So I killed myself the other night....

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Simulated kill that is. Flying IFR on PilotEdge, I think it was the first time I've died on a network. Full disclosure, I'm a private pilot working on my IR. I use PilotEdge to sharpen learned skills and challenge myself with scenarios that aren't usually available in my normal flying.

Flying in SoCal. Yucca Valley to LAX in a C210. Wanted to do this because I would pick up a clearance at an uncontrolled field going over 12,000 ft mountains meaning I'd need to fly a hold to gain altitude then onto crazy airspace.

Route was V264, Paradise VOR PDZ, PDZ270R, V363, LAX24R Localizer.

The last bit threw me as it seemed he had my approach clearance in the route. I'd never heard that before in a route clearance. Read back was good and I was on my way. My flying was textbook as I passed over PDZ. Everything going perfectly. While traveling north on V363 I kicked on my AP to start briefing the approach. I saw the localizer CDI come alive but the controller had not explicitly cleared me onto the LAX 24R LOC. So I kept flying thru as the localizer fully deflected. Then I was flying thru the Pomona VOR. Just north of the VOR are some more big mountains (MEA is 10500) and I was at 4000. This was my first uh-oh. Mental fog develops.

The controller came on and chided that I was north of course and vectored me back to the localizer before I went CFIT. I intercepted the localizer and began my descent. Controller came on again asked what I was doing. I said flying the LOC 24R approach to LAX. He said that I wasn't cleared for the approach and that's when it occurred to me that the LOC24R in my clearance was part of the route, not an approach clearance, duh. Mental fog deepens.

At this point, the marine layer had come in and a visual approach was not an option. He asked if I'd like to be vectored back to sequence an ILS. I said yes. Mental fog goes to pea soup. At that point, I was configured for landing. 1,000agl, 90kts, 10° flaps, gear down. The controller told me to climb and maintain 5000. I turned the KAP140 to 5,000 feet and began my climb while my engine was about 16" MP 2500 RPM. (oops) I looked down briefly at my chart and my stall horn went off.

I knew immediately what had happened and disconnected the AP and put in full power. But at that point, I was already in a spin. I pulled back the throttle as I emerged from the cloud deck, stopped the spin but couldn't pull up in time.

My VSI showed a 2,000+ FPM descent and I fixated on that instrument as I plunged trying to make sense of what was happening. The whole thing probably took less than 10 seconds.

I know what mistakes I made but man, it's scary to see how quickly they can add up to be fatal. I laid awake in bed that night thinking about the accident chain like it was a Peter Garrison Aftermath article. I broke down each piece of that flight. Why didn't I ask for clarification on the route? How could I ever put a climb into the AP without adding power? Why, in a stall in IMC was I fixating on the VSI?

This is why I'm thankful I have a good sim set-up and that there's a service like PilotEdge (thanks @coma24 ). I'm glad to be able to have my own Aftermath and walk away from it.
 
I've found xplane to be awesome for learning stuff on the ground instead of trying to figure it out in the air. I'll have to check out this pilot edge thing. Sounds cool.
 
All the sims are fun. And PE was great in refining some instrument stuff!
 
Don't kill yourself over it. (see what I did there? LOL)
It is called training for a reason. To train and learn from mistakes before you are released into the world on your own.

FWIW, I have never seen a localizer as part of a clearance, that is new to me and interesting. When on V363, you are dozens of miles away from the LOC, I am surprised they can use it for navigation that far out (can't readily recall the distance limitation on a LOC signal, it's not 22nm, is it?).
I would have expected to see V210 in the route instead of the LOC. But then again, it is California, the land of the crazy and one of the most congested airspaces. LOL
 
Don't kill yourself over it. (see what I did there? LOL)
It is called training for a reason. To train and learn from mistakes before you are released into the world on your own.

FWIW, I have never seen a localizer as part of a clearance, that is new to me and interesting. When on V363, you are dozens of miles away from the LOC, I am surprised they can use it for navigation that far out (can't readily recall the distance limitation on a LOC signal, it's not 22nm, is it?).
I would have expected to see V210 in the route instead of the LOC. But then again, it is California, the land of the crazy and one of the most congested airspaces. LOL

I know that localizers can be used to define an intersection on an airway but yeah, that really threw me.
 
Never had a loc as part of anything but an approach clearance ether.


Good job on usage of the sim though, this is exactly where those things shine.
 
The controller probably meant to clear you to the IAF. I don't think there's anyway to clear you to the localizer without giving you a heading to intercept or clear you to a fix.
 
I know that localizers can be used to define an intersection on an airway but yeah, that really threw me.

I have never seen that either....

I would be very interested in what a controller would say if that is a real valid clearance.

If I received that clearance I probably would have done the same thing. Now after hearing your story I will think twice if I ever get it!

Thanks for the write up...always good to learn from others.
 
