So many choices......So little money

[Aztec Driver]

So it is gettng close to time to do something about the inoperative autopilot in the Twinkie. It has an old Altimatic II system, which everyone is telling me is expensive to repair, hard to get parts for, nevr worked well anyway, etc.......

It pretty much holds a lateral course, so long as you don't make it intercept a course more than 10 degrees off its current heading, or make it follow a heading more than 10 degrees away from the current heading. If you do, it IMMEDIATELY rolls into a runaway death spiral. The pitch mode pretty much just dives to the ground.

So the options so far are:

1. Try to repair it by spending likely a few thousand dollars and then have the possibility of finding out it can't be repaired.
2. Get a very nice Century 2000 AP that comes with an HSI and AI for around 24K
3. Get an STEC 55 unit that comes with a new Turn and bank, but has less functionality.
4. There seem to be several other options that combine several changes to the panel which include, radios, GNS430, Electronic AI and HSI, etc...
5. Let the darn thing the way it is until I can afford to sell it and buy something else.

So, how do I spend my money?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So it is gettng close to time to do something about the inoperative autopilot in the Twinkie. It has an old Altimatic II system, which everyone is telling me is expensive to repair, hard to get parts for, nevr worked well anyway, etc.......

I think that's pretty much right on. Having trouble getting a trim servo for one right now. It's down to only working for heading mode too.

2. Get a very nice Century 2000 AP that comes with an HSI and AI for around 24K

Not too familiar with those, but I'd rather not be stuck with their HSI/AI simply because I'd want to put in the Aspen Avionics system after a while.

3. Get an STEC 55 unit that comes with a new Turn and bank, but has less functionality.

We have an S-TEC 50 in the 182, and I've gotta give it two thumbs up.

It was installed ~6-7 years ago, upgraded with the GPSS module ($1500) about two years ago, and has never had any problems. Combined with the 430W, it not only flies your route with precision, it also will fly procedure turns and holds. If you save enough on the S-TEC (compared with the Century 2000) to add a 430W to the mix, I'd say that's your winning combo. If/when you do decide to sell the plane, you may not get your entire investment back, but your plane will sell a heckuva lot quicker that way.

4. There seem to be several other options that combine several changes to the panel which include, radios, GNS430, Electronic AI and HSI, etc...

If you haven't seen it already, check out http://www.aspenavionics.com/ Their system is modular, easily upgradable, and even easily removable and transferable to your next plane should you so choose. If it lives up to the hype, it'll be a real winner. It also costs (for one unit, with E-AI and E-HSI) less than the Sandel.

5. Let the darn thing the way it is until I can afford to sell it and buy something else.

What would you buy?

So, how do I spend my money?

Well, do all the Garmin/STEC/Aspen upgrades. If you hate them, I'll take the plane off your hands free of charge.

 

[Aztec Driver]

If you haven't seen it already, check out http://www.aspenavionics.com/ Their system is modular, easily upgradable, and even easily removable and transferable to your next plane should you so choose. If it lives up to the hype, it'll be a real winner. It also costs (for one unit, with E-AI and E-HSI) less than the Sandel.

Funny you should mention that. That is one of the "many panel options" that I was referring to. Take out the existing KLN94, add the STEC, add the Aspen avionics, and a GNS430W, along with another nav/com. Only 10-12K more than what I was going to spend, what a bargain!

 

[Henning]

So it is gettng close to time to do something about the inoperative autopilot in the Twinkie. It has an old Altimatic II system, which everyone is telling me is expensive to repair, hard to get parts for, nevr worked well anyway, etc.......

It pretty much holds a lateral course, so long as you don't make it intercept a course more than 10 degrees off its current heading, or make it follow a heading more than 10 degrees away from the current heading. If you do, it IMMEDIATELY rolls into a runaway death spiral. The pitch mode pretty much just dives to the ground.

So the options so far are:

1. Try to repair it by spending likely a few thousand dollars and then have the possibility of finding out it can't be repaired.
2. Get a very nice Century 2000 AP that comes with an HSI and AI for around 24K
3. Get an STEC 55 unit that comes with a new Turn and bank, but has less functionality.
4. There seem to be several other options that combine several changes to the panel which include, radios, GNS430, Electronic AI and HSI, etc...
5. Let the darn thing the way it is until I can afford to sell it and buy something else.

So, how do I spend my money?

