Slips on Final - A Question

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
884
Display Name
Display name:
VWGhiaBob
We've all been taught the technique of slips to lose altitude when we're way too high on final.

But I have a question, and please excuse if it's a dumb one. Isn't a slip configuration pretty darn close to how I'd configure the plane to induce a spin? I've never been in a spin and the aircraft I fly prohibits spins (Cirrus).

Still, I'm curious. In full slip mode, if a pilot fails to control airspeed (which tends to decrease rapidly in a hard slip), don't we have a serious problem?

Thanks for any advice!
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We've all been taught the technique of slips to lose altitude when we're way too high on final.

But I have a question, and please excuse if it's a dumb one. Isn't a slip configuration pretty darn close to how I'd configure the plane to induce a spin? I've never been in a spin and the aircraft I fly prohibits spins (Cirrus).

Still, I'm curious. In full slip mode, if a pilot fails to control airspeed (which tends to decrease rapidly in a hard slip), don't we have a serious problem?

Thanks for any advice!
Click to expand...

If you don't pull back on the yoke and load the wing you won't stall so you won't spin.

The same concern could be said for base to final. I've seen many pilots try to reduce the rate of descent by pulling back a little on the yoke. Couple that with some top rudder and....

IMO (humble opinion) being conscience of NOT loading the wing in these maneuvers is key. If you don't do that you can ride a full slip all the way to the ground without concern.
 
It's tough to spin most GA planes while in a slip. A skid (inside rudder) is the spin recipe.
 
Alexb2000 said:
If you don't pull back on the yoke and load the wing you won't stall so you won't spin.

The same concern could be said for base to final. I've seen many pilots try to reduce the rate of descent by pulling back a little on the yoke. Couple that with some top rudder and....

IMO (humble opinion) being conscience of NOT loading the wing in these maneuvers is key. If you don't do that you can ride a full slip all the way to the ground without concern.
Click to expand...

In a slip to lose alt like OP is describing, the yoke would be forward. You might be able to spin a typical spam can on a slip but it won't be easy. A skid (ie base to final with inside rudder) is what will bite you. A slip is safe, a skid is not.
 
I've heard if you slip a cirrus you vent fuel out.

A spin occurs because a stall is coupled with yaw. Like the fellas said, if you don't load the elevator you won't stall. The airspeed indicator is unreliable in a slip so use the proper attitude and you'll be fine, unless it does import fuel which I wouldn't want to do as its blue gold these days.
 
bartmc said:
In a slip to lose alt like OP is describing, the yoke would be forward. You might be able to spin a typical spam can on a slip but it won't be easy. A skid (ie base to final with inside rudder) is what will bite you. A slip is safe, a skid is not.
Click to expand...

right on
 
Sounds like you should get some spin training and improve your skills.
 
Spin training is not possible in a Cirrus. The only approved recovery from a spin in a Cirrus is deployment of the parachute, which preserves the lives of the occupants but typically destroys the plane.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Spin training is not possible in a Cirrus. The only approved recovery from a spin in a Cirrus is deployment of the parachute, which preserves the lives of the occupants but typically destroys the plane.
Click to expand...

There are many other options for spin training. It can even be done in a 172, subject to more stringent than usual limitations on gross weight and CG (in an N, it's under 2000 lb and less than 40.5 inches), with nothing in the back seat. Spins are (usually) approved in a 172 when complying with utility category limits.

The recommendation is for spin training, not necessarily spin training in your airplane.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We've all been taught the technique of slips to lose altitude when we're way too high on final.
Click to expand...
A slip is also the way one lands in a crosswind (eventually, anyway).

But I have a question, and please excuse if it's a dumb one. Isn't a slip configuration pretty darn close to how I'd configure the plane to induce a spin?
Click to expand...
Not really. Yes, it's a cross-controlled maneuver but it's the skid that is particularly conducive to and generally leads to the typical landing stall/spin accident. A slip is intentional, stable, and easy to control.

