Should The FAA Be Reimbursed For Oshkosh Expenses?

Should EAA Reimburse FAA For ATC Costs During Air Venture at Oshkosh?

  • Yes, the additional cost should be paid by EAA.

    Votes: 34 33.0%

  • No, the fees are already paid through fuel taxes and federal taxes.

    Votes: 65 63.1%

  • What is Oshkosh?

    Votes: 4 3.9%
  • Total voters
    103
AdamZ said:
If the Huskers play a big game on any given saturday and draw a packed stadium ( which I suspect they would) should UN pay the town or the state for the extra police to direct traffic? Same would go for any large sports event or gathering.
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They should also pay for the flyovers by the national gaurd etc.
 
flibmeister said:
That's actually a low figure, compared to some. Events such as the Arlington and Copperstate Fly-In's, which use arrival procedures derived from the Fisk procedure that has been standard for decades at Oshkosh (and thus more controllers, due to the arrival controller function), are being quoted figures around $10,000-- per day.

It's not hard to see where those types of numbers come from: controller hours are charged at overtime rates, under the theory that a controller on TDY at a special event must be replaced at his home facility by a controller on OT. The controller average hourly rate is in the vicinity of $60 per hour, so the OT rate would be around $90 per hour, or $720 per 8 hour shift. Add on the travel and per diem charges, and the daily cost for each controller will approach $1000.

8 controllers per day would be $8000, then you have to add on the 25% administrative fee the feds are charging. Presto, $10000 for every day the tower is open.
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Dump the federal controllers and hire SERCO or another private ATC company..... The bill will 1/4 of the feds price..:yes:..

Ps... For some reason I always "assumed" the pink shirts" were donating their time with the EAA picking up their lodging and meals..:dunno::confused:
 
N801BH said:
Dump the federal controllers and hire SERCO or another private ATC company..... The bill will 1/4 of the feds price..:yes:..

Ps... For some reason I always "assumed" the pink shirts" were donating their time with the EAA picking up their lodging and meals..:dunno::confused:
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Many, if not most, of the controllers that work OSH and similar events would be happy to do it for for free. But the FAA's position is that controllers working in any non-pay status create insurmountable obstacles with regard to liability, so it has never been allowed.

Liability is also a major factor when considering using non-FAA controllers-- until recently, insurance coverage for such an operation was not available, at any price. That may be changing, however-- at least two companies I know of have been able to obtain such insurance for smaller events, although it's incredibly expensive and has relatively low limits. Even after paying those premiums, though, the price for a non-fed tower for a given event runs about 1/2 of what the feds would charge, so we'll likely be seeing more of them.
 
roncachamp said:
Why don't they pay for the extra police with the extra sales and room tax revenue provided by the big crowd drawn by that big game?
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Well the town collects that tax revenue and uses it to pay for the services rendered. In the Osh scenario there is, I'm sure, a lot of fuel sold all of which has a tax attached to it. Given the amount of fuel sold I'd guess the tax revenue is pretty high. They need controllers at osh due to the high volume of traffic, the high volume of traffic should result in high fuel sales and thus higher tax revenue, by asking EAA to kick in more the government is getting paid twice.

EAA would likely just pass that expense on to the attendees so then they would be paying twice.
 
AdamZ said:
Well the town collects that tax revenue and uses it to pay for the services rendered. In the Osh scenario there is, I'm sure, a lot of fuel sold all of which has a tax attached to it. Given the amount of fuel sold I'd guess the tax revenue is pretty high. They need controllers at osh due to the high volume of traffic, the high volume of traffic should result in high fuel sales and thus higher tax revenue, by asking EAA to kick in more the government is getting paid twice.

EAA would likely just pass that expense on to the attendees so then they would be paying twice.
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Federal tax alone is 19.4 cents a gallon for 100LL... Add to that the local /state taxes and I think it get up to 60 cents a gallon... I have heard through the grapevine that both Bassler and Orion get deliveries of 10,000 gallon tankers daily to fill their fuel farm.... So, doing some rough math leads to 20,000 a day X 7 days = 140,000 gallons for the Airventure week. 140,000X .60 = 84 grand in tax revenue... :rolleyes:... Just in fuel sales.. not including food , beverage, lodging and all the other tax revenue streams that benefit Oshkosh WI for that week.... :wink2:
 
I'm still curious. Does the FAA require that controllers be there, or does the EAA request them?
 
flibmeister said:
Liability is also a major factor when considering using non-FAA controllers-- until recently, insurance coverage for such an operation was not available, at any price. That may be changing, however-- at least two companies I know of have been able to obtain such insurance for smaller events, although it's incredibly expensive and has relatively low limits. Even after paying those premiums, though, the price for a non-fed tower for a given event runs about 1/2 of what the feds would charge, so we'll likely be seeing more of them.
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Non-FAA controllers are used at OSH during AirVenture.
 
Dean V said:
$10,000 is less than 2 cents from a $26 admission. Or in other words, chump change.
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They sell 500,000 tickets? I knew it was big but I didn't think they got half a million people to buy tickets.
 
AdamZ said:
Well the town collects that tax revenue and uses it to pay for the services rendered. In the Osh scenario there is, I'm sure, a lot of fuel sold all of which has a tax attached to it. Given the amount of fuel sold I'd guess the tax revenue is pretty high. They need controllers at osh due to the high volume of traffic, the high volume of traffic should result in high fuel sales and thus higher tax revenue, by asking EAA to kick in more the government is getting paid twice.
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So the answer to your question, "If the Huskers play a big game on any given saturday and draw a packed stadium ( which I suspect they would) should UN pay the town or the state for the extra police to direct traffic?", is "No."
 
Short list of things the US taxpayer gets to pay for:

Grain for Somalis;Ethiopians;most all of N Africa, housing for UN ambassador to Mali(2002/3), failed investments in green energy, lobster and Mtn Dew for welfare dads, mission to moon, national defense of Germany;Japan;Korea;Mexico;Italy;Poland;many more, Antarctic science station(~70%), National Ignition Facility(fusion non-energy non-bomb), NPR, pensions/benefits for already DEAD fed workers, political election parties, Pakistani mango farmers, AK bridge to nowhere, home energy credits to people that rent, Ag subsidies to Sunkist;ADM, Vietnam;Thailand;Laos forest development