Soliciting Tips for Safety Pilot s

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
I went up as safety pilot for someone for the first time this weekend. It went OK. I just want to benifet from all of that experience out there, if I can.

Thanks,
 
Keep your eyes open, keep your situational awareness. You are there to handle the see and avoid responsibilities.

I typically note the times when the hood goes on/off so the other guy can keep track of his hood time if he wants to.

It's a good chance to get familiar with the ATC IFR system.
 
Make sure you get a thorough briefing from the PIC on roles and responsibilities before you get in the plane. If you don't get such a briefing, don't get in the plane.
 
Make sure to ask enough questions that you feel you understand the PICs capabilities before you leave the ground. You might even just go on a VFR breakfast run with them before hand, to determine if you actually want to be acting PIC
 
Huh - after the other comments, I didn't think it was all that common to safety-pilot for someone you aren't already familiar with.
 
Matthew said:
Huh - after the other comments, I didn't think it was all that common to safety-pilot for someone you aren't already familiar with.
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I just met the guy. He and I have both been using local CFIs, (that's really easy to schedule too). This weekend, the FBO put us in touch, they didn't have the staff available.

Next weekend he'll be my safety.
 
Ron Levy said:
Make sure you get a thorough briefing from the PIC on roles and responsibilities before you get in the plane. If you don't get such a briefing, don't get in the plane.
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How might that go?

"Okay, I'm gonna do some hood work. Umm, when I got the hood on you need to look for traffic. In fact, let's both always look for traffic unless under the hood. Questions?"
 
Captain said:
How might that go?

"Okay, I'm gonna do some hood work. Umm, when I got the hood on you need to look for traffic. In fact, let's both always look for traffic unless under the hood. Questions?"
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Doesn't even scratch the surface, and that cavalier attitude towards the issue is exactly what causes the sorts of problems that folks have written up here on PoA when doing this. You should first decide who will be the legal PIC -- the person with the final authority responsible for the safety of the flight (and any legal issues which might arise, like a flight violation). You should talk about every cockpit duty, and who will perform it, including lookout, radio comm, control manipulation in various circumstances, transfer of control, operation of nav equipment, emergency procedures, etc. "Anything less is uncivilized."
 
Captain said:
How might that go?

"Okay, I'm gonna do some hood work. Umm, when I got the hood on you need to look for traffic. In fact, let's both always look for traffic unless under the hood. Questions?"
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You're making the mistaken assumption that the only duty of a safety pilot is to look for traffic.

If you are going to log PIC, then you need to be the PIC. That means two things: (1) you and the flying pilot (FP) have agreed that you are in charge and (2) you have taken on all of the PIC duties and responsibilities. So, for example, did you get that weather briefing, or is it a responsibility you specifically assigned to the FP?

If you are not going to log PIC, you are effectively SIC on the flight (whether you choose to call it that or not). If you think that absolves you from responsibility for, say, that TFR bust, think again. The FP/PIC may be ultimately responsible, but as a reqquired flight crewmember so are you. So I'll ask again, did the PIC check for TFRs or is that a responsibility he assigned to you?

Safety pilots aside, in any flight with two pilots, unless one is instructed by the PIC to sit there, shut up, don't touch anything and simply be a passenger (not an easy role for a pilot to accept) it's always a good idea for the two to discuss who will do what, if for no reason other than that you both know who is flying the airplane at any given time. Its a mental task not limited by who is at the controls. One of the Asiana crash speculations is that there were multiple in various authority positions, all of whom missed the warning signs of being too low and slow on approach. Did the all miss them or did eash simply assume it was something another pilot was taking care of, with the result that nobody was flying the airplane? Maybe?

(Interesting - two of my signature block items in one thread)
 
I find the silly logging tricks that part 61 allows to be somewhat tiresome, so let's assume for this post that the other pilot is PIC, and you are safety pilot.

Your main duty is to monitor the position and attitude of the aircraft so you can warn the pilot if the airplane starts to get away from him, or if he is wandering off somewhere where he doesn't really want to go.

After making sure the airplane is always under control, then watch for traffic.

Unless the pilot briefs you otherwise, do not 'help' by pushing buttons or otherwise fooling with the avionics. The airplane is still being flown 'single pilot'.

I was once on a practice ILS downwind when a safety pilot friend thought that he could help me out by fooling with the audio panel. His 'help' shut off the audio, and I got a chewing out from the controller because I was NORDO for several minutes until I realized what had happened.

Don't be that guy.
 
Is the safety pilot a "required crew member"?
 
DrMack said:
Is the safety pilot a "required crew member"?
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Yes, as long as the PF is under the hood, and otherwise, no. (I assume that the safety pilot is ONLY a safety pilot, i.e. that the PF is acting PIC.)
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't even scratch the surface, and that cavalier attitude towards the issue is exactly what causes the sorts of problems that folks have written up here on PoA when doing this. You should first decide who will be the legal PIC -- the person with the final authority responsible for the safety of the flight (and any legal issues which might arise, like a flight violation). You should talk about every cockpit duty, and who will perform it, including lookout, radio comm, control manipulation in various circumstances, transfer of control, operation of nav equipment, emergency procedures, etc. "Anything less is uncivilized."
Click to expand...