Still, I'm curious. In full slip mode, if a pilot fails to control airspeed (which tends to decrease rapidly in a hard slip), don't we have a serious problem?
Click to expand...
In any mode, a failure to control airspeed can lead to a serious problem.

A controlled slip (to lose altitude or land in a crosswind) is a pretty stable maneuver. If you;re really concerned about it, you really should grab an instructor and do some altitude-losing slips and, even if your crosswind landings are closer to "crab & kick" than "slip all the way" (it's a continuum), might make sense to do some long wing-low crosswind landings as well (subject of course to the Cirrus recommendation against extended slips of any kind - a fuel flow issue, not an aerodynamic one).
 
Last edited:
VWGhiaBob said:
Spin training is not possible in a Cirrus. The only approved recovery from a spin in a Cirrus is deployment of the parachute, which preserves the lives of the occupants but typically destroys the plane.
Click to expand...

So go find something you CAN do spins in. LOL
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Still, I'm curious. In full slip mode, if a pilot fails to control airspeed (which tends to decrease rapidly in a hard slip), don't we have a serious problem?

Thanks for any advice!
Click to expand...

Well...Actually, your "real" airspeed doesn't really decrease rapidly, only your indicated airspeed. If you remember how the airspeed indicator works, it's just a gauge that displays a pressure differential between the static port and the pitot tube. Since many GA planes have the static port on the pilot's side of the fuselage, and since we primarily point the nose to the right on our slips (to see better from the pilot's side), when we slip the plane we are now ramming air into the static port. This creates a smaller pressure differential and the AS indicator now shows a slower "indicated" airspeed -- even though you will still be moving through the air at about the same speed you were before.

This is why, when many of us (well...at least me) are learning slips, when we roll back to normal attitude we are suddenly carrying a LOT more speed than we thought and tend to float hundreds of feet down the runway. I was always amazed that my airspeed would increase at least 10kts when I came out of my slip. I always though it was because I wasn't bringing the nose up enough enough until a wise instructor reminded me of how the AS indicator works. Even now, though, it still freaks me out to see my AS needle dipping really close to the bottom of the white arc when I'm low & slow. :eek:
 
Most airplanes will not spin out of a slip, up to full deflection - including my Pitts. But this assumes you are setting up the slip like you would for landing - power off, at a slow airspeed, and then slowly creeping the elevator back in an attempt to approach a stall. Do this, and most airplanes (aerobatic or otherwise) will not spin even with full rudder, full aft elevator and aileron held. But of course, if you yank the elevator hard from a higher airspeed, or with power, you can snap it from a slip, which can decay into a spin if you keep the controls deflected.
 
Last edited:
Also, remember slow airspeed does not necessarily equate to stall.....

It's angle of attack
 
Right. I just meant a slow airspeed in a slip is not necessarily indicative of stalling.... So, don't load up the elevator.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
...if a pilot fails to control airspeed (which tends to decrease rapidly in a hard slip), don't we have a serious problem?
Click to expand...

Not the case. It's up to the pilot to control airspeed in an phase of flight. Slipping causes drag, not a decrease in airspeed unless the airplane is flying the pilot. That being said, some airplanes will pitch up slightly when you enter a slip, requiring the pilot to make a pitch adjustment to keep airspeed constant. Other airpalnes will pitch down a little when entering a slip. Again, the pilot controls pitch/airspeed, not the slip.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Spin training is not possible in a Cirrus. The only approved recovery from a spin in a Cirrus is deployment of the parachute, which preserves the lives of the occupants but typically destroys the plane.
Click to expand...

Didn't say you had to do the spin training in the Cirrus. Citabria, Pitts and such are great spinning airplanes. If you'd like to stay with a composite monoplane, there are plenty of Extras out there available for spin training.
 
