Skyhawk to Skylane transition

[Jaybird180]

I soon expect to transition from 172P (/U) to 182N (/G- I think) in about a month or so. The 172's I've been flying have been basic VFR aircraft with GPS and the 182N has Garmin 430 (don't know if it's WAAS or not) and Autopilot.

I've never even smelled the inside of a 182 much less touched a 430 or autopilot.

What are some of the gotchas with this transition? How can I make it easier (less Dual time [$] req'd)?

 

[tonycondon]

you'll learn how to trim and how to use the propeller control. will probably take about 3 hrs to get comfortable

 

[EdFred]

Some people say the 182 is nose heavy. I didn't notice a difference. My checkout and HP endorsement consisted of 0.5 on the Hobbs meter.

 

[Doggtyred]

you'll learn how to trim and how to use the propeller control. will probably take about 3 hrs to get comfortable

Download the free garmin 400 series computer training aid. Learn your radio/nav/GPS on your time/dime, not the instructors.

 

[Jaybird180]

you'll learn how to trim and how to use the propeller control. will probably take about 3 hrs to get comfortable

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

 

[Jaybird180]

Download the free garmin 400 series computer training aid. Learn your radio/nav/GPS on your time/dime, not the instructors.

Hmmm.....is there an app for that?

 

[JOhnH]

I suspect learning the 430 will take more time and practice that learning the difference between a 172 and a 182.

The 400/500 series trainer you can download from Garmin is quite good, but it is just not the same as being in the air and trying to figure out why it aint doing now what it did last time when you did the same thing.

 

[Skylane81E]

Some people say the 182 is nose heavy. I didn't notice a difference. My checkout and HP endorsement consisted of 0.5 on the Hobbs meter.

I noticed it but it wasn't an issue. Just be aware of it because nose wheel landings are bad pie.

My 182 check out was 5 hours long due to the insurance company reqirements. Spent an hour learning to play with the prop, cowl flaps and the different handling then 4 hours carting 200lbs of CFI baggage along on joy rides.

Probably the biggest "gottcha" I've found (now bear in mind I have about 400hrs 182 time and only about 50 in a 172) is the big payload. Seems strange to call it a gottcha but there is a very big difference between flying my plane at around 2100lbs vs 3100lbs. VS at take off from my <1000ft MSL airport can varry by almost 1000FPM depending on how heavy I am.

 

[TMetzinger]

430 Trainer. And I'll be teaching an autopilot class soon - like in the next month. Alternatively, we could spend a couple of hours together one on one to talk you through the KAP140.

 

[tonycondon]

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

full forward for takeoff.

back off redline for climb
back some more for cruise

full forward for landing but only after throttle is reduced out of the governing range

at least that is how i do it

 

[Skylane81E]

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

Very much so, but really it isn't that hard. Typicly I run full for take off and leave it there till cruise then set my desired RPM and leave it untill final where it comes forward again. Just think of it like the gear shift in a manual transmission car.

 

[Skylane81E]

full forward for takeoff.

back off redline for climb
back some more for cruise

full forward for landing but only after throttle is reduced out of the governing range

at least that is how i do it

Beat me to it

 

[EdFred]

full forward for takeoff.

back off redline for climb
back some more for cruise

full forward for landing but only after throttle is reduced out of the governing range

at least that is how i do it

This sounds oddly familiar...

In the Ugmanche I'm full RPM on take off, 2300 in climb and cruise, and prop goes full forward on final or at the FAF, but at that point I'm only turning 2000 or so.

 

[jason]

The big difference with a CS prop is that you don't have to pull the throttle back to descend. Just nose it over and you get to take full advantage of that descent speed (as long as you're in a good range on the ASI).

 

[EdFred]

The big difference with a CS prop is that you don't have to pull the throttle back to descend. Just nose it over and you get to take full advantage of that descent speed (as long as you're in a good range on the ASI).

Just don't watch the fuel flow meter when you do! "I was burning 12gph, now I'm burning 17!"

 

[CJones]

you'll learn how to trim and how to use the propeller control.