Well, if it was me, I'd want to come out of it with an HSI regardless of the A/P if any. At this point, I'd also be looking seriously at a LPV capable WAAS GPS, the Twinkie is a good and capable plane, and this is the approach that opens up the country really. I just don't see ILS approaches being installed any more except at major airports, and I see these popping up more and more, and they are nice. I would probably what kind of deal I could get on one of the remaining GNS 480s and take my chances on the future, but that's me. As little as I like Century APs, if that set up had a flight director in the AI, it would really be worth considering, but it would have to have some form of GPSS coupling to take full advantage. So, yeah, lots of options to look at....

Question though, what would you consider replacing it with? Remember, if you buy high end avionics, you can swap them into the new plane.

 

[gprellwitz]

I just don't see ILS approaches being installed any more except at major airports, and I see these popping up more and more, and they are nice.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that WAAS approaches are nice, but KLOT here in Romeoville is in the process of installing a couple of ILSes, so watch over here so you will see ILS approaches being installed!

 

[SCCutler]

I don't know why you are limiting your choices to the Century 2000 and the S-Tec 55X, unless you feel a compelling need for the fully-coupled approach. You can get most of the way there with an S-Tec 50 (or 30), and have an autopilot which does not require a heading input to function, and does not rely upon vacuum instruments (like AI).

I have flown behind the 2000, by the way, and it is a fine autopilot when properly rigged. But I like the S-Tec 30 I have now just fine.

 

[bbchien]

Depends on how long you are going to keep the twinkie. You can still get the servo overhauled, the bearings are getting harder to get, though. If you do it now, you might be able to run it 10 years....but I too think STEC is a better bet.

 

[Henning]

I don't know why you are limiting your choices to the Century 2000 and the S-Tec 55X, unless you feel a compelling need for the fully-coupled approach. You can get most of the way there with an S-Tec 50 (or 30), and have an autopilot which does not require a heading input to function, and does not rely upon vacuum instruments (like AI).

I have flown behind the 2000, by the way, and it is a fine autopilot when properly rigged. But I like the S-Tec 30 I have now just fine.

Thing is, if you're gonna spend real money, might as well get all the bells and whistles like a fully coupled approach.

 

[PT13Pilot]

The S-Tec route is hard to beat, they make excellent autopilots. One of my customers had a new Chelton 2 axis A/P and WAAS 430 installed in his 182 last year. 4 trips to Autopilot Central, and all of the autopilot being replaced, it still didn't work. They finally gave him his money, removed the Chelton, went with an S-Tec, and hasn't looked back. He flies a lot and so far, the S-Tec has performed well. I've had very few complaints with any S-Tec from customers.

 

[SCCutler]

Thing is, if you're gonna spend real money, might as well get all the bells and whistles like a fully coupled approach.

Generally agreed, but while you gain fully-coupled apps with the 60-2 and the 55X, neither of those has a pure stabilization mode- a wing-leveler.

The 50 and 30 will both give you a level wing without regard to a heading source or attitude indication. I like that. I like redundant.

If I were buying now, I'd probably go for the 50, as it can still couple approaches (lateral), such that you need only handle the glideslope. The 30 will not intercept, but (of course) will still fly the LOC once intercepted in high-sens coupled mode.

 

[AztecWannabe]

I don't understand the need for a pure stabilization mode. I've had that in the Mooney, the wing leveler, and found it virtually useless. Without being able to hold altitude or track a heading or waypoint, how much workload have you actually reduced?

The Aztec has an Stec-55 and all I can say is "Wow." To me, it's the cadillac of autopilots. If I ever upgrade the GPS to a WAAS LPV unit, I'll certainly throw in the GPS Steer unit to couple to the Stec-55. That seems to be the "Mac Daddy" of setups.

 

[tonycondon]

the idea is that the airplanes is stable enough to trim out for a rough altitude hold.

 

[AztecWannabe]

I still don't get it. Are you talking about a holding pattern done in turbulence? Or, just trying to maintain altitude in very turbulent air. Either way, I don't like an autopilot steering (leveling) while I'm controlling altitude with the yolk. You feel it turning against you and also if you accidentally exert enough force on the yolk, it should kick off the autopilot anyhow.

 

[Aztec Driver]

So the Aspen Avionics have been out for a little while now. Anyone have any experience with them? This is the route I am planning at this point.

Installing an Aspen avionics EFD1000 pro
Installing an STEC 30 w/alt hold
Installing a KX165
Relocating the panel to a stantard panel layout

all for the bargain basement price of 30K

Unfortunately, the value of the aircraft won't appreciably raise because of it. If only I could get the interior and the paint done as well. That might add to its value. Anyone want to sign me up for "pimp my ride"?


Bryon

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you're getting a heck of a deal there. Consider that a B/K HSI system was typically 12K new, what you get with the Aspen (Solid state AI, HSI/RMI/Moving Map with internal battery backup) is incredible for the price.

