Sick-out at American?

[wabower]

I think he's saying that legacy carriers must be able to compete with the start-ups and those companies who took the bath earlier. I think he's right and that Arpey's opposition to BK after 9-11 was a mistake.

And what he says is every union is an obstacle.

Sigh.

AA is done and we will be left with:
Delta
USAir
Untied
Southwest

 

[denverpilot]

What's eerie is one could replace "management" with "government" and Horton with Obama and its the exact same song and dance.

American Airlines, bankrupt and won't admit it.

Country, bankrupt and won't admit it.

Sorry if that's too political or even touching SZ, but I found the rhetoric to be virtually identical.

"Don't blame the new guy for having no solutions to the previous guy's errors."

That excuse can go on forever with false leaders from any Party or anywhere.

What's significantly different about American, is that there's a Board of Directors who's overseen the whole thing, so this guy's "give the CEO a chance" speech falls on deaf ears here.

It's the Board that needs to be fired.

In the case of government, the "Board" (Congress) is re-elected every few years, but its not making much of a difference.

The bankruptcy was inevitable, but AA management is working political angles to make it look like it wasn't their personal decisions that lead there. Fascinating strategy. Easy to see through it, though.

Claiming the pilots are hurting their co-workers or disrespecting them is a lovely tactic. Where was the original disrespect rooted?

Oh well. It's interesting watching a Country go bankrupt. The AA thing is just a symptom of the whole.

 

[wabower]

Weren't you the one blaming prior generations for all of your problems?

What's eerie is one could replace "management" with "government" and Horton with Obama and its the exact same song and dance.

American Airlines, bankrupt and won't admit it.

Country, bankrupt and won't admit it.

Sorry if that's too political or even touching SZ, but I found the rhetoric to be virtually identical.

"Don't blame the new guy for having no solutions to the previous guy's errors."

That excuse can go on forever with false leaders from any Party or anywhere.

What's significantly different about American, is that there's a Board of Directors who's overseen the whole thing, so this guy's "give the CEO a chance" speech falls on deaf ears here.

It's the Board that needs to be fired.

In the case of government, the "Board" (Congress) is re-elected every few years, but its not making much of a difference.

The bankruptcy was inevitable, but AA management is working political angles to make it look like it wasn't their personal decisions that lead there. Fascinating strategy. Easy to see through it, though.

Claiming the pilots are hurting their co-workers or disrespecting them is a lovely tactic. Where was the original disrespect rooted?

Oh well. It's interesting watching a Country go bankrupt. The AA thing is just a symptom of the whole.

 

[denverpilot]

Weren't you the one blaming prior generations for all of your problems?

Probably. What's it got to do with AA's bad management? Or the over-growth of government?

What's your point? Didn't happen on my watch.

Wasn't anyone my age that "accomplished" these fiscal feats of daring-do. We do get to listen to how wonderful the people who did it, think highly of themselves, though.

He's apparently enamored of the bankrupt business he left behind and the culture he fostered.

These guys who want to be MFWIC never seem to have any consequences for their failures.

 

[jFlight]

Do not buy AA tickets for your flights!

I will be lucky through dfw to my destination tonight. So ****ed! Halfly at myself...I should have been thinkng whenbuying the best airfare deal on the website!

At least there is a very nice view of runway ops at my departure airport. Verycool with my recent PPL cert. GA on 19L and commercial on 19R. I've three hours to get bored of it, though!

 

[jFlight]

3rd stdby attempt. Chated up lady at desk and she admitted it is first day for new outsourced cabin cleaners causing delays everywhere. Uuugh....

 

[comanchepilot]

This is pure and simple the public destruction of a storied company by people acting like children.

Look, I'm no fan of AMR management - they have lied. they are greedy sobs. they are doing things solely for the benefit of management - not the passengers - not the employees 0 but themselves.

I have a good friend who is a 757/767 Captain and I cannot even speak to him about it - the pilots are off the rails here.

Bad management caused the loss of billions of dollars. But what the pilots are doing is going to drive the nails into the coffin. It looks like they have backed off but now its managements job to screw things up.

