Simulator versus Aviation Training Device (ATD)

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by jonvcaples, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    There is a lot of conversation around using simulators for training and how to "log" that time. Here is a few things to keep in mind and please remember this is not an exhaustive treatment.

    First, the FAA has very specific definitions for a simulator, ATD, and crediting that time for currency or toward a license or rating. The airlines and many training vendors have simulators that are certified for and allow you to receive training and take your checkride in them. Your first flight will be with a specially designated captain and paying customers onboard. After completing a specified number of flights called Operating Experience (OE) you are signed off to fly with regular line pilots.

    Most of the devices to which we GA types have access are ATDs which the FAA designates as either a Basic ATD (BATD) or Advanced ATD (AATD). Although you can do all kinds of fun stuff with them each devices must comply with a specific Letter of Authorization (LOA) that describes the device and what maneuvers can be taught or practiced with it. As an example look at the Redbird FMX1000 which is one of my favorites. Can you practice take offs and landings? Yes! Can you count them for currency? NOPE!

    What about VFR maneuvers and instrument stuff? You can do a lot of things but there are limits on how much time can be counted for proficiency or toward a license or rating. And none of the time can be logged as aircraft time. Standby for more separating fly feces from pepper.

    Go forth and aviate!
     
  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    We’ve covered this subject at least a few hundred times over the years and the consensus that most have concluded, is that desktop simulators are only beneficial in teaching instrument work. For actual stick and rudder training, they’re virtually useless and that goes for Redbird products as well.

    Airline Level D simulation is on a totally different and incomparable level.
     
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  3. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    I want to thank the Op for this wonderful message.
     
  4. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Ryanb truly there is none so blind as he who refuses to see
     
  5. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I have done five type ratings in simulators for captain checkrides as you have mentioned.
    Trust me... as @Ryanb has pointed out, those simulators do not resemble a laptop or a Redbirdys.
     
  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You’ve merely written a series of statements, so I’m not sure what kind of replies you’re looking for, nor what you’re trying to imply here.
     
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  7. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    Best of luck to your post count and ‘likes’!
     
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  8. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Redbirds don't actually simulate anything. Their use as a training tool is worse than useless, in my opinion. The avionics don't work like the ones they claim to support. The flight models are unlike any real airplane, and the full-motion device is a carnival ride.
     
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  9. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    I'm afraid to ask, but what is @jonvcaples point?

    Yes, BATD exists. It is logable time towards instrument and commercial. Without checking, I don't believe it is approved for IFR currency.

    You bashed Redbird, for some reason. I will say they Redbird Crosswind simulator is pretty helpful. I haven't used any of their other offerings.
     
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  10. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    To be fair, they're useful for primary training of cockpit flows, use of checklists, emergency procedures, and electronic navigation skills. I agree that they're not the best at teaching pure stick and rudder skills, but they can be used to introduce and teach basic airmanship concepts such as "pitch for airspeed" or use of trim.
     
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  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’m trying to figure that out too. Firing back with demeaning statements as quoted above doesn’t help matters either.
     
  12. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The big boy's toys are awesome! Did 1900 type in sim, D328 training, and while teaching systems at UAL B757, Completed training and had several Standards Captains volunteer to do the type rating but management quashed that dream.

    Folks the point of all this is to get people talking and, hold onto hats, thinking! Some thoughts that are hopefully triggered:
    1-USE CORRECT TERMS!!! Aviation is a wonderful mixture of art, science, technology, and people. Let the press and those who are unknowing or uncaring perpetuate ignorance. Hey J Pilot tell me about that puddle jumper Piper Cub you fly...what is this doohickey...well are you going to help this person learn or reinforce their lack of knowledge? Mean what you say and say what you mean. Add to the world of knowledge and seek to minimize ignorance.

    2-Learn things! What is the latest and greatest? How can you integrate new stuff. The new ATDs are incredible for both the student AND instructor. (At Experience Of Flight (south side of KAPA) we offer a 10 minute session in the FMX 1000. No charge, it's included with admission and as long as the device is up and one of our qualified volunteers is available you will be scheduled. A typical scenario is a north bound takeoff from KAPA then a trip around the pattern.) But go learn! How does GPS work? What type of navigation solution does it provide? What type of math does it use? Check back after a while for the answers.

    3-Be engaged! Get involved! Look for opportunities to advance aviation among aviators and non-aviators.

    Let us take what we have and turn it into something better!
     
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  13. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    This thread is super bizarre....
     
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  14. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Using this platform as your soapbox? :p
     
  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    God I hate going to the sim.
     
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  16. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    @jonvcaples i am sure your intentions are honorable but your approach so far would be similar to this scenario:

    Everyone at POA is hanging out having a nice adult beverage after a day of flying and general spreading of ****ery. You walk through the door wearing a pirate costume and say something vaguely reminiscent of a monte python skit. You tell everyone they should think about that for a while then you disappear out the door.

    Everyone stops talking in a confused moment trying to understand what just happened.

    Meanwhile @Tom-D and @weirdjim are in a dark corner at a table for two and @Tom-D says “I like that guy’s style.”

    Welcome to POA @jonvcaples you’ll have a blast ;-)
     
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  17. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I was thinking it was more along the lines of walking in and saying, "Hey peons I think I know a lot of stuff, and I am going to tell your about how much stuff I know. I don't care to know who you are or even what your interests may be, just listen to me tell you about how much I know and be grateful you are allowed in my presence."
     
  18. chartbundle

    chartbundle Cleared for Takeoff

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    With checking, the regs only specify 'ATD' in general, you need to go to the actual LOA for whichever device you're using. The Redbird BATD does say it's usable for 61.57c, so that one could be used for currency, but not an IPC.
     
  19. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Tarheelpilot you got it! There's a penguin on the telly and I don't like it! And who could forget, "just a flesh wound, come back and fight!"

    Sometimes I get full of myself and let me apologize for that up front. But my goal is to challenge the status quo and encourage discussion. And yea sometimes it is fun to be a bit unexpected and irreverent.

    From earlier:
    GPS calculates the distance from the receiver to multiple satellites. Using spherical trigonometry, it calculates the location of the receiver. It performs bearing and distance solutions via a Great Circle.
     
  20. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    If he had been affiliated with delta sure. United... well intentioned but socially awkward.

    :)
     
  21. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    TRUTH! :rofl::rofl:
     
  22. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I imagined him looking and sounding like Patrick Warburton in the National Car Rental ads lol.

    Seriously, @jonvcaples , this forum has been here for a very long time, and most topics aviation have been hashed, rehashed, and beaten into the ground. The horse is not only dead, but his carcass has been picked clean by the vultures and raccoons. Nothing but bones left at this point.
     
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