So I did a bad thing

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by John1244, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. John1244

    John1244 Filing Flight Plan

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    I wanted to go back to flight school, so I went ahead and filled out my 8500 form. Well on the form I put that I toke buspar and lexapro. Yeah I didn’t realize that was an issue.. so I gave a confirmation over to the AME. Well he called me and said he can’t do the exam and left me at that. He opened the form.
    So he told me to contact the HIMS AME. He wanted 3000 grand. Okay yeah not worth it I thought. Ill just let it sit. Well today I login into the medxpress and see I can start a new application. Oh cool I thought he deleted it or something. So I fill it out and yes I lied and saw a doc and got the medical.

    then looking back at the forms I release that was really dumb and the previous application is still active. So now I have an active medical, but also I guess a deferred or denied application at the FAA. So, I’m almost positive I’ll never fly again. Once they find out I lied on that application when my previous one was deferred or denied.
     
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So are you sorry that lied or are you sorry that you will probably be caught?
     
  3. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    $3,000,000. That's a bit exorbitant.

    You turned your problem from a medical certification issue to a falsification on a federal form legal issue. The docs here can't help you now.

    Do you have $3,000 to retain a lawyer?
     
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  4. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sigh. BradZ is right.....
    Truth, currently, is sooo devalued in America. We're turning into a 3rd world nation....

    Accept the denial. Find another HIMS AME, (more reasonable) and start doing what's necessary to figure out if it's possible to be certified.
     
  5. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Between a rock and a hard space.
     
  6. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Pattern Altitude

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    Might I suggest motorcycles as an alternative?
     
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  7. John1244

    John1244 Filing Flight Plan

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    Lol cars. I have classic cars.
    I understand some people are mad at me for saying this. Or for lying or what have you.
    The FAA needs to catch up with the modern world. Many people are on antidepressants of some kind and many of us are highly functioning people. I think the system will change eventually once they find out there are many people such as myself who are perfectly capable minus the label of anxiety.
    And honestly, if I had a condition that I knew was truly dangerous to safety I wouldn’t lie. I wouldn’t fly.

    It’s something like this however, that needs a change.
     
  8. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    If he rode motorcycles he wouldn’t need antidepressants
     
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  9. KeepWatch

    KeepWatch Pre-Flight

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    Can't say I disagree with your statement about the FAA needing to catch up. I do disagree that they will. At least anytime soon. They are not trending in that direction. Quite the opposite actually.
     
  10. John1244

    John1244 Filing Flight Plan

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    Motorcycles scare the **** out of me! Lol
     
  11. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    It won’t change unless there is a shortage of working stiffs willing to fly planes for a living. And for the GA crowd, not enough people care enough. It may happen someday, but don’t hold your breath. 100% opinion.
     
  12. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Otto will fly before then.
     
  13. jstone

    jstone Pre-Flight

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    I hope your files somehow fall thru the cracks and you never get anything in the mail from the faa.

    But yea, the faa treats people like garbage if they disclose something small like they took an ssri for 2 months 5 years ago. Best thing to do is to never disclose that. A bunch of Ame’s also advise people off the record to not report something so insignificant. This is what happens when scumbag bureaucrats are given so much power. The “doctors” that work at the faa are the epitome of scum and they get their full salary even if their performance is appalling. The last thing you want is to get involved in the hims program because of how corrupt, expensive, time consuming it is with no guarantee of even getting a medical.
     
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  14. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    The FAA medical process is a raging disaster, it's my number one issue with aviation (everyone else can guess what my 'number 2' issue is)

    Really.. if we read between the lines here, what we can infer is the FAA is effectively telling people to never go to the doctor. Have a perfect life, if you feel sad bury that deep in a box and hope you don't come undone

    Sure the guy doing your heart valve replacement might be a raging alcoholic with suicidal ideation, a DUI, and works 100+ hr a week with no rest because he's a resident and medicine is competitive but God forbid Jim gets behind the controls of a C172.. you know that childhood ADHD diagnosis they gave him because of inept parenting and prescription happy drug companies and doctors is a serious threat to aviation

    Insane.

    Also, basicmed?? Give me a break. Thanks AOPA! Why a doctor should have to inspect your anus in order to determine if you can safely fly a plane is patently bananas
     
  15. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    Me too, I crashed too many bikes as a kid. Now I stick to safer things like antique and experimental airplanes. :D
     
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  16. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    But will you still be high functioning that day that you forget to take your medicine? That is the reason the FAA is “unreasonable”.

    follow the advice - find a new AME, confess and ask them what it takes.
     