 

[Lance F]

Just one more note based on personal experience. I am very happy with the STEC-50 in my Mooney.

 

[SCCutler]

Just one more note based on personal experience. I am very happy with the STEC-50 in my Mooney.

I have a 30, and love it, but if I were choosing , would also opt for the 50, if for no other reason than it has an approach mode, which the 30 lacks; it will capture a Localizer, while the 30 can track one once established, but cannot capture it (note, the glide slope's on you with either unit).

I believe the price difference between 30 and 50 is minimal.

 

[wabower]

So if ILS approaches are going to be an even lower minority, why is an HSI high on your list? An A/P will track the glideslope without one, a GPS always knows where to go and they are still expensive. I'm doing the 180 panel now, have decided it's not worth doing. What am I missing?

Well, if it was me, I'd want to come out of it with an HSI regardless of the A/P if any. At this point, I'd also be looking seriously at a LPV capable WAAS GPS, the Twinkie is a good and capable plane, and this is the approach that opens up the country really. I just don't see ILS approaches being installed any more except at major airports, and I see these popping up more and more, and they are nice. I would probably what kind of deal I could get on one of the remaining GNS 480s and take my chances on the future, but that's me. As little as I like Century APs, if that set up had a flight director in the AI, it would really be worth considering, but it would have to have some form of GPSS coupling to take full advantage. So, yeah, lots of options to look at....

Question though, what would you consider replacing it with? Remember, if you buy high end avionics, you can swap them into the new plane.

 

[wabower]

Generally agreed, but while you gain fully-coupled apps with the 60-2 and the 55X, neither of those has a pure stabilization mode- a wing-leveler.

The 50 and 30 will both give you a level wing without regard to a heading source or attitude indication. I like that. I like redundant.

If I were buying now, I'd probably go for the 50, as it can still couple approaches (lateral), such that you need only handle the glideslope. The 30 will not intercept, but (of course) will still fly the LOC once intercepted in high-sens coupled mode.

I think the primary difference is whether or not your panel space is limited. Mine is, so the 30 is the ticket.

 

[wabower]

Hard quote on the 30K? Including everything?

So the Aspen Avionics have been out for a little while now. Anyone have any experience with them? This is the route I am planning at this point.

Installing an Aspen avionics EFD1000 pro
Installing an STEC 30 w/alt hold
Installing a KX165
Relocating the panel to a stantard panel layout

all for the bargain basement price of 30K

Unfortunately, the value of the aircraft won't appreciably raise because of it. If only I could get the interior and the paint done as well. That might add to its value. Anyone want to sign me up for "pimp my ride"?


Bryon

 

[Henning]

So if ILS approaches are going to be an even lower minority, why is an HSI high on your list? An A/P will track the glideslope without one, a GPS always knows where to go and they are still expensive. I'm doing the 180 panel now, have decided it's not worth doing. What am I missing?

HSI represents all the GPS approaches as well as VOR/LOC/ILS approaches, and it represents all the approaches in the same format. I guess an A/P helps out, but I rarely ever had functioning ones, and the HSI just really reduced my mental workload for situational awareness in IMC and simplified proceedures. At this point I'd be looking for a deal on a 3308 or 3500 Sandel unit.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

At this point I'd be looking for a deal on a 3308 or 3500 Sandel unit.

I wouldn't. You can get an entire PFD from Aspen for a couple grand less, and I think the install cost is lower too.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Hard quote on the 30K? Including everything?

It was 28K including everything, although the price may have gone up a bit since then.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I wouldn't. You can get an entire PFD from Aspen for a couple grand less, and I think the install cost is lower too.

That is true, but I am concerned about the reliability issue. The functionality is much better than just an HSI, but which will give less problems in the long run?

 

[AdamZ]

I suppose it will all come down to what you can afford in the long run

 

[SCCutler]

That is true, but I am concerned about the reliability issue. The functionality is much better than just an HSI, but which will give less problems in the long run?

Good question.

If engineering is robust, the Aspen should be sound.

 

[wabower]

I suppose it will all come down to what you can afford in the long run

In the long run, we're all dead. Go for it.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Good question.

If engineering is robust, the Aspen should be sound.

Well, that's one of those obvious statements, don't you think?

 

[TMetzinger]

That is true, but I am concerned about the reliability issue. The functionality is much better than just an HSI, but which will give less problems in the long run?

I think it will... the reports so far are very good, and the lack of moving parts is a big plus for reliability.