Trim is your friend when done correctly or your enemy when done incorrectly in a 182 (or any other 'larger-than-trainer' a/c).

full forward for takeoff.

back off redline for climb
back some more for cruise

full forward for landing but only after throttle is reduced out of the governing range

at least that is how i do it

Ditto.

 

[Skylane81E]

This sounds oddly familiar...

In the Ugmanche I'm full RPM on take off, 2300 in climb and cruise, and prop goes full forward on final or at the FAF, but at that point I'm only turning 2000 or so.

Yeah, I'm 2400 for take off, just off the redline for initial climb, and 2200-2300 for cruise depending on power setting. Prop usually comes forward once the RPM falls off the govenor and I know that I'm full flat pitch.

 

[tonycondon]

in the 182 towplane i'm full balls to the wall until the glider releases then usually about 20" and middle of green RPM until the pattern, then i have to get the sucker slowed down to flap speed

 

[shenanigans]

I soon expect to transition from 172P (/U) to 182N (/G- I think) in about a month or so. The 172's I've been flying have been basic VFR aircraft with GPS and the 182N has Garmin 430 (don't know if it's WAAS or not) and Autopilot.

I've never even smelled the inside of a 182 much less touched a 430 or autopilot.

What are some of the gotchas with this transition? How can I make it easier (less Dual time [$] req'd)?

Don't try to learn the 430 in the plane. It's a waste of your money. You can download the manual, quick reference guide and a 430 simulator software from the garmin website. It's all free. I printed out the manual and read through it while trying things out in the simulator. I didn't have any problems using it once in the plane.

I did a transition from 172 to 182(RG) about a year ago. As other people said, trim is a big deal. You can get away with poor use of trim in a 172, not so much in a 182. When i was first flying it, it seemed like it cruised more nose down than the 172, so it initially looked like it was descending when flying level. I don't recall any problems getting used to the CS prop, it seemed pretty straightforward.

Beyond being nose heavy, the only other thing that comes to mind is having to think ahead a bit more. I noticed it most when coming in to land and having to give myself time to get slowed down. Wasn't a big deal, but did require more planning than with the 172.

 

[brentee]

I've never even smelled the inside of a 182 much less touched a 430 or autopilot.

I'd say they smell pretty much the same.....but, your passenger's armpit is a few inches further away

 

[Skylane81E]

I'd say they smell pretty much the same.....but, your passenger's armpit is a few inches further away

And don't forget it. Actually having sholder room is wonderful!

 

[Ghery]

One warning about the 430 simulator from Garmin - unless something has changed very recently, it will not run on Windows 7. And my machines run Windows 7. Rats.

172 -> 182 ? The 182 is bigger, heavier and more comfortable. Two extra controls, one of which nobody noted - cowl flaps. Keep your engine happy and learn to use them. I like the 182.

 

[CJones]

I did a transition from 172 to 182(RG) about a year ago.

I see you are in Central IA. Does that mean that we have yet ANOTHER 74S flyer on PoA now?

 

[jason]

One warning about the 430 simulator from Garmin - unless something has changed very recently, it will not run on Windows 7. And my machines run Windows 7. Rats.

172 -> 182 ? The 182 is bigger, heavier and more comfortable. Two extra controls, one of which nobody noted - cowl flaps. Keep your engine happy and learn to use them. I like the 182.

I have it running on a Windows 7 virtual machine on my mac.

 

[jason]

Just don't watch the fuel flow meter when you do! "I was burning 12gph, now I'm burning 17!"

Good point. I only know how to use rental power...

 

[Pilawt]

Yeah, I'm 2400 for take off, just off the redline for initial climb, and 2200-2300 for cruise depending on power setting. Prop usually comes forward once the RPM falls off the govenor and I know that I'm full flat pitch.

Your '83 C-182R could be operated a little differently from the OP's C-182N. The 182R's O-470-U engine is redlined at 2400 rpm and could reasonably (though not optimally) be run all day with the prop knob full forward. The 182N's O-470-R turns up to 2600 rpm. Though there is no legal time limit on running it at that speed, you'd definitely want to back off of that for climb and cruise for better noise level and efficiency.