Good learning experience. I just started using pilot edge too. I am finishing my instrument rating and find it to be helpful. Some of the controllers are great, others not so much. They don't always use the same phrases as real atc. Either way, good practice for everyone.
 
I gave pilotedge a shot 2 or 3 times, but never bought it because it would take 15-20 minutes for them to get back to me on clearance/taxi requests. The few times it worked I really liked it, but they were just too understaffed to make it worth my money.
 
Great write-up! What you described is one of the reasons why I prefer to hand fly rather than use the autopilot (I'm in the minority), even for 3+ hr legs. If were you handflying, you would've notice how much back pressure it was taking to maintain the desired pitch attitude. That said, even with AP engaged, a normal scan would've caught the degrading speed and poor climb, so that's probably the bigger issue to work on.

Regarding routes with localizers, they're rare, but they absolutely do exist. Behold, the ONTN3 TEC route for ONT-HHR: PDZ PDZ270R HHR RY25 LOC
And here's the ONTN4 TEC route for ONT-LAX: PDZ PDZ270R LAX RWY 24R LOC

The correct procedure would be to intercept the localizer from the PDZ R-270. It's the same as having a radial in a clearance. It's purely for lateral guidance, not vertical. You can't descend until you receive an actual approach clearance.

Somedudeintn, sorry to hear that. There are busier times and there are quieter times. When it's quiet, people complain there isn't traffic and when it's busy, people don't like to wait. By definition, we're almost always either overstaffed or understaffed. Traffic levels vary considerably throughout the day and through the week, I'd be happy to extend you another trial at no charge so you can give it more than 2-3 tries.
 
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I gave pilotedge a shot 2 or 3 times, but never bought it because it would take 15-20 minutes for them to get back to me on clearance/taxi requests. The few times it worked I really liked it, but they were just too understaffed to make it worth my money.

I've never had a wait time that long. There are times when you have have trouble getting a word in to get your clearance and then a few minute wait while your clearance is on request. This gives you time to set up and go thru checklists (I like to do it all by the book). I basically think of it as being at a busy airport except I'm not paying for the big metal spinny thing out front.
 
Great write-up! What you described is one of the reasons why I prefer to hand fly rather than use the autopilot (I'm in the minority), even for 3+ hr legs. If were you handflying, you would've notice how much back pressure it was taking to maintain the desired pitch attitude. That said, even with AP engaged, a normal scan would've caught the degrading speed and poor climb, so that's probably the bigger issue to work on.

Regarding routes with localizers, they're rare, but they absolutely do exist. Behold, the ONTN3 TEC route for ONT-HHR: PDZ PDZ270R HHR RY25 LOC
And here's the ONTN4 TEC route for ONT-LAX: PDZ PDZ270R LAX RWY 24R LOC

The correct procedure would be to intercept the localizer from the PDZ R-270. It's the same as having a radial in a clearance. It's purely for lateral guidance, not vertical. You can't descend until you receive an actual approach clearance.

Somedudeintn, sorry to hear that. There are busier times and there are quieter times. When it's quite, people complain there isn't traffic and when it's busy, people don't like to wait. By definition, we're almost always either overstaffed or understaffed. Traffic levels vary considerably throughout the day and through the week, I'd be happy to extend you another trial at no charge so you can give it more than 2-3 tries.

I think real-world I hand-fly more. In the sim my trim is twitchy as hell especially in the 210, my 172 is rock solid once trimmed tho. That said, a good scan would have solved a lot but I was in total brain lock at that moment.

As with all APs you trust but verify. I trusted but I did not verify before I moved onto looking at my chart. 10 seconds later, I was dead. That's the freaky part. It happened so fast. So, I'm hoping this is an error I won't make again in the sim or in the RW.

One weird thing is there is no record of the flight in PEAware. Is that because I didn't complete the flight and the flight plan got kicked out of the system?
 
One weird thing is there is no record of the flight in PEAware. Is that because I didn't complete the flight and the flight plan got kicked out of the system?
incomplete flights are removed from peaware, yes.

This is one reason I always flew PE with Garmin Pilot Android and a logging app (GPSLogger) recording the flight trace for later review.
I do recommend PE highly for all IR students, and even seasoned IFR pilots looking to expand their horizons as I did. In my case I flew a 737-800 on PE and enjoyed the extra challenge of the flight levels, STARs, "descend via", planning for altitude and speed restrictions, etc.
Even flying in California, which is outside my normal roaming range was a bonus. I feel more professional now flying my SE piston Cessna after that training, despite having flown in the system for decades before that.
 
coming in to lax on he the seavu2 you will get "descend via the seavu2 cleared for the ILS25L lax." and you will get that at fl200 or so. the final fix on the seavu2 is seavu which is a IAF for the ILS. works great set 1900 in the box push managed decent and watch it fly the whole thing.

bob
 
Bob, I was about to bring that up as an example of an approach where the localizer is used from a pretty massive distance.
 