As a passenger, delaying departures for cabin cleaning always infuriated me. It's 8pm - the plane has been moving all day - why are we taking a 45 minute delay for cabin cleaning? For CHrist sakes, load the passengers and fly the damn trip and clean the plane at the outstation. So I have drink napkins and peanuts on the floor - I've lived through worse in the world. I just want to get where I am going - in fact - my car in probably in worse shape than that airplane.

That said - unions are not all evil. Management are not geniuses and far from it.

But - American is done - too many years of labor problems and the cabin crews are angry, unmotivated and just plain surly. Put them out of their misery - they want to work for USAir [America West?] anyway.

 

[flyingron]

]

And for those foolish enough to believe that US Airways and Doug Parker are the answer, ask any US Airways pilot; that should clear that up "rat now."

Yeah, and ask for anybody (Pilot, executive, mechanic, etc) who worked for Piedmont before US Air got them.

 

[Fearless Tower]

But - American is done - too many years of labor problems and the cabin crews are angry, unmotivated and just plain surly. Put them out of their misery - they want to work for USAir [America West?] anyway.

That says alot right there.....you know it's bad when they WANT to work for Doug Parker.

 

[wabower]

It's even more discouraging (if that's possible) to watch this mess as a Dallas resident with freq fly points and credit card with AA. Their service has been horse and getting worse for many years, but at least the planes ran on an "acceptably late" schedule. I won't fly again until the Palm Springs golf trip in late Jan, and occasionally wonder which carrier's name will be painted on the plane.

None of the pilots or others who went to work for USAir before the first bust seem to be all that enthralled with them.

 

[bbchien]

....with AA. Their service has been horse...

That's telling, 'em, Wayne.....

 

[wsuffa]

None of the pilots or others who went to work for USAir before the first bust seem to be all that enthralled with them.

USAir is still fighing union negotiations between east and west (old US and old AmericaWest). Don't know how they'd manage with yet another in the mix.

 

[SCCutler]

I talked with a US Airways Captain (West), says the union can kiss his... backside. Says as far as he's concerned, all they care about it keeping the fight going. He thinks they'd better off without the union.

While for airline pilots I typically would disagree, in this instance it may be the case.

Come to think of it, that may make the US Airways / America West / American pilots all one big dysfunctional family.

 

[N801BH]

...... He thinks they'd better off without the union.

Come to think of it, that may make the US Airways / America West / American pilots all one big dysfunctional family.

Ya think .

 

[denverpilot]

Aren't all pilots one big disfunctional family?

And who gets to define disfunctional, anyway! We are all quite happy, here, in the trailer park.

 

[comanchepilot]

My wife got home yesterday from an in and out to STL., She drove to LAX to get the nonstop - it was on time surprisingly both ways. She is lifetime Platinum - thats 2 million miles or points earned. That's a significant milestone in their program. Not that its gonna matter much but . .. here is a story from the trip home last night in first class.

She gets on the plane and falls asleep. They take off and 30 min after departure she wakes up. She looks around and sees they've already thrown the snack plate at the passengers. the FA comes through and she asks if she can get a glass of wine and her snack plate. According to her the F/A acted like it was the height of impropriety - the F/A told her that 'we've already done the meal service and you were asleep. But I can get you the wine. She comes back with a glass of white after not asking my wife what she wanted - lynn says: "I actually wanted Red, you did not ask me."

The F/A huffed and puffed and went back for the red and puts it in a plastic cup. Nice.

So Lynn takes out the little forms they send to the elite customers to hand out for good service. These are pretty coveted by the employees because they get goodies when they get them. This identifies her pretty quickly as a fairly high level elite. The F/A's 'tude immediately changes - and she brings out the food tray with a fresh glass of wine in the glass that is on the tray.

My wife leaves the form out until landing and puts it away. She said if looks could kill . . .

But thats kind of where it is now . . .

 

[Henning]

This is pure and simple the public destruction of a storied company by people acting like children.

Look, I'm no fan of AMR management - they have lied. they are greedy sobs. they are doing things solely for the benefit of management - not the passengers - not the employees 0 but themselves.

I have a good friend who is a 757/767 Captain and I cannot even speak to him about it - the pilots are off the rails here.

Bad management caused the loss of billions of dollars. But what the pilots are doing is going to drive the nails into the coffin. It looks like they have backed off but now its managements job to screw things up.