 

[shenanigans]

I see you are in Central IA. Does that mean that we have yet ANOTHER 74S flyer on PoA now?

Yes you do.

 

[roadwarrior]

I fly two different 182's and I have to be careful on both not to over heat them. That means opening cowl flaps and richening mixture to keep the heads cool enough. That was rarely a problem inthe 172.

 

[battmain]

For me the transition was a non event. It was cold that day too, so Vx climb using the turbo, was pretty enlightening. The Turbo Inlet Temp (TIT) was a new gauge to monitor.

Extra items I had to contend with...More trim, cowl flaps, Prop control, throttle back on climb out, and extra 15kts of speed on everything. Didn't notice the extra speed until I was told to tighten up the airline pattern.

 

[Skylane81E]

Your '83 C-182R could be operated a little differently from the OP's C-182N. The 182R's O-470-U engine is redlined at 2400 rpm

Correct

 

[jesse]

in the 182 towplane i'm full balls to the wall until the glider releases then usually about 20" and middle of green RPM until the pattern, then i have to get the sucker slowed down to flap speed

In the 182 with skydivers I'm full rpm and full throttle up to 10,500. Then cowl flaps closed, prop and MP to bottom of green, and in a tight spiral. I push the prop forward somewhere on short final. I lean to keep the EGT about where it was on climbout after takeoff.

They've yet to crack a cylinder.

 

[Tom-D]

My 182 customer was a student pilot and had 35 hours in 150/152/172. and PA 28-140. He bought his 182E and soloed it after 4 hours with his CFI.

No a big deal,

 

[Doggtyred]

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

A tad.

For typical XC profiles throttle forward is accurate.

Prop full forward for takeoff and initial climb. Pull back a tad to 2400 rpm crossing the fence.

Mixture back/lean once level in cruise.

 

[denverpilot]

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

If you mean the propeller control, on the older 182s (like my P-model) you get 2600 RPM for takeoff power and "maximum performance climb" power, and 2450 is the top of the green arc for continuous operation.

Since the 2600 is allowed for max-climb at any time, you probably could get away with it all day long.

First thing you'd notice is that you ran out of gas -- since the cruise numbers are based on 2450 in the book... with appropriate MP/throttle settings listed in the table.

If you have no need to go anywhere in a hurry, selecting something from the POH for MP/RPM that allows for 2300 RPM or even lower, usually results in a slightly quieter "drone" from the engine, and lower tach time than Hobbs if you're paying for the engine replacement, paying by tach time, and/or building hours. Go a little slower, and enjoy the view.

The sooner you can safely get the prop back on the 2-bladed Skylanes, the nicer you are to the airport neighbors too, since the tips are making a whole lot of noise at that RPM.

But there's different camps on that... some climb WOT at 2600 RPM until level-off, making all sorts of racket, and others gingerly bring that prop control back a couple hundred feet up as part of the "clean-up" for climb and climb shallower and faster in a "cruise climb" type configuration. The vernier control works nicely for this... just start twisting, no need for rapid movement of the control.

Me, it depends on the conditions and the climb rate... if I'm not making 500 FPM upward, everything stays firewalled. Around here, that means winter or a light load. If I need Vx to clear an obstacle (rare for me) it's firewalled. If I can safely climb out at 95 MPH or faster, and I'm making 400-500 FPM, I'll start getting the prop back.

At lower altitudes where the engine is giving a whole lot more power, getting the prop back is a no-brainer to lower noise, etc.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but my study on this (Mooney specific) suggests full forward take off to decent. Is this overly simplistic?

On the prop? Or the throttle?

In the 182, that's about how I operate the throttle - Full throttle from takeoff roll until late in the descent when I need to start slowing down. (The DA40 needs to be slowed down somewhat earlier.)

The prop, however, is only full forward for the takeoff roll and after the final power reduction before landing.

