Someone brought the clubs 182 to Mammoth on a windy day.

CharlieTango said:
Big Bear is not similar, not even close. If this guy had avoided the 1st 3,000' he probably could have exited unaided but he stopped in the worst possible place and was ok until he got gusted.

The Q400s often turn back on clear days due to wind shear.

Look at the photos in this thread and tell me that the mile high obstructions are similar to many airports.
Click to expand...

:sigh: never mind.
 
One more perspective, shot from right downwind for niner. Most of the terrain here is over 13,000'. A huge volume of crosswind is funneled down this canyon (Convict Canyon) and the 1,500' tall glacial moraines at the bottom further define the venturi as well as provide sharp edged ridges to create rotors.

In my experience the one California airport that has similar problems is South Lake Tahoe.

gallery_6_7_104600.jpg
 
It was not a landing accident. It happened during taxi.
Sorry to burst the speculation bubble.
 
CharlieTango said:
One more perspective, shot from right downwind for niner. Most of the terrain here is over 13,000'. A huge volume of crosswind is funneled down this canyon (Convict Canyon) and the 1,500' tall glacial moraines at the bottom further define the venturi as well as provide sharp edged ridges to create rotors.



In my experience the one California airport that has similar problems is South Lake Tahoe.



gallery_6_7_104600.jpg
Click to expand...


Man, that's a beautiful picture.
 
teejayevans said:
Would you like to share?
Click to expand...

Sure.

Catalina (KAVX)
Big Bear (L35)
San Francisco Bay Tour (various)
San Diego Bay Tour (various)
Yosemite National Park (KMMH, KMPI, E45, or O22)
Lake Tahoe (KTRK or KTVL)
Mendocino Coast (KLLR)

Those are just my favorites. There are a bunch of places I haven't been to by air that sound real nice (like Mt. Shasta and Death Valley).

I was just flying around between KMPI and Yosemite yesterday. As usual, really nice.
 
Last edited:
Given the known circumstances of this incident I wouldn't discount the possibility that the nose gear was previously damaged or had a cracked mounting. It could have happened during the landing or at some prior time but I doubt that any significant gust on the tail during taxi would cause it to snap off like that if it were undamaged.

Also, not to discount the challenges at Mammoth but I went out to my airport at Byron one day a couple of years ago and there were TWO 172's with busted off nose gears. Both happened on the same day and both were from the same flight school. Bad landings can happen anywhere.
 
Silvaire said:
Given the known circumstances of this incident I wouldn't discount the possibility that the nose gear was previously damaged or had a cracked mounting. It could have happened during the landing or at some prior time but I doubt that any significant gust on the tail during taxi would cause it to snap off like that if it were undamaged.

Also, not to discount the challenges at Mammoth but I went out to my airport at Byron one day a couple of years ago and there were TWO 172's with busted off nose gears. Both happened on the same day and both were from the same flight school. Bad landings can happen anywhere.
Click to expand...


Agreed... That is ALOT more damage then a taxi accident can produce.... Unless they hit a curb or went into a ditch... IMHO..
 
Silvaire said:
Given the known circumstances of this incident I wouldn't discount the possibility that the nose gear was previously damaged or had a cracked mounting. It could have happened during the landing or at some prior time but I doubt that any significant gust on the tail during taxi would cause it to snap off like that if it were undamaged.
Click to expand...

There are skid marks leading to the taxiway sign that the nose went through.

The line guy told me that they parked it with the nosewheel still in place and some wood to stabilize it. Soon it was attached by a wire only and the plane is held level because the tail is tied.

The winds got worse after they parked it, I bet the weight came off of the nose wheel and it fell out.
 
Last edited:
Just occurred to me - why is this plane tied down with ropes? Who uses ropes instead of chains at KMMH?? Are they hoping a rope will break in the next big blow and finish off the airframe?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Just occurred to me - why is this plane tied down with ropes? Who uses ropes instead of chains at KMMH?? Are they hoping a rope will break in the next big blow and finish off the airframe?
Click to expand...

I've been based here since the 1980s, I don't rember there ever being chains here.

I think its because you can cinch the rope tight and compress the suspension a little. With a chain and slack things can get beat up.
 
CharlieTango said:
I've been based here since the 1980s, I don't rember there ever being chains here.

I think its because you can cinch the rope tight and compress the suspension a little. With a chain and slack things can get beat up.
Click to expand...

True, but if the chain is on a cable line you can tighten it up. I'm not a big fan of trusting typical nylon ramp-ropes.
 
>The line guy told me that they parked it with the nosewheel still in place and some wood to stabilize it.

Heh... is that the same line guy that told you, erroneously, that the plane had just landed on 27?

All of the damaged was caused by running over a directional sign.

It's best to use rope in stead of chain because rope has some give. Chains are likely to do more damage in strong winds that might lift a wing, unless they have a shock absorber built into them.
 
Last edited:
Jeff Oslick said:
Just occurred to me - why is this plane tied down with ropes? Who uses ropes instead of chains at KMMH?? Are they hoping a rope will break in the next big blow and finish off the airframe?
Click to expand...