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  17. jstone

    jstone Pre-Flight

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    And what’s the difference if the pilot who is under faa monitoring and HIMS forgets to take his/her medication one day? Is it automatically ok now that they paid a **** ton of money and the faa has been made aware they take antidepressants? I’m also pretty sure that if someone did indeed miss their dose that day they would be just as equally high functioning as the previous day and the effects would be noticed most likely after multiple days of not taking meds. So yes, the faa are scum when it comes to ssri use. Bottom line the faa doesn’t have any mechanism to truly know if a pilot has missed their daily medication so yes, they are “unreasonable” pricks.
     
  18. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, there is a lot of mental illness out there. It is very hard to see from the outside how bad someone really is, or how far they swing on the worst hours or days.
    I guess I could see a fair solution being a restricted medical not allowing any passengers for those with previously diagnosed and controlled mental health issues. Nobody else gets put at risk, but the pilot still has an avenue to be able to fly.
     
  19. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Line Up and Wait

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    Do you have mental illness? Do you live with someone with mental illness? If not, try not to make assumptions of how they will react to medication changes/skipped doses.
    I can assure you that even one skipped dose can sometimes be an order of magnitude more severe than a standard pilot taking a dose of NyQuil. And even that means a grounding for 3 days. And yes, I live with a family member with mental illness.
     
  20. AKiss20

    AKiss20 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are absolutely mental illnesses and physical illnesses that should preclude individuals from flying, I really don't think anyone can argue against that. What I do think the FAA sorely lacks is any sense of nuance when it comes to mental illness. They are stuck in the 1950s mentality that any sign of struggle is a sign of weakness and inability, when frankly it's pretty clear that isn't true (again not saying there *aren't* issues that rise to that level). People will argue that if something is bad enough to go see a therapist it is bad enough to ground you, even if no medication is involved. They will argue that anything that rises above what you can or want to handle entirely on your own is bad enough to ground. To that I ask, why? Yes maybe people are seeking out help more frequently and for lower level things than in the past, but why is that a bad thing? Why should we encourage people to ignore a potential a way to reduce suffering just because people in the past suffered through it? Isn't the point of society to make progress towards a better life for us all and the generations that follow us? We don't tell people to suck it up and deal with horrible things like amputation or cancer, deny them prosthetics or treatment, just because people in the past didn't have those resources or knowledge available to them and their lives were harder. Why should mental illness or just typical, but important and difficult, life struggles be different?
     
  21. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    For the OP. Dr. Chien is an expert on these sort of cases and I think his advice here is spot on.

    You may also want to see the main page and FAQs at my FAA medical page at http://tinyurl.com/faaMedicalInfo .

    Sorry you are having to deal with the aeromedical bureaucracy.
     
  22. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    just a note on your page:

    “Initially the requirements for a private pilot were fairly simple, but they have become much more tricky and intrusive over the years.”

    That is not a true statement. The part 67 standards haven’t changed in decades. What’s changed is more doctors are diagnosing conditions more often that don’t meet the standards. Even obstructive sleep apnea has been around for years and has required a special issuance. The difference is now it is diagnosed much more frequently. Yes, the FAA has added addition screening for those who are high risk of OSA.

    If anything, the FAA is issuing SIs for more conditions now than ever before.
     
  23. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pattern Altitude

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    @AKiss20 ... You raise some pretty insightful questions, and I certainly don't have the answers. Just for the sake of further rumination, I've inserted some thoughts below..

    Obviously, where the bar is placed for what you can and can't handle entirely on your own is the critical factor. In an airplane, we are almost always faced with handling adverse situations alone, at least in terms of the physical manipulation of the aircraft, but also in decision-making. True, we can usually talk to controllers, but for the most part we ARE on our own. I wish I had the answer as to how to gauge safely, accurately, and effectively 100% of the time that a person is capable of this, but sadly I don't. Admittedly, neither does the FAA. It's something for which it should strive further.


    In my experience, to a certain extent, the more you depend upon outside help to solve issues and problems, the more you depend upon outside help. Even the definition of "help" can get murky. Is it more helpful to a person in need to always be there for them, or are their times when it's actually more helpful to them to gain the confidence and self-esteem that comes from getting through difficult situations and solving problems on their own? Again, that's a moving target that isn't the same for every person. If receiving help is necessary, then of course, receive help and we should all be glad to give it. If constant help creates dependency, then perhaps it's not always truly helpful.


    We shouldn't for that reason. If ignoring a way to reduce short term suffering can reduce long term suffering, then perhaps it should be considered. A not entirely accurate analogy might be the person who gobbles ibuprofen or acetaminophen every time they feel the slightest ache or pain, but ends up destroying their liver. Something like that, anyway..

    One of the benefits of society, for sure. Helping others is, or at least should be, one of our "prime directives." Conversations constantly ensue as to how to best do that, but you've certainly stated a prime goal.

