Slipping or Crabbing in a Crosswind?

[denverpilot]

(even staying within the demonstrated crosswind component).

What?! Where’s the fun in THAT?!?

You know how much crap I got from our local CFI peanut gallery when I posted that I was done practicing power off 180s in over 20 knots of crosswind component one afternoon?

Must have been six instructors saying I’d better go back up and do more because 20 was nothin’. LOL.

I was just tired, I wasn’t out of rudder... yet. And since it was my airplane and my tires... bunch of nuts in the peanut gallery flying rentals...

Now I know why all the rental fleet’s tires look like crap, even on the expensive advanced aircraft that aren’t being rented for primary training. Hahaha.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What?! Where’s the fun in THAT?!?

Ive had a few of the real fun ones flying personally, but two training events stand out for me.

One was mine when I was working in my CFI. I had been taught the common no flaps in strong xwind fear and my instructor insisted on full flap landings in a 152 on a component+ gusty day to beat it out of me. It made a huge difference in my, um, approach to them.

The other was when I was giving complex transition training to a friend. Similar concerns on his part, and I pretty much handled it the way my CFI taught me.

When I teach crosswind landings, I really do explain my philosophy about "slip all the way" and "crab n kick" just being opposite ends of a continuum, as I do in my FAQ post, Should I Slip or "Crab and Kick for Crosswind Landings?

 

[Doug F]

*about to open a can of worms*

Which is the better method? I prefer to crab it down final and then kick out the crab before touchdown. I’ve never liked the idea of being uncoordinated and low to the ground at the same time.

What about you?

This is from my POH:
When landing in a strong crosswind, use the minimum flap setting
required for the field length. Sideslips with full rudder deflection, may be
made in all flap configurations. Although the crab or combination
method of drift correction may be used, the wing low method gives the
best control. After touchdown, hold a straight course with the rudder
and use up to full aileron deflection as required, and differential braking
as necessary.

My CFI taught kick out the crab. I'm still pretty new at this and haven't spent enough time trying both on the same day to see which works best.

 

[wrbix]

Everyone’s getting a little crabby in this thread.

Everyone?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Everyone’s getting a little crabby in this thread.

I think you're slipping.

 

[ScottinIowa]

I prefer slipping in, because fewer things need to suddenly change and be adjusted in those moments before touchdown. You know how much rudder and aileron you'll need, way in advance instead of at the last minute. Just my pref.

This for sure. Knowing you don't have sufficient rudder a few feet off the ground can be a real problem quick..

 

[denverpilot]

This for sure. Knowing you don't have sufficient rudder a few feet off the ground can be a real problem quick..

Wether you find out a mile out or one foot in the air, the answer to the problem is the same... go around.

A go around shouldn’t be a particularly difficult “problem” for anyone here, I hope. It should be the planned and expected outcome of every approach until the landing is assured.

Heck, you might just find out you have plenty of rudder but you’re an idiot with your feet... that’s way more common than running out of rudder. Go around!

 

[PaulS]

Wether you find out a mile out or one foot in the air, the answer to the problem is the same... go around.

A go around shouldn’t be a particularly difficult “problem” for anyone here, I hope. It should be the planned and expected outcome of every approach until the landing is assured.

Heck, you might just find out you have plenty of rudder but you’re an idiot with your feet... that’s way more common than running out of rudder. Go around!

I was thinking the same thing, a long time ago I ended up out of rudder with a quartering tail wind, I decided to go around, just before one wheel contacted the runway. It was an oh **** time, but I stuck with the go around and got out of there with no damage other than to my ego for letting it get to that point. It's never too late for a go around...… unless you've waited to long to go around, I suppose.

 

[denverpilot]

I was thinking the same thing, a long time ago I ended up out of rudder with a quartering tail wind, I decided to go around, just before one wheel contacted the runway. It was an oh **** time, but I stuck with the go around and got out of there with no damage other than to my ego for letting it get to that point. It's never too late for a go around...… unless you've waited to long to go around, I suppose.