VATsim is a decent free option. Seems to be staffed pretty regularly during popular times of the day. If you're a night owl then you're probably better served 'flying' in other countries.
 
Why the hell are private pilot instrument students training on an LAX localizer in IMC?

That is not something you will EVER do in real life in a light single.

Want something useful as training? Fly into KHHR. And hope the traffic volume is right because it's going to change how you get vectored.
 
Why the hell are private pilot instrument students training on an LAX localizer in IMC?

That is not something you will EVER do in real life in a light single.

Want something useful as training? Fly into KHHR. And hope the traffic volume is right because it's going to change how you get vectored.

Because on Pilot Edge they usually have a few airports they are working and everyone flies to and from those to give the illusion of normal traffic flows. So if LAX was the airport everyone was flying to that night, that's why he'd of been going there.
 
Why the hell are private pilot instrument students training on an LAX localizer in IMC?
PE is limited to the Republic of Independent Calyfornya so if you pay for the service, you have no choice but to fly in that godforsaken place. :D
If you fly with Vatsim, you get coverage close to world-wide but it is subject to controller availability (i.e. not guaranteed at all times and in all places). And of course you get what you pay for (some controllers are kids with no aviation background and their service unfortunately reeks). OTOH, there are many absolutely amazing controllers on Vatsim. So you get a mix.
 
Why the hell are private pilot instrument students training on an LAX localizer in IMC?

That is not something you will EVER do in real life in a light single.

Want something useful as training? Fly into KHHR. And hope the traffic volume is right because it's going to change how you get vectored.

1) I screwed up my flight plan. Was supposed to fly to KFUL and had KLAX as an alternate but I got them switched. So, I said, meh, I'll take a shot at KLAX...

2) No, it will probably never be a real-world scenario for me. BUT... I did and do learn from each flight and that does translate to my real-world flying. PE flights push my boundaries when having to deal with crazy scenarios in FUBAR airspace.

Things I've learned on PE that I haven't experienced in RW training:
1. Departing IFR from and uncontrolled field with a "hold for release" rather than a departure void time
2. Holding for traffic on an airway
3. IMC with mountain obscuration
4. An unplanned contact approach
5. Defining a Localizer as a route segment
6. Letting my AP fly me into a stall and killing myself

Have I studied this stuff? Yes. Have I discussed it with my CFII? Yes.
Can I fly these scenarios in the real world of the Kansas plains? Nope, not really. With about 67 hours PIC and 109 hours total, I'll take as much experience as I can get.

I'll take your advice and attempt a direct flight to Hawthorne and expect a re-route. I have a similar plan set up to fly from L70 Agua Dulce to KTOA knowing full well I'll get an amended clearance. That trick only really works if you're departing from an airport that is not listed on the SoCal TEC routes.
 
PE is limited to the Republic of Independent Calyfornya so if you pay for the service, you have no choice but to fly in that godforsaken place. :D
If you fly with Vatsim, you get coverage close to world-wide but it is subject to controller availability (i.e. not guaranteed at all times and in all places). And of course you get what you pay for (some controllers are kids with no aviation background and their service unfortunately reeks). OTOH, there are many absolutely amazing controllers on Vatsim. So you get a mix.

There is more than one airport in SoCal with instrument approaches. Even if you limit it to air carrier airports. IRL, ANY of the other public use airports would be much more reasonable, even KSAN (another Class B).

IRL, my most challenging IFR experience in SoCal was trying to track the ILS at KBUR during continuous light chop punctuated with occasional moderate, while SoCal was asking me for best forward speed to keep the purple 737 on my six from ramming me. "Unable" and I had to go around. When getting airspeed excursions from the turbulence, the last thing you want is an approach speed at Vno.
 
There is more than one airport in SoCal with instrument approaches. Even if you limit it to air carrier airports. IRL, ANY of the other public use airports would be much more reasonable, even KSAN (another Class B).

IRL, my most challenging IFR experience in SoCal was trying to track the ILS at KBUR during continuous light chop punctuated with occasional moderate, while SoCal was asking me for best forward speed to keep the purple 737 on my six from ramming me. "Unable" and I had to go around. When getting airspeed excursions from the turbulence, the last thing you want is an approach speed at Vno.

Yup. Sometimes ya just gotta abandon the approach and go around. Ask the pilot of SWA1455.
 
Yup. Sometimes ya just gotta abandon the approach and go around. Ask the pilot of SWA1455.

I could have very easily made the landing, but not with required IFR separation from the aircraft behind. One of us had to go around, and it really was more reasonable for the guy in the $120/hour 172 to do it than a full kerosene sucker with over 100 people on it.

Were this between two light singles on a VFR approach, the rear guy would have had to go around.
 
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