It appears to be 5/8" polypropylene rope, which has a breaking strength over 5,500 lbs.

The 2/0 and 3/0 double loop chain commonly used for aircraft tie downs has a breaking strength just over 1,000 lbs.

Polypropylene rope has some stretch properties, while the chain will impart shocks to the aircraft when sudden gust loads are applied.

The poly rope is the better choice IMO. I wouldn't use nylon for various reasons.
 
Blue Skies said:
>The line guy told me that they parked it with the nosewheel still in place and some wood to stabilize it.

Heh... is that the same line guy that told you, erroneously, that the plane had just landed on 27?

All of the damaged was caused by running over a directional sign.

It's best to use rope in stead of chain because rope has some give. Chains are likely to do more damage in strong winds that might lift a wing, unless they have a shock absorber built into them.
Click to expand...

No one told me that, at first I assumed it landed 27 and I said I would ask how only one tip was bent. When I asked I learned that it was a taxi incident, the result of a gust and he skidded into and took out a taxiway sign.

Are you saying he landed on 09? I did make a mental note that he stopped really short to get off at A1 when I assumed 27. I guess instead he used 6,500'

You don't see many people use 09 with a big south wind, it useually favors 27 at least a little bit.
 
Last edited:
3393RP said:
It appears to be 5/8" polypropylene rope, which has a breaking strength over 5,500 lbs.
Click to expand...

When new. Not it real life after it has been chafed for years against the metal tie down anchor and exposed to high altitude UV rays.

The snow removal part makes sense as the limitation, of course.
 
After looking at the photo again it appears the rope is actually polyester polyolefin. The two color braid is common in this rope type, not so much in polypropylene. In 5/8" size it has over 6,000 lbs breaking strength.

Like everything else associated with aircraft, inspection of tie downs whether they are chain or rope is a good idea. I wouldn't trust either one if it was obviously compromised.
 
3393RP said:
After looking at the photo again it appears the rope is actually polyester polyolefin. The two color braid is common in this rope type, not so much in polypropylene. In 5/8" size it has over 6,000 lbs breaking strength.

Like everything else associated with aircraft, inspection of tie downs whether they are chain or rope is a good idea. I wouldn't trust either one if it was obviously compromised.
Click to expand...


From what I've seen, the issue may not be the strength if the rope but the quality of the knot. I swear some people couldn't tie two half hitches if their life depended on it.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Just occurred to me - why is this plane tied down with ropes? Who uses ropes instead of chains at KMMH?? Are they hoping a rope will break in the next big blow and finish off the airframe?
Click to expand...

Unless the rope is a rotten POS, it is stronger than the spar.
 
Nylon ropes stretch. I use climbing rope (with a figure 8 knot of course). Even if its not better, it looks uber cool.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Nylon ropes stretch. I use climbing rope (with a figure 8 knot of course). Even if its not better, it looks uber cool.
Click to expand...

Climbing rope is typically the stretchiest of them all to absorb some of the impact at the end of a fall. If you want really low stretch and extremely high strength then look at the aramids like Spectra Braid, AmSteel, Plasma Line.... Plasma Line is a pretty purple.:D
 
coloradobluesky said:
The stretchiness absorbs shock.
Click to expand...

Correct, however when tying down a plane in a storm, you want it to be taut and stay taut. For tie down line, you want no stretch so you can build no inertia to cause a shock. When tying down for a storm I typically build a 3-5:1 purchase into the tie down line so I can get it tight. If I have the time, I will soak the lines in water first, then tie it.
 
Henning said:
Correct, however when tying down a plane in a storm, you want it to be taut and stay taut. For tie down line, you want no stretch so you can build no inertia to cause a shock. When tying down for a storm I typically build a 3-5:1 purchase into the tie down line so I can get it tight. If I have the time, I will soak the lines in water first, then tie it.
Click to expand...

It's funny how few people understand rope and knots. One of the best examples is going to the lake and tying up with a group of other boaters. I have a 28' bowrider, it's a pretty big boat weighing in at 6,500 lbs or so. Anchoring it is easy when one knows how, and most boaters don't have any idea how to do it. Even the simplest task, tying off to a cleat, is beyond the skills of most boaters.

I have a medium sized Danforth style anchor, it's aluminum alloy made by Fortress. It works well in the sandy bottom lakes in this area. It's attached to a 10' 5/16" chain and a 150' 1/2" diameter 3 strand nylon anchor rode. The rode has a preformed eye, the chain and tackle is hot dip galvanized steel.

If you ask twenty boaters what the term 'scope' means with regards to anchoring, nineteen of them will respond with a blank look. It's the single most important factor in safely anchoring a boat.

Normal conditions call for a 5:1 scope setting, that is deploying a rode that is five times the water depth under the keel. Anchoring in 25' of water calls for 125 feet of lateral length. If there is wind and rough water, a 7:1 scope is needed.