Engine-wise, here's what I do in the 182:

1) Ground ops: Mixture aggressively leaned, prop full forward, throttle as required, cowl flaps open.
2) Takeoff: Everything forward unless I'm at DA >4000.
3) After takeoff: Prop back to 2500 (from the full 2600) around 500 feet, check EGT.
4) Climb: Lean to the EGT noted in the initial climb.
5) Cruise: After reaching cruise speed, prop back to desired cruise setting (2200-2400) and mixture leaned appropriately, and close cowl flaps.
6) Descent: I don't change a thing on the initial descent other than pushing the nose over and trimming for a 500fpm descent.
7) Late descent: <3000 AGL or so I'll pull the throttle back to 20 inches.
8) Pattern entry: Within a couple miles of entering the pattern or on a 3-5 mile final if I'm not going around the pattern, I'll pull the throttle back to 16 inches, which should eventually get me down to 100 mph (well into the white arc).
9) Final descent: Leaving pattern altitude, I pull the throttle back to about 12" or slightly less, but what I'm looking for is to get it out of the governing range so I set the throttle such that I'm getting 2000 RPM. At this point, prop and mixture go full forward. Full flaps, 2000 RPM, 80 mph (69 or 70 KIAS) the rest of the way in.
10) Go around: Climb it, clean it, COOL IT (cowl flaps open) and call it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes you do.

Wow. How many of us are there now? You, Tony, Chris, and me at least...

That's one heckuvan airplane at a great rate. (Is it still $120/hr?)

 

[denverpilot]

Your list looks almost exactly like what I do in ours... notes inline...

1) Ground ops: Mixture aggressively leaned, prop full forward, throttle as required, cowl flaps open.
2) Takeoff: Everything forward unless I'm at DA >4000.

Above 4000' DA mixture two half turns in from peak at run-up, or if maximum performance needed (above 8000' DA) full-power run-up leaned to peak.

3) After takeoff: Prop back to 2500 (from the full 2600) around 500 feet, check EGT.

I come back to 2450 RPM since that's the top of the continuous range (green arc) unless maximum climb is needed. If max required, leave it at 2600. It's authorized to run there for climbs. I needed it at 2600 all the way from KASE to Hagerman Pass, for example.

4) Climb: Lean to the EGT noted in the initial climb.
5) Cruise: After reaching cruise speed, prop back to desired cruise setting (2200-2400) and mixture leaned appropriately, and close cowl flaps.

I will delay the cowl flap closure if the CHT is high -- and on a 90F+ day, they may just stay open the whole flight.

Without the aforementioned JPI, I have a place on the CHT gauge that I won't operate above, and I will also dump more fuel to it via mixture if it's really hot and/or (usually both) shallow the climb.

In the mountains the option to shallow the climb may not be there, though... Vy and it won't do any more. If I had to shallow up there I'd level off and then "shuttle climb" in big ovals if there were no other options.

6) Descent: I don't change a thing on the initial descent other than pushing the nose over and trimming for a 500fpm descent.
7) Late descent: <3000 AGL or so I'll pull the throttle back to 20 inches.

I *try* to do this slowly... no more than 2" MP per minute, and plan to do it as far out as necessary, but sometimes I forget and/or I want the speed in the descent. Your technique works fine too.

8) Pattern entry: Within a couple miles of entering the pattern or on a 3-5 mile final if I'm not going around the pattern, I'll pull the throttle back to 16 inches, which should eventually get me down to 100 mph (well into the white arc).
9) Final descent: Leaving pattern altitude, I pull the throttle back to about 12" or slightly less, but what I'm looking for is to get it out of the governing range so I set the throttle such that I'm getting 2000 RPM. At this point, prop and mixture go full forward. Full flaps, 2000 RPM, 80 mph (69 or 70 KIAS) the rest of the way in.

I shoot for 1700 RPM, but similar. I fly a pretty tight pattern so I'm probably doing a bit higher descent rate.

10) Go around: Climb it, clean it, COOL IT (cowl flaps open) and call it.

And I'd add...
11) See #1... get the cowl flaps open on the ground and lean aggressively exiting the runway.