CFI AandP said:
Didn't say you had to do the spin training in the Cirrus. Citabria, Pitts and such are great spinning airplanes. If you'd like to stay with a composite monoplane, there are plenty of Extras out there available for spin training.
Click to expand...

You can even spin 150/152's. Perhaps a little docile compared to the others, but you can do it.
 
VWGhiaBob, don't worry too much about the spin training recommendations. The need for it is one of those hot topics with strong beliefs. It's certainly available if you think it would help and it can be valuable, but choosing not to doesn't make you any less qualified or proficient as a pilot.
 
Jeanie said:
Right. I just meant a slow airspeed in a slip is not necessarily indicative of stalling.... So, don't load up the elevator.
Click to expand...

This is so true and so misunderstood. It is simply amazing how many pilots equate indicated airspeed and stall. The "request for lift" doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary in any form (AOA being the key). I happened to look at my airspeed indicator the other day - it was reading zip while the airplane was floating very nicely through the top of a loop. No stall. Had I asked for lift...

Ernie
 
midlifeflyer said:
VWGhiaBob, don't worry too much about the spin training recommendations. The need for it is one of those hot topics with strong beliefs. It's certainly available if you think it would help and it can be valuable, but choosing not to doesn't make you any less qualified or proficient as a pilot.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, but a good understanding of stalls and spins along with learning how to slip an airplane would help. There are a lot of airplanes that can't be legally put into a spin and a pretty good number that can't be recovered from a spin. Spin avoidance becomes rather crucial, and an understanding of the spin, stalls, AoA are sort of helpful.

Ernie
 
ebetancourt said:
I totally agree, but a good understanding of stalls and spins along with learning how to slip an airplane would help. There are a lot of airplanes that can't be legally put into a spin and a pretty good number that can't be recovered from a spin. Spin avoidance becomes rather crucial, and an understanding of the spin, stalls, AoA are sort of helpful.

Ernie
Click to expand...
It appears you and I agree completely, Ernie.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...but choosing not to [do spin training] doesn't make you any less qualified or proficient as a pilot.
Click to expand...

You might not be surprised that I disagree with this. There are different levels of proficiency. You choose your own level. Some choose the minimum. Others seek as much experience and skill as possible. Someone with spin training, and especially currency with spins, is definitely operating on a higher level of experience and proficiency (assuming all other things being equal) compared to a pilot who has never experienced a spin.

As pilots, we should want to be "masters" of flight. This means being able to competently handle any area of the flight envelope. If there is a corner of the flight envelope that you have an obvious proficency gap with, why would anyone not want to fill that gap? I believe the people who are proficient and current with spins are much less likely to be the ones who accidentally stall/spin and kill themselves. IOW, If you have the skills, you are less likely to truly need to use them to save your life. And if you ever do find yourself in a spin situation...well, do you want your first one to be alone, and by accident? It might not end well. It takes so little, in the scheme of things. Lore and BS have created fear in lots of pilots, preventing them from doing it. These pilots should fear their experience and profiency gap more than seeing the ground spin below them.
 
Last edited:
RoscoeT said:
You might not be surprised that I disagree with this.
Click to expand...
Not at all. I know there is a strong contingent who would like to bring spin training back as a requirement and believe that pilots who don't want to do it aren't real pilots.

I was just letting the OP know that belief is not universal and some people think it's nonsense.
 
The OP flies a cirrus. They have certain handling characteristics and their own operating envelope. I think that he should explore the edges of that aircrafts envelope with an experienced CSIP and learn how to hand fly every type of approach etc. that may be required. It isn't certified for spins, for all I know it may not be recoverable at all once it's developed past the incipient one turn spin so unless he is just interested in adding that aspect of flight to his experience it's probably moot for his type of flying and needs.

I have heard that many cirrus pilots are auto pilot users exclusively, therefore I think his best use of time, fuel and CFI bucks are simply learning to hand fly that plane in all flight regimes short of spins.

His question was about slips, that's first then in filling in his actual experience in that plane.