The only time it’s too late for a go around, is in a taildragger that has already started the ground loop.

Wheels on the runway means nothing, if it’s out of control and not going to work, even after touchdown, go around.

Especially in a single where the prop is going to give you back a whole lot more rudder authority as soon as you put the power up.

(With the caveat of super short runways or mighty big obstacles, but you knew about those because of your awesome planning and knew not to get down there on the tiny runway surrounded by huge trees in the first place, if you weren’t going to be able to execute the go around safely in this crosswind and you diverted elsewhere already anyway, right? )

Rolling down the runway on one wheel with that upwind wheel pinned to the ground until flying speed is sufficient to climb? Everybody should practice that!

I’m not really completely kidding. In calm conditions. Practicing that can be a lifesaver later.

My primary instructor made me do one wheel takeoffs out of sheer boredom... but also out of an evil plan to connect my feet to my brain. It makes you work your feet opposite to the bank and gets you a sense of “how much” is normally needed to hold that slip that’s essentially happening on the ground. It’s also teaches you not to be utterly terrified if the wind lifts the upwind wing, just put it back down and your feet will automatically introduce the opposite rudder as you roll it. Don’t panic. The airplane is flying with one wheel touching, it’s fine.

Even putting that upwind pop-off wheel down forcefully is better than leaving the upwind wing up, trying to flip you over!

Only downside is it’s hard on tires when you still suck at it and the instructor has to stay on top of it in regards to side loading. Help the student not use too much rudder either direction until they get the feel for it.

It’s also not something to introduce on day one. The feet have to be partially connected to the brain and the butt and eyeballs have to be registering sideways movement and reacting correctly but without correct control pressures, before it’s a useful training technique.

 

[PaulS]

The only time it’s too late for a go around, is in a taildragger that has already started the ground loop.

Wheels on the runway means nothing, if it’s out of control and not going to work, even after touchdown, go around.

Especially in a single where the prop is going to give you back a whole lot more rudder authority as soon as you put the power up.

(With the caveat of super short runways or mighty big obstacles, but you knew about those because of your awesome planning and knew not to get down there on the tiny runway surrounded by huge trees in the first place, if you weren’t going to be able to execute the go around safely in this crosswind and you diverted elsewhere already anyway, right? )

Rolling down the runway on one wheel with that upwind wheel pinned to the ground until flying speed is sufficient to climb? Everybody should practice that!

I’m not really completely kidding. In calm conditions. Practicing that can be a lifesaver later.

My primary instructor made me do one wheel takeoffs out of sheer boredom... but also out of an evil plan to connect my feet to my brain. It makes you work your feet opposite to the bank and gets you a sense of “how much” is normally needed to hold that slip that’s essentially happening on the ground. It’s also teaches you not to be utterly terrified if the wind lifts the upwind wing, just put it back down and your feet will automatically introduce the opposite rudder as you roll it. Don’t panic. The airplane is flying with one wheel touching, it’s fine.

Even putting that upwind pop-off wheel down forcefully is better than leaving the upwind wing up, trying to flip you over!

Only downside is it’s hard on tires when you still suck at it and the instructor has to stay on top of it in regards to side loading. Help the student not use too much rudder either direction until they get the feel for it.

It’s also not something to introduce on day one. The feet have to be partially connected to the brain and the butt and eyeballs have to be registering sideways movement and reacting correctly but without correct control pressures, before it’s a useful training technique.

Yes, I remember waiting for the flaps to come out, with that wheel on the ground, full throttle, it seemed like a long time but it was probably much less than 10 seconds. It was a long runway with no trees around, Sanford ME back in 1990. I got myself into the problem by asking Unicom which runway they were using, a helpful young lady came on and told me that runway (don't remember which one) and I took her word as good, not checking for a wind sock. After watching my antics some one came on and said the windsock was pointed for the opposite runway. I thanked him but said I had had enough for that day and went back home. Learned a lot of lessons that day. Some day I'll tell you how I became a believer in crosswind correction on take off AND, believing my eyes, not the control tower.