Sometimes I drop a 20 lb mushroom anchor off the stern to minimize swing if the wind is changing direction intermittently.

It's amusing to see a guy with a 6 lb. Danforth from WalMart tied to 25' of frayed and twisted ski rope trying to make it hold. They drop it straight down till it hits the bottom then tie it off, and every five minutes it pulls out and the process is repeated.

It's not the weight of the anchor which provides the set, it's a combination of proper tackle and sufficient scope working together. Knowing this is important, and it could mean the difference between safely riding out a blow or ending up on the rocks.

People that go boating with us give me a funny look when I pay out over 100' of line, but I'm usually the only guy that doesn't have to reset the anchor at some point during an afternoon.


rode.gif
 
3393RP said:
It's funny how few people understand rope and knots. One of the best examples is going to the lake and tying up with a group of other boaters. I have a 28' bowrider, it's a pretty big boat weighing in at 6,500 lbs or so. Anchoring it is easy when one knows how, and most boaters don't have any idea how to do it. Even the simplest task, tying off to a cleat, is beyond the skills of most boaters.

I have a medium sized Danforth style anchor, it's aluminum alloy made by Fortress. It works well in the sandy bottom lakes in this area. It's attached to a 10' 5/16" chain and a 150' 1/2" diameter 3 strand nylon anchor rode. The rode has a preformed eye, the chain and tackle is hot dip galvanized steel.

If you ask twenty boaters what the term 'scope' means with regards to anchoring, nineteen of them will respond with a blank look. It's the single most important factor in safely anchoring a boat.

Normal conditions call for a 5:1 scope setting, that is deploying a rode that is five times the water depth under the keel. Anchoring in 25' of water calls for 125 feet of lateral length. If there is wind and rough water, a 7:1 scope is needed.

Sometimes I drop a 20 lb mushroom anchor off the stern to minimize swing if the wind is changing direction intermittently.

It's amusing to see a guy with a 6 lb. Danforth from WalMart tied to 25' of frayed and twisted ski rope trying to make it hold. They drop it straight down till it hits the bottom then tie it off, and every five minutes it pulls out and the process is repeated.

It's not the weight of the anchor which provides the set, it's a combination of proper tackle and sufficient scope working together. Knowing this is important, and it could mean the difference between safely riding out a blow or ending up on the rocks.

People that go boating with us give me a funny look when I pay out over 100' of line, but I'm usually the only guy that doesn't have to reset the anchor at some point during an afternoon.


rode.gif
Click to expand...

I understand the anchor thing..

Most boaters could NOT even buy a clue...:no::no:

Now, take that mushroom anchor down to some mud flats in Biscayne Bay and there is a good chance you will be cutting the line at the end of the day as there is no way in hell it is coming back up...:sad:

And... that 100' of line you payed out to your anchor,( which is well bedded) will be cut 6 times by other drunk boaters leaving the party..:(
 
Last edited:
N801BH said:
I understand the anchor thing..

Most boaters could even buy a clue...:no::no:

Now, take that mushroom anchor down to some mud flats in Biscayne Bay and there is a good chance you will be cutting the line at the end of the day as there is no way in hell it is coming back up...:sad:

And... that 100' of line you payed out to your anchor,( which is well bedded) will be cut 6 times by other drunk boaters leaving the party..:(
Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I like running a 'rescue' boat for big float ups. The biggest ones I worked are the 4th of July one at Mandeville Cut on the Stockton river and the Columbus Day Regatta down in Biscayne Bay. I bring dive gear and all the spare anchors and tackle I can get in the boat. I never make less than $1500 a day plus party invites.
 
3393RP said:
It's funny how few people understand rope and knots. One of the best examples is going to the lake and tying up with a group of other boaters. I have a 28' bowrider, it's a pretty big boat weighing in at 6,500 lbs or so. Anchoring it is easy when one knows how, and most boaters don't have any idea how to do it. Even the simplest task, tying off to a cleat, is beyond the skills of most boaters.
Click to expand...

For as little as boaters understand line handling, pilots are even lamer. I went to OSH one year with my buddy in his plane and I tied it down using French Bowlines to the plane and triple Bowlines to the stakes and a triple purchase to a magic knot. He sat by the plane for all the airshows and said people were constantly staring at the tie downs and asking him how he did the knots. He told them "I don't have a clue.":lol:

A lot of times when I'm bored in a marina, especially during the migratory season, I'll walk the dock at night and tie all the cleat hitches properly and square away the tail nicely. It's worth it in the morning watching everybody get up to get moving and look at their lines and figure out how to replicate it.
 
You can't carry enough chain to have scope on a Seaplane....(too heavy)....
 
coloradobluesky said:
You can't carry enough chain to have scope on a Seaplane....(too heavy)....
Click to expand...

Sure you can. The typical seaplane doesn't have a major drag on the anchor. When I did my commercial training and ride in Lake Buccaneer, I brought with me a small Fortress anchor, 15' of stainless 1/4" chain and 100' of 3/8" rode. That rig is still in the plane 20 some years later and works for him very well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top