I fly aerobatics and teach unusual attitude recovery. Naturally, I believe it's good for a pilot to experience and learn. However, it's not a blanket answer for everyone.
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
Not at all. I know there is a strong contingent who would like to bring spin training back as a requirement and believe that pilots who don't want to do it aren't real pilots.
Click to expand...

Most people I know who are experienced aerobatic/spin pilots and instructors do NOT advocate re-introducing spin training to PPL training or the PTS. They understand the problems associated with that. I am not for this either. But there is a difference between feeling it should be a requirement and believing that it's valuable training to receive from a qualified instructor in a suitable airplane. Therein lies the problem in making it a requirement - too few truly qualified instructors and airplanes for it to be safe. As most know, doing a couple spins and getting a spin endorsement does not mean someone is qualified to teach spins. Spin training issues now are no different than they were a long time ago when there were lots of spin training accidents. I would guess that among the qualified operators who specialize in spin training in aerobatic airplanes, you're more likely to get killed doing initial PPL training.
 
In Rich Stowell's "Stall and Spin Awareness" book, he had (as I recall, I haven't looked lately) a graph that indicated you are farther away from a spin in a slip than when flying straight and level. It was interesting. Rich's book isn't that expensive. It is worthwhile reading for any pilot.
 
I second the vot on reichs books. His emergency maneuvers training one is also a great reference.

I flew with him last summer and it was a wonderful time.
 
Jeanie said:
The OP flies a cirrus. They have certain handling characteristics and their own operating envelope. I think that he should explore the edges of that aircrafts envelope with an experienced CSIP and learn how to hand fly every type of approach etc. that may be required.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right. I spent a year on Cirrus forums and the concern expressed by pilots over doing maneuvers well within the airplane's performance envelope was very surprising.

But, to some degree CSIP were part of the problem. Uniformity has its own conservatism. They are trying to change that.
 
Last edited:
VWGhiaBob said:
Spin training is not possible in a Cirrus. The only approved recovery from a spin in a Cirrus is deployment of the parachute, which preserves the lives of the occupants but typically destroys the plane.
Click to expand...
Or you could push the stick forward and use opposite rudder. Which seem to work exactly as it should when I tried it, despite what the hyperbole might say.
 
A Cirrus slips very well. As one poster mentioned there is a time limit based on running the header tank low. Also the low wing will vent fuel. It looks like more than it is but under some conditions you can smell it. How effective the slip is is very dependent on knowing where the wind is from. In a Cirrus, a slip that points the nose into the wind is a LOT less effective.
 
No, a skid is the configuration for a spin, a slip is what you do on every crosswind landing if you do them correctly. If you are in full slip configuration and run out of angle of attack and stall, the low wing will have to come up and over the airplane. Most planes will break the stall at about wings level in this process and kind of bobble a bit.
 
Last edited:
A Cirrus spins ok too if you can get it into one. I found I had to do a spin entry from a slightly accelerated stall kicking the rudder hard to get it to break over. Recovery was as normal.
 
peppy said:
How effective the slip is is very dependent on knowing where the wind is from. In a Cirrus, a slip that points the nose into the wind is a LOT less effective.
Click to expand...

No, that's the same incorrect logic that leads people to think airplanes lose airspeed turning downwind. For a given ground track, the only difference between slipping left or right, is that one naturally sets up your runway alignment in a x-wind landing, and the other would require you to slip the opposite direction just before touchdown. It does not impact how steeply you descend. The airplane doesn't know which way the wind is coming from.
 
bartmc said:
In a slip to lose alt like OP is describing, the yoke would be forward. You might be able to spin a typical spam can on a slip but it won't be easy. A skid (ie base to final with inside rudder) is what will bite you. A slip is safe, a skid is not.
Click to expand...

I think it's all about maintaining a stabilized approach speed while executing your forward slip. As stated above, the yoke is forward. You have to have the yoke forward to control your pitch and maintain your approach speed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top