If you brief for at least two days and review all applicable Chief Counsel letters, you can cancel the flight out of boredom.
 
In addition to deciding who will be PIC and who will handle what responsibilities, I like to know what the pilot intends to do. Maneuvers? Approaches? Other?
 
denverpilot said:
If you brief for at least two days and review all applicable Chief Counsel letters, you can cancel the flight out of boredom.
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If it takes that long for you to brief a safety pilot on roles and responsibilities, then you probably should cancel the flight for lack of multi-pilot crew competence on your part or untrainability on the safety pilot's part.
 
My briefing was "write down the time I go under and out from the hood, look for traffic and obstacles, take the controls when I hood/unhood after briefed positive transfer, tell me when I'm over the class D reporting point, and give me rough vectors back home." It helps that my safety pilot was an instrument rated CFI student with a good deal of experience.
 
JimNtexas said:
I find the silly logging tricks that part 61 allows to be somewhat tiresome, so let's assume for this post that the other pilot is PIC, and you are safety
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i didn't notice. Did someone mention logging in this thread?
 
Yes, post #4 from airhead brought in the assumption of PIC in safety pilot duties.
 
as usual, a legitimate question of "what do i need to do?" turns quickly to "when can I log?" We'd all be better off if we stopped worrying about writing numbers in a little book.
 
nosehair said:
Yes, post #4 from airhead brought in the assumption of PIC in safety pilot duties.
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I didn't read it that way. I saw the question as being about duty and responsibility, not how it's logged once safely back on the ground.

Yes, in the safety pilot situation, that decision has some logging ramifications. But so does the command responsibility decision in any two-pilot-required operation.
 
JHW said:
as usual, a legitimate question of "what do i need to do?" turns quickly to "when can I log?" We'd all be better off if we stopped worrying about writing numbers in a little book.
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I really didn't see any discussion of "when can I log" until nosehair and you brought it up to say that a consideration that was not being discussed shouldn't be discussed.
 
Logging is only an issue if you complete the flight safely, and that's the area about which I am concerned. Too many tales of confusion and discord in the cockpit where inadequate preflight briefings (or no preflight briefings) have occurred. Let's fix that, and then worry about how to log it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Logging is only an issue if you complete the flight safely, and that's the area about which I am concerned. Too many tales of confusion and discord in the cockpit where inadequate preflight briefings (or no preflight briefings) have occurred. Let's fix that, and then worry about how to log it.
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I once flew nearly an hour in the back seat of a starduster thinking the guy in front was doing a sloppy job of flying. And vice versa.
 
JHW said:
I once flew nearly an hour in the back seat of a starduster thinking the guy in front was doing a sloppy job of flying. And vice versa.
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:rofl: Now you know why I included transfer of control as an item to brief before going up with a safety pilot. A bit like that old maintenance write-up joke:

Write-up: Autoland very rough.
Sign-off: Autoland not installed.
 
Cap'n Ron:
Thank you for the post of items to cover. Soon I hope to need a SP during my IR and knowing its more than, here's where we are flying you watch out for planes is very informative and helpful to a newbie like me.

I am making a "safety pilot" checklist of items to cover with said SP.

As always, this board is so helpful, once you get past who can log the time and when. :rofl::rofl:

Lynn
 
Ron Levy said:
Make sure you get a thorough briefing from the PIC on roles and responsibilities before you get in the plane. If you don't get such a briefing, don't get in the plane.
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Ditto. As John King would say, any time you have more than one pilot on board it behooves you to figure out what the roles are going to be.

Actually, I flew with Capn Ron once. Just after I joined the red board I was repaying a favor for a friend to drop him off at HGR to pick up his Grumman and Ron was looking for a ride from LNS where he was dropping his Grumman off. Sure why not make a nice day of a round robin flight.

CapnRon jumped in the right seat and said he could be:
1. A flight instructor.
2. A copilot
3. or a passenger

but we were going to determine what it was at the outset and that if I was to do something that made him fear for his life he would act regardless of which of the above.

I chose #2 and Ron dutifully preloaded the radios with the ATC freqs all the way down to SBY as he has them and the changeover points committed to memory.

As for safety pilots, your #1 job is to be the eyes that allow the pilot to legally operate in visual conditions without looking. That means watching for traffic and (if VFR) for IMC conditions. No other duities should interfere with these prime ones. Of course, fearing for my life (heading for the side of a mountain) or ticket (about to bust the SFRA or something) are a very high second on the list.

Frankly, if a pilot needs more than that out of a safety pilot (like to keep the dirty side down), then he really needs an INSTRUCTOR rather than just a safety pilot on the right side.
 
nosehair said:
Yes, post #4 from airhead brought in the assumption of PIC in safety pilot duties.
Click to expand...

Its an option, also in the case of bent/burned metal it may be hard for an SP to deny that they were acting PIC if the courts get involved. Even harder after the fact when everyone who's ever touched the airframe gets sued by the people injured on the ground.
 
As penguin says, the regulatory pilot roles will mean little in the event of a lawsuit. They will go after whoever has the money to pay a judgment. The FAA on the other hand, bases their enforcement actions on whoever they can harm the most with their action.
 
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