 

[SCCutler]

Well, that's one of those obvious statements, don't you think?

Sorry, I was in a hurry and you are right, I added nothing to the mix with that.

My point was, though, that a well-engineered solid-state device, like the Aspen, will (on average) last longer than an equivalently well-engineered device like an HSI, simply because of the inevitability of mechanical wear and, ultimately, failure.

 

[Henning]

I wouldn't. You can get an entire PFD from Aspen for a couple grand less, and I think the install cost is lower too.

You can pick up a used 3308 for half the price of an Aspen, and personally, I'm not sold on the Aspen. Thing runs way too hot and it has too much info in too small of a space. That and I'm hearing infant mortality reports on them. (and the G-600 now as well Av Shilo lost one with less than 50hrs on it, luckily it failed on the ground.) Nah, after having looked at the Aspen unit, they have not made me a fan. Nothing electronic like that within its normal operating parameters should burn my hand when I touch it. That's not conducive to a long low cost life.

 

[Henning]

Sorry, I was in a hurry and you are right, I added nothing to the mix with that.

My point was, though, that a well-engineered solid-state device, like the Aspen, will (on average) last longer than an equivalently well-engineered device like an HSI, simply because of the inevitability of mechanical wear and, ultimately, failure.

Yeah, it's the "well engineered" part I'm having trouble with on the Aspen.

 

[SCCutler]

There you go, let's see how it all shakes out. Hopefully, my KCS55 hangs in there long enough to tell whether the Aspen is a playa', or a ... not-playa'.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That is true, but I am concerned about the reliability issue. The functionality is much better than just an HSI, but which will give less problems in the long run?

My vote would be on the one that doesn't depend on a single freakin' light bulb. (The Sandel is backlit by one.)

Yes. Light bulb. LIGHT BULB. Ridiculous, IMHO.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That and I'm hearing infant mortality reports on them. (and the G-600 now as well Av Shilo lost one with less than 50hrs on it, luckily it failed on the ground.)

What problems have you heard of on the G600? Av didn't lose that too now, did he?

Nah, after having looked at the Aspen unit, they have not made me a fan. Nothing electronic like that within its normal operating parameters should burn my hand when I touch it. That's not conducive to a long low cost life.

Well, my laptop does... But, you are correct. Heat kills. I would guess that there will be an SB or something sooner or later to check airflow on the heat sink (basically, right behind where the DG used to be) after installation, and maybe they'll add a fan.

As far as installation, does the Sandel require a remotely mounted magnetometer/flux gate?

 

[CT Arrow]

In my Arrow, I fly w/ a Sandel 3308, 530W and 55X. A winning combo that will fly just about anything. I have yet to change the long life bulb (200+ hours) in the Sandel and have a spare if I need to.

The 3308 was bought used and installed for around 8K w/ everything! How could I say no?

 

[gismo]

My vote would be on the one that doesn't depend on a single freakin' light bulb. (The Sandel is backlit by one.)

Yes. Light bulb. LIGHT BULB. Ridiculous, IMHO.

At least with the 3500 they used a lamp that theoretically cannot "burn out", baring physical damage HIDs just fade away. And with any transmissive LCD like Aspen (and virtually all other new electronic flight instrumentation) uses there's a single light source (LED or CFL and associated driver electronics) that can fail leaving the whole display dark. This is one example of the main disappointing difference between electronic and
mechanical flight instrumentation's reliability. The electronics are for the most part immune to wear but they typically have orders of magnitude more potential single point failure modes. When you couple that with the near impossible chance of detecting electronic failures before they manifest themselves catestrophically vs the much greater likelihood that a mechanical failure will be preceeded by detectable symptoms of a more benign nature it becomes hard to tell if the new wave of electronic instrumentation will really be a benefit from a reliability perspective.

 

[Henning]

What problems have you heard of on the G600? Av didn't lose that too now, did he?

When he was getting ready to fly down last week it --it the kitty and had to be replaced....

 

[SCCutler]

When he was getting ready to fly down last week it --it the kitty and had to be replaced....

Man, you cannot possibly say Av has bad luck (have you seen the picture of his wife?), but his toys sure seem to break a lot!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In my Arrow, I fly w/ a Sandel 3308, 530W and 55X. A winning combo that will fly just about anything. I have yet to change the long life bulb (200+ hours) in the Sandel and have a spare if I need to.

Nice! I'm a big fan of the Garmin + S-TEC, the EHSI is icing on the cake.

How difficult is it to replace the bulb?

The 3308 was bought used and installed for around 8K w/ everything! How could I say no?

Well, you start by putting your tongue on the top of your mouth, and...