 

[denverpilot]

Some day I'll tell you how I became a believer in crosswind correction on take off AND, believing my eyes, not the control tower.

I think everyone has that epiphany eventually. I know students roll their eyes when instructors ask “Where is the wind from?” and point to their hands in their laps and a centered yoke during taxi, and often haven’t yet seen why it’s important. Then they have “that day” and realize the airplane might flip over if they don’t do it right.

I’ve also had my butt handed to me by helpful runway announcements and not checking the sock. That habit also gets ingrained once you’ve done that one and gone for the downwind landing roller coaster ride or the go around...

The shortest takeoff I’ve ever logged in the STOL equipped 182 was in a steady 30 knot wind straight down the runway. Getting TO the runway was the concerning part. Once lined up, the airplane was off the ground before the throttle was all the way forward. Freakin’ elevator ride.

 

[Art Rose]

When it's really windy, a slip out there on final will give you some idea if you have enough rudder to successfully land on the centerline, rather than on the first row of hangars. Once you're satisfied it's possible, relax a little and let it crab until you're close, then slip it in wing low. Slipping all the way is ok but it can be tiring. Crabbing is ok too, but crabbing all the way to the kick out can sometimes result in some undesireable sideload if it's gusty and your timing is off. Always fly it all the way to the tiedowns.

 

[Bill]

Slipping or crabbing? My answer: "yes".

In a way, yes. If the cross isn't strong, I crab. In most of these cases the cross dissipates as you near the ground and the plane naturally lines up with the runway. If the cross is strong, I slip it from the beginning.

 

[RoscoeT]

Slipping all the way down final is for student pilots to get extended practice aligning the nose. Skilled pilots should transition away from that with experience. But there aren't really two different techniques for LANDING in a x-wind but rather two techniques for flying your APPROACH. Either way, it's proper to touch down wing low in a slip. How late you choose to transition from a crab to slip...whether a mile out on final, or 12" above the runway is a matter of pilot skill and preference. Most folks do not purely crab and "kick" (without transitioning to a wing low slip) since that requires more timing than most pilots have the skill to perform well.

 

[Mike Smith]

Slipping all the way down final is for student pilots to get extended practice aligning the nose. Skilled pilots should transition away from that with experience. But there aren't really two different techniques for LANDING in a x-wind but rather two techniques for flying your APPROACH. Either way, it's proper to touch down wing low in a slip. How late you choose to transition from a crab to slip...whether a mile out on final, or 12" above the runway is a matter of pilot skill and preference. Most folks do not purely crab and "kick" (without transitioning to a wing low slip) since that requires more timing than most pilots have the skill to perform well.

Why?

 

[RoscoeT]

Why?

Because it's totally pointless, uncomfortable to passengers, and could unport fuel in some airplanes if you don't manage the fuel properly.

 

[PaulS]

Slipping all the way down final is for student pilots to get extended practice aligning the nose. Skilled pilots should transition away from that with experience. But there aren't really two different techniques for LANDING in a x-wind but rather two techniques for flying your APPROACH. Either way, it's proper to touch down wing low in a slip. How late you choose to transition from a crab to slip...whether a mile out on final, or 12" above the runway is a matter of pilot skill and preference. Most folks do not purely crab and "kick" (without transitioning to a wing low slip) since that requires more timing than most pilots have the skill to perform well.

Good post Roscoe. Landing in a crab is not a good idea in most aircraft. I like to get the axis of the aircraft aligned with the runway by about 20 feet above, that gives me a few seconds to make sure I have no sideways movement after the transition. Then a gust will usually hit, lol, but you just have to deal with it.

 

[Mike Smith]

Because it's totally pointless,(we can agree to disagree on this one) uncomfortable to passengers,(this may, or may not be true according to who the pax is) and could unport fuel in some airplanes if you don't manage the fuel properly.(this is why I love this place, I didnt know this, but just a quick google search showed me I have plenty more to learn)