As a passenger, delaying departures for cabin cleaning always infuriated me. It's 8pm - the plane has been moving all day - why are we taking a 45 minute delay for cabin cleaning? For CHrist sakes, load the passengers and fly the damn trip and clean the plane at the outstation. So I have drink napkins and peanuts on the floor - I've lived through worse in the world. I just want to get where I am going - in fact - my car in probably in worse shape than that airplane.

That said - unions are not all evil. Management are not geniuses and far from it.

But - American is done - too many years of labor problems and the cabin crews are angry, unmotivated and just plain surly. Put them out of their misery - they want to work for USAir [America West?] anyway.

Amen, I don't care if there is a napkin in the seat pocket, get me on the plane on time.

The Airline Union System is a pro management system. If you have a union, have an industry wide union, not ech company has it's own union, that's fully retarded and the Rank and File should not allow it. All it's about is having more union officers and office workers and a dilution of union pool funds. The airlines love it because it allows them to hire in 30,000hr captains for $18,000. How can people pay a union to limit their lateral mobility?

 

[N801BH]

............
The airlines love it because it allows them to hire in 30,000hr captains for $18,000. How can people pay a union to limit their lateral mobility?

Agreed... it always amazes me how someone can be smart enough to fly 30,000 hours as a captain and be dumb enough to fall for the crap the unions shove down their throats..

 

[catmandu]

Don't worry, everything's all better:

Union board and AMR Management have reached an agreement, headed to the membership for a vote in a few days.

But they will still delay to clean the cabin, sorry (pilots left that clause out of the contract ).

 

[Greg Bockelman]

USAir is still fighing union negotiations between east and west (old US and old AmericaWest).

Actually, I think it is the East and West Unions that are fighting amongst themselves. I think Management is perfectly content to sit back and watch the infighting. As long as the unions themselves are fighting, Management doesn't really have to deal with other things.

Don't know how they'd manage with yet another in the mix.

'Twould be interesting indeed to watch. I really feel for AA if they get caught up in that disaster.

 

[Henning]

The whole pilot union industry needs to be busted and reformed into one union and I guess the only fair way is to just reassign seniority by date of hire of your current job, yeah, some guys get shorted but no worse off than you were, going forward though you have latteral mobility. Now the union can actually provide a benefit to the Airlines and Rank and File by taking over the training and consolidating it all taking it off the airlines hands. Members can come in on their off time and earn their type ratings in equipment they would like to bid for in the future and also fill any bid requests from the airlines. Unions don't have to be adversarial and can provide a benefit, it just takes leadership that looks out for everyone's best interest.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

The unions at American deserve what they get, after the hose job they did to all the TWA employees after that merger.

 

[Henning]

The problem is we all pay for it in the long run. We don't exist in microcosms of individuality, that's the failure in that type of thought.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The Airline Union System is a pro management system.

What is funny is that the merchant marine union system is the exact same. The only difference is that the US Merchant Marine went through that shift in union thinking about 15 years ago.

 

[Henning]

What is funny is that the merchant marine union system is the exact same. The only difference is that the US Merchant Marine went through that shift in union thinking about 15 years ago.

There's only few unions really and only a couple good ones, SIU and AMO, I'm currently AMO. But it was a different development. It's not like each shipping line had a union like it is with the airlines, they were more or less representing port regions. Pretty much everything but the oilfield is union, but there is no seniority book on officers, that's a ratings thing. I have total lateral and upward mobility at my capability, I can walk on a boat as captain at AMO. Even SIU at Crowely there was only a little flak over rapid promotion ahead of senior mates.

 

[Art VanDelay]

The whole pilot union industry needs to be busted and reformed into one union and I guess the only fair way is to just reassign seniority by date of hire of your current job, yeah, some guys get shorted but no worse off than you were, going forward though you have latteral mobility. Now the union can actually provide a benefit to the Airlines and Rank and File by taking over the training and consolidating it all taking it off the airlines hands. Members can come in on their off time and earn their type ratings in equipment they would like to bid for in the future and also fill any bid requests from the airlines. Unions don't have to be adversarial and can provide a benefit, it just takes leadership that looks out for everyone's best interest.

What are you talking about ???? There's AA's Union and there's Southwest's Union. Everybody else is ALPA. That's about 55,000 pilots. So I don't see where we are incredibly fractured. But what good does any of it do if when you strike the Presidential Emergency Board forces you back to work ???