    Another good question. I think a partial answer lies in definitions. Amputations and cancer are tragedies that have no real room for interpretation; they are what they are.... awful... for everyone. However, and I'm NOT making a value judgement one way or another on this, the definitions of mental challenges and what constitutes an difficult life struggle have changed a great deal over the decades. What used to be considered personality quirks and even routine (especially boyish) childlish behavior are now defined as ADD, ADHD, spectrum autism disorders, and other classifiable conditions... forms of mental illness, one could say. There are difficult life situations that have always been traumatic and will continue to be traumatic for all of us, but there are also people seeing therapists and counselors for concerns they see as important and difficult that would be defined as such by a very small portion of the population. That doesn't mean that the people seeking help aren't suffering, or that they shouldn't be seeking help, but it may indicate that they are more fragile than those who cope well with the same issues without outside intervention. This may have a bearing on what can be handled in the cockpit.

    Just thinking out loud. Like I said, good questions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  24. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Thanks for the comments Brad. While that is true about the regulations themselves, I think the drift of the questions asked on the form, their intrusiveness, the guidance given to AMEs, and the FAA’s internal levels of screening have become considerably more intrusive over the years. That is what I was trying to cover more broadly by saying “requirements”.

    Also, even the regulations have changed a fair amount since the formation of the CAB, haven’t they?

    But if you have a suggestion for a modification to the language on my page which would reflect all these realities in a simple way appropriate for an introductory statement, I would be very happy to hear it and potentially revise.

    My own feeling is that saying “the requirements have become more tricky and intrusive” is not a bad lay summary, but there may well be another better way to cover it.
     
  25. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The anal inspection is on there because it's on the FAA medical certificate application that Congress copied. I don't understand why it bothers people.
     
  26. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There are other conditions that are controlled by medications without being grounded by the FAA, are there not? What happens if those people forget to take their meds that day?
     
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The lack of change in the text of Part 67 may not be definitive, because there is a lot of "qualified medical judgment" mentioned in that text, especially in the neurologic and mental disease sections, and in the blank check provisions of the general medical condition sections.
     
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  28. jstone

    jstone Pre-Flight

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    I’m making zero assumptions. Years ago I battled with my own issues that are long in remission at this point. In addition I also live with someone who has mental illness. When someone is honest and discloses that they took medications for a very mild case of “depression” the faa instantly throws a label on them and demands they provide thousands of dollars worth of useless reports. The airman will then provide said reports after scheduling appointments and spending their hard earned money which then gets sent to the faa and they sit on the paperwork for close to a year. They provide zero updates on paperwork and they basically tell you to **** off your files are in review and refuse to say anything else. Then if you’re even lucky enough for the faa scum to issue a medical you then have a remark on the airman registry that lets everyone who looks you up that at a minimum you have some type of mental health issue at some point in your life. They literally label you and let people know that in their eyes something is defective in that person. If that’s not treating a human being like crap then I don’t know what is. Probably has something to do with the faa docs helping their friends stay in business. Everything is driven by money.
     
  29. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

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    The tone of the OG post has sh*tttaskflying sub on reddit written all over it. Just sayin
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  30. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    If something goes wrong, someone will blame the FAA, so they are in continuous CYA mode. Someone here saying that the best thing to do is lie from the beginning needs to research what could happen if/when the cheater gets caught.
     
  31. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I don't think it's necessary to compare them with medical certification of the past, period. Over the years the FAA has cracked down in Santa Claus AMEs, so perhaps medicals of years past seemed easier to some. We also have the internet and collectively know more about the process and potential pitfalls. Either way, I think it's best to say that the medical certification system is thorough and places a strong emphasis on your medical history, not just how you present yourself in the physician's office that day.
     
  32. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    because it has nothing to do with the safe operation of an airplane and demonstrates mindless government bureaucracy
     
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  33. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Folks taking some medications have no business flying.
    Common side effects of Lexapro and Buspar include:
    • Dizziness.
    • Drowsiness or fatigue.
    • Insomnia.
    • Headache.
    • Nausea.
    • Lightheadedness
    • Blurred vision
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  34. jstone

    jstone Pre-Flight

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    He wasn’t referring to medication. He was talking about how a basicmed exam includes the option of a doctor being able to shove there finger up a pilots ass.
     
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  35. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I don't have the knowledge to speak to that point, but the fact remains that it is an issue that is not specific to BasicMed.
     
  36. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I don't see anything in the wording that says that is required.
     
  37. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Maybe you have to ask nicely for it.

    Nauga,
    out in the alley, just like last year
     
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  38. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Dinner and a movie would be nice.
     
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  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Sorry I was talking about the anus exam thing
     
  40. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    This is a very common list of side effects. A very large fraction of prescription drugs will have the bolded items as possible side-effects.

    That said, if one is experiencing these, whether from medications or other reasons, probably best to be grounded.

    Lexapro, or escitalopram, is one of the 4 SSRIs that can be used and still get a medical. Buspirone not.