 

[roadwarrior]

If I had to shallow up there I'd level off and then "shuttle climb" in big ovals if there were no other options.

That's a good point. I don't have mountains to worry about but, sometimes I have to nose over and let the airspeed build up just to get the cylinder head temperatures down before I try it again.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I *try* to do this slowly... no more than 2" MP per minute, and plan to do it as far out as necessary, but sometimes I forget and/or I want the speed in the descent. Your technique works fine too.

Where'd you get 2"/min from?

FWIW, I'm usually only at 22" or so before that pull to 20 anyway.

I shoot for 1700 RPM, but similar. I fly a pretty tight pattern so I'm probably doing a bit higher descent rate.

Do you use full flaps? Do yours go to 40º? If no on either, well, I know that without full flaps it'll speed up at 2000 RPM. But, going from 16", 100mph and clean level in the pattern to 12"/2000RPM gets me to 80mph and full flaps on final with no further trim or power changes. I've kinda developed this over time as I try to add finesse to my flying. Finesse doesn't get along with the 182 quite so easily as it does in some other airplanes.

And I'd add...
11) See #1... get the cowl flaps open on the ground and lean aggressively exiting the runway.

That's exactly why I titled #1 "Ground ops" as opposed to "before takeoff" or somesuch. But yes, I should have maybe said

11 GOTO 1

 

[denverpilot]

Where'd you get 2"/min from?

Think it was a Deakin or Busch article somewhere... digging... hmm...

Basically just said it was nicer to slowly pull the power off -- wasn't a "shock cooling" article, but I forget the reasoning other than just being nice to the engine. Then I go out and do stall recoveries and break all these "rules" anyway... so not sure what the point is. Co-owner gave the throttle cable a workout when he did the Cessnas2Oshkosh formation flight training flights too... heh heh... no "subtle" power changes there... put the other airplane at a spot in the side window and keep it there, whatever wacky power adjustments it takes.

Do you use full flaps? Do yours go to 40º? If no on either, well, I know that without full flaps it'll speed up at 2000 RPM. But, going from 16", 100mph and clean level in the pattern to 12"/2000RPM gets me to 80mph and full flaps on final with no further trim or power changes. I've kinda developed this over time as I try to add finesse to my flying. Finesse doesn't get along with the 182 quite so easily as it does in some other airplanes.

Hahaha... like that quote... but yeah, we have 40, and I like 'em since we also have the STOL kit... my god it'll land slooooow. With Flaps 40, you can easily turn 1/2 mile final at pattern altitude and make the numbers without slipping. Just an enormous amount of drag. It'll drop like a rock.

if you're doing 40 flaps power off, 65 knots indicated, it's one heck of a sink rate... and with the STOL kit that'll be one heck of a balloon followed by a "prompt" arrival from a few feet up if you time all that wrong with the elevator.

You also need to slow to 55 indicated over the numbers or you'll guarantee a balloon. The elevator is quite effective at 65... too effective actually.

Flaps 20 is a much nicer landing in our bird most of the time... feels and looks similar to the other 182s at flaps 30, since our ailerons droop maximum is just past 20 before they start coming up again. Flaps 20, the whole wing is one big giant flap, basically.

At Flaps 30 our ailerons have started "retracting" a bit, and at Flaps 40 they're only a few degrees down.

Biggest PITA for me is that I've had 182 numbers from flying other 182s plastered into my brain in Knots for years... then I started flying 79M which has a dual MPH/Knots airspeed indicator. MPH required by model year and the STOL STC, which is all in MPH, but obviously someone in her past wanted knots too, so he bought a wonky ASI that has a Kollsman window for knots in the inner ring. Annoying that you can't see the whole circle for the speeds in knots, but I tend to not have the airspeeds in MPH memorized and the ones in knots are, since I fly other 182s with only knots -- so I'm always looking through that stupid Kollsman window.

Have gotten used to it now, but it was weird when I first started flying her.

That's exactly why I titled #1 "Ground ops" as opposed to "before takeoff" or somesuch. But yes, I should have maybe said

11 GOTO 1

Yay BASIC code!