 

[flyingmoose]

What are you talking about ???? There's AA's Union and there's Southwest's Union. Everybody else is ALPA. That's about 55,000 pilots. So I don't see where we are incredibly fractured. But what good does any of it do if when you strike the Presidential Emergency Board forces you back to work ???

Doesn't really do you any good at all. If you really need to have a union to feel like you are getting a fair shake then do what southwest does and form your own. These one size fits all national organizations just get more and more corrupt.

Just remember the first order of business for any bureaucracy is to maintain the bureaucracy. Then keep you happy

 

[Fearless Tower]

There's only few unions really and only a couple good ones, SIU and AMO, I'm currently AMO. But it was a different development. It's not like each shipping line had a union like it is with the airlines, they were more or less representing port regions. Pretty much everything but the oilfield is union.

Perhaps it has changed, but when I was sailing deap sea through AMO, they were most definitely pro-management. The only officer union that seemed to care at all about their members was MM&P......but AMO was getting all the contracts right and left. It was a real catch 22.....you could sail AMO and have work but crappy pay and benefits......or you could go MM&P and sit around for months in a union hall looking for work......but once you got a job, it at least paid well.

 

[Henning]

What are you talking about ???? There's AA's Union and there's Southwest's Union. Everybody else is ALPA. That's about 55,000 pilots. So I don't see where we are incredibly fractured. But what good does any of it do if when you strike the Presidential Emergency Board forces you back to work ???

Serious? The union is screwing their Guys that bad on no wage security for experience in lateral mobility? Holy crap, what a sell out.

 

[wsuffa]

Actually, I think it is the East and West Unions that are fighting amongst themselves. I think Management is perfectly content to sit back and watch the infighting. As long as the unions themselves are fighting, Management doesn't really have to deal with other things.

My understanding is that management has gotten dragged in because they reached some kind of tentative agreement or agreement with the AA unions - while the US unions still have not agreed themselves.

'Twould be interesting indeed to watch. I really feel for AA if they get caught up in that disaster.

If our corporate deals were not with AA, it would be more interesting to watch for me.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

My understanding is that management has gotten dragged in because they reached some kind of tentative agreement or agreement with the AA unions - while the US unions still have not agreed themselves.

I saw something today that indicated that AA management had some sort of agreement with their pilots. Not sure USAir was involved. Could be wrong.

 

[wabower]

Big story on local news suggested that same outcome. It concluded with the union prez on camera, saying they thought a strong entity should emerge from all this, and that a merger would provide the best option.

I saw something today that indicated that AA management had some sort of agreement with their pilots. Not sure USAir was involved. Could be wrong.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Man, if AA merges with USS Airways it's gonna be an epic mistake. They haven't even completed the Am West merger completely this is just gonna be more fuel to the fire. If the Legacy USAIR guys didn't like the AM West guys they're REALLY not gonna work and play well with the AA guys. Wow, what a mess.

 

[denverpilot]

Reuters says the Union Board voted to send it to the pilots.

Board voted 13-2. Calls the counter offer they made to management (that was accepted), "industry standard".

13.5% equity stake to the pilots (roughly $100K per pilot).

Reuters also points out the pilots voted down a similar deal previously.

 

[wabower]

Pilots may feel more pressure due to lenders requirements that a deal be done quickly to preserve Union's percentage of ownership in new structure.

Reuters says the Union Board voted to send it to the pilots.

Board voted 13-2. Calls the counter offer they made to management (that was accepted), "industry standard".

13.5% equity stake to the pilots (roughly $100K per pilot).

Reuters also points out the pilots voted down a similar deal previously.

 

[Skip Miller]

NY Times article this morning reports that the AA pilots have agreed to a contract.

-Skip

 

[Art VanDelay]

Reuters says the Union Board voted to send it to the pilots.

Board voted 13-2. Calls the counter offer they made to management (that was accepted), "industry standard".

13.5% equity stake to the pilots (roughly $100K per pilot).

Reuters also points out the pilots voted down a similar deal previously.

WOW, ESOPs and/or stock are not good for pilot groups. One needs only look at the history of how poorly that played out over at UAL.

