosses the runway in the 1st 3,000' and and hits 'Doe Ridge' the high terrain just across the runway and then rotors back laterally in 2 distinct northerly crosswinds.

There is also the termination of the Owens Valley sending an east wind that can collide mid field.

So in the 1st 3,000' of 27 you can encounter an East wind, 2 north wind rotors with opposing rotations, a turbulent south wind and a west wind.

We know to overfly the 1st 3,000' because that takes us to where the old runway used to end.

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Thank you for the great description. I am based at KRNO and would need to find a really nice, calm day to take a trip to Mammoth... sounds like some crazy winds down there.
 
DesertNomad said:
Thank you for the great description. I am based at KRNO and would need to find a really nice, calm day to take a trip to Mammoth... sounds like some crazy winds down there.
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Most of the time its no big deal beyond the high DA. When a meaningful SW exists it gets interesting.
 
may need a refresher in cross wind,wind shear landings.
 
evapilotaz said:
What a lame place to build a airport.
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It's in the best possible spot it could be for an airport in that area.

Its a lame airport for lame pilots.

Respect the DA and the weather....

One of the most beautiful places to visit IMO. But I have a soft spot for the Eastern Sierra....JMT...and all it has to offer.
 
Ouch, snapped nose gear and dinged props, that's an engine teardown.

We had Mtn Wave here for soaring. Rough below 3K AGL through the shear and then connect to the wave. Winds on the ground were between 10-20knts, mostly down the runway. Wind aloft was about 30-35knts. Had to knock off the climb at 14K, no O2 on board in the club Grob.
 
Ouch


Pranging the nose wheel, or a PIO is simply a result of bad training and technique IMO.

Sorry about your clubs plane.
 
TEFLONSEAN said:
One of the most beautiful places to visit IMO. But I have a soft spot for the Eastern Sierra.
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+1. I've flown to MMH several times. If the wind is too much, go down the hill to Bishop. It is an airport to be respected, not feared.
 
James331 said:
Ouch


Pranging the nose wheel, or a PIO is simply a result of bad training and technique IMO.

Sorry about your clubs plane.
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I agree with you but it is the days when the crosswind is 20G40 that gets them. Also days when you can't avoid a downwind landing gets pretty exciting in my light sport.

I'm not sure why I find this so humorous. I guess I've never seen travel advisories for hikers coming from NWS
"IMPACTS: OUTDOOR ENTHUSIASTS WILL EXPERIENCE DIFFICULT
CONDITIONS TRYING TO STAND OR MOVE ON TRAILS AND EXPOSED
RIDGETOPS. POORLY SECURED OR LOOSE OBJECTS LEFT OUTSIDE WILL BE BLOWN AWAY."

I was called to a jobsite across from the airport today to remove building materials from the trees.
 
I wonder if the collapsed nose gear prevented damage to the firewall.
 
It appears that the runway was shifted eastward from its previous location, which then subjected it to this problem. Any idea why?


JKG
 
CharlieTango said:
The southerly crosswind is complex it comes mostly from Convict canyon (13,000'+ terrain) abeam midfield and is usually turbulent due to the 1,500' glacial moraines. The actual prevailing wind at altitude is generally SW so there is also a west wind coming from Mammoth Pass colliding with this south wind and creating mid-field shear.


In the first 3,000' there is high terrain on the north side. The south wind first hits the high moraine and become turbulent then crosses the runway in the 1st 3,000' and and hits 'Doe Ridge' the high terrain just across the runway and then rotors back laterally in 2 distinct northerly crosswinds.

There is also the termination of the Owens Valley sending an east wind that can collide mid field.

So in the 1st 3,000' of 27 you can encounter an East wind, 2 north wind rotors with opposing rotations, a turbulent south wind and a west wind.

We know to overfly the 1st 3,000' because that takes us to where the old runway used to end.
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Speaks volumes
 
Only one slightly bent prop tip?

Are we sure this happened on the runway, rather than due to that crappy tie down job in high winds?

I'd expect that prop to look a lot worse -- and for all the tips to be damaged -- if he landed hard enough on the nosegear to collapse it. And the sideload should have taken out a wingtip.
 
JGoodish said:
It appears that the runway was shifted eastward from its previous location, which then subjected it to this problem. Any idea why?

JKG
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Before the shift Convict Canyon Rd (now mid field) was the airport entrance. The objective was to lengthen the runway and by closing the existing entrance it opened up the area all the way down to the Owens Crossing Rd. That is such a long way that the limited the west end to limit the length to 7,000'.

Back then and until recent studies the problem was going to be addressed with a cross-wind runway. Now that the crosswind runway is out and the development is done we are stuck with the additional wind shear.

The development objectives have been influenced by greed and the town was spanked by the courts and is now paying off a $50M debt to the FBO.
 
MAKG1 said:
Only one slightly bent prop tip?

Are we sure this happened on the runway, rather than due to that crappy tie down job in high winds?

I'd expect that prop to look a lot worse -- and for all the tips to be damaged -- if he landed hard enough on the nosegear to collapse it. And the sideload should have taken out a wingtip.
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I'll see what I can find out.
 
I've seen a disproportionate number of 182 RG's with a broken nose gear. At one time there were two parked at KTVL.

But yeah MMH is a dicey place to land even when the winds are light. I agree it's best just to go down the hill to Bishop. Plus it's easier to get a rental car there.
 
Both Hertz and Enterprise are at MMH. Bishop has Enterprise (downtown, <2 miles away, they'll pick up), and the Enterprise at MMH and Bishop are owned by the same franchisee (they'll move cars between the locations as needed). Hot Creek Aviation will handle before/after-hours rental car arrangements (with Hertz, I think).
 
Used to see that at Avalon a bunch as well. The hump in the middle made the runway look half its length from either end. People would land long and fast then stand on the brakes thinking the were going to run off (a Lear crashed due to this, he tried to get back off and couldn't make flying speed). Thing is there was a speed bump about 1/3rd of the way up the runway (I heard it survived the repave) and just as people were standing on the brakes and the weight is shifting to the nose gear, they hit the speed bump. 182s were the most common.
 
CharlieTango said:
The southerly crosswind is complex it comes mostly from Convict canyon (13,000'+ terrain) abeam midfield and is usually turbulent due to the 1,500' glacial moraines. The actual prevailing wind at altitude is generally SW so there is also a west wind coming from Mammoth Pass colliding with this south wind and creating mid-field shear.



post-6-0-01648800-1369762389.jpg




In the first 3,000' there is high terrain on the north side. The south wind first hits the high moraine and become turbulent then crosses the runway in the 1st 3,000' and and hits 'Doe Ridge' the high terrain just across the runway and then rotors back laterally in 2 distinct northerly crosswinds.



There is also the termination of the Owens Valley sending an east wind that can collide mid field.



So in the 1st 3,000' of 27 you can encounter an East wind, 2 north wind rotors with opposing rotations, a turbulent south wind and a west wind.



We know to overfly the 1st 3,000' because that takes us to where the old runway used to end.



post-6-0-21991000-1369762391.jpg
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Thanks for explaining this to us flatlanders.
 
According to the line man this 182 landed on 27 with gusts to 50kts. The incident happened at Alpha 1, turning off the runway there would likely put the bulk of that 50kts on your tail. :yikes:

Two lessons here,
1) Avoid the 1st 3,000' of 27 when southerly crosswinds exceed 15kts.
2) Request wing walkers before turning downwind to exit the runway.
 
CharlieTango said:
According to the line man this 182 landed on 27 with gusts to 50kts. The incident happened at Alpha 1, turning off the runway there would likely put the bulk of that 50kts on your tail. :yikes:

Two lessons here,
1) Avoid the 1st 3,000' of 27 when southerly crosswinds exceed 15kts.
2) Request wing walkers before turning downwind to exit the runway.
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:confused: If you follow basic taxi control rules, 'climb into, dive away', in high winds, you will have little problem. Tail draggers without a locking Tailwheel can have some issues that take some skill and throttle work, and occasionally a 270° turn, but I used to taxi in all sorts of hellacious winds in W-Texas and never needed a wing walker.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
:confused: If you follow basic taxi control rules, 'climb into, dive away', in high winds, you will have little problem. Tail draggers without a locking Tailwheel can have some issues that take some skill and throttle work, and occasionally a 270° turn, but I used to taxi in all sorts of hellacious winds in W-Texas and never needed a wing walker.:dunno:
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Its not just the wind velocity but all of the shear. This 182 exited where there is high terrain on both sides and resulting winds and rotors from 5 directions at once.

The AFD says: Arpt lctd in mountainous terrain with ocnl strong winds and turbulence... With southerly crosswinds in excess of 15 kts, exp turbulence and possible windshear along first 3000´ of Rwy 27.

Later that day I was unable to walk in front of my hangar in the 80mph gusts. The NWS had issued warnings that day that walking would be impossible.

This aint Texas Henning, you can tell buy the 13,000' terrain within 2 miles of the field.
 
CharlieTango said:
Its not just the wind velocity but all of the shear. This 182 exited where there is high terrain on both sides and resulting winds and rotors from 5 directions at once.

The AFD says: Arpt lctd in mountainous terrain with ocnl strong winds and turbulence... With southerly crosswinds in excess of 15 kts, exp turbulence and possible windshear along first 3000´ of Rwy 27.

Later that day I was unable to walk in front of my hangar in the 80mph gusts. The NWS had issued warnings that day that walking would be impossible.

This aint Texas Henning, you can tell buy the 13,000' terrain within 2 miles of the field.
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Oh, I understand about avoiding the the first 3000' due to shear, Big Bear is similar, actually many airports have similar issues from surrounding terrain and even structures.

My question was one of needing wing walkers to safely exit the runway.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
Oh, I understand about avoiding the the first 3000' due to shear, Big Bear is similar, actually many airports have similar issues from surrounding terrain and even structures.

My question was one of needing wing walkers to safely exit the runway.:dunno:
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Big Bear is not similar, not even close. If this guy had avoided the 1st 3,000' he probably could have exited unaided but he stopped in the worst possible place and was ok until he got gusted.

The Q400s often turn back on clear days due to wind shear.

Look at the photos in this thread and tell me that the mile high obstructions are similar to many airports.
 
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