Why you ask ? - I'd be happy to explain - As an airline pilot there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I can do in my day to day tasks to make the price of the shares go UP ! No, really think about it before you jump in and start yelling at me.......

As a pilot we should ALWAYS strive to save fuel - that's just a basic given and it's something we do pretty much anyway all the time cause it's our butt that's up there too you know. So bringing up fuel saving is not really a valid point. When I come to work I am not only expected but pretty much REQUIRED to do my job PERFECTLY - unlike those in management I have to make EVERY decision right (sometimes with only milliseconds to decide) and if I don't - it's VERY apparent. Think about everything that is around me monitoring these lapses. No, really think about it - you guys fly little planes in a radar contact environment - now take it step further and put a voice recorder and device that monitors EVERY switch position in your plane. It's pretty hard not to fess up to something in that situation so you better do it PERFECT every freaking time - or else.

Now before you start jumping on me and yelling "Hey, you signed up for that" - yeah we did and we know it and I'm NOT complaining about it. What I am trying to do is illustrate a point - if the value of your company hinges on how safely and perfectly you do something that you're ALREADY doing anyway HOW DO YOU IMPROVE IT ??? You can't - just like YOU can only fly an instrument cross country so well in your piper spam-can. And people are not watching you anywhere near as closely

Now, that being said there are places where stock bonuses certainly MAKE SENSE and that is in upper and mid-level management and in certain front-line positions that HAVE DIRECT CUSTOMER CONTACT - like GATE AGENTS and FLIGHT ATTENDANTS.....think about it. Stock options make SENSE for them. Me - not so much. If you're gonna give a pilot stock options or stock make it IMMEDIATELY available for exercise - which from a business stand point we know ain't gonna happen.

So bottom-line, DON'T give me something that may THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN have absolutely no value by the time I can cash it in !!!!

 

[wsuffa]

WOW, ESOPs and/or stock are not good for pilot groups. One needs only look at the history of how poorly that played out over at UAL.

Why you ask ? - I'd be happy to explain - As an airline pilot there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I can do in my day to day tasks to make the price of the shares go UP ! No, really think about it before you jump in and start yelling at me.......
..............
So bottom-line, DON'T give me something that may THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN have absolutely no value by the time I can cash it in !!!!

I would beg to differ. Aside from your "day to day tasks", there are little things that can make the difference between a "crappy" experience for passengers and an "outstanding" experience. Most passengers "get" that "stuff happens" and a lot of it's beyond your control. It's how the problems are handled that makes one want to come back vs not travel your livery again.

Case in point: I was on an international flight on a certain carrier one night. We were delayed a bit to resolve a seat problem in the business cabin. The captain took that time to come around to each passenger in the business cabin, thank us for traveling with them, show the route on a chart, and ask if there were any questions. He then walked through the economy cabin to apologize for the delay and thank folks. By the time he was done, the repair was made and we were ready to go. Lemons made into lemonade.

I can't count the number of times that the crew merely steps into the front office, closed the door, and made a PA that the flight would be delayed for indefinite time. Huge difference.

Similarly, the captain of another flight that was delayed due to catering error asked the passengers if they'd rather wait 45 minutes for catering or make the 2 hour trip with whatever was left on board from prior flight.

I've long held the opinion that every employee of a company is in a "sales" position - because the way they treat customers will lead to (or kill) future business. That's especially true in a cut-throat competitive service business.

All that is my opinion and experience from running businesses and having my butt shaped by airline seats for about 4 million miles over the years. You may well feel differently.

Profitability and stock price are driven by the efforts of ALL. In other words, no group alone can ensure good results, but any one can cause failure (a variation of corporate paralysis of 'no one can say yes, but 30 people can say no').

 

[Everskyward]

I heard something on the frequency not too long ago which got my attention. Center offered American a shortcut. Everyone always wants a shortcut. But American replied, "We'll just stay on our flight planned route".

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I heard something on the frequency not too long ago which got my attention. Center offered American a shortcut. Everyone always wants a shortcut. But American replied, "We'll just stay on our flight planned route".

Well, in my world, we have this fancy new flight planning tool (cough) that is supposed to optimize route and altitude. We are strongly encouraged to stay on the flight planned route. I HAVE seen instances where a shortcut would have added time and fuel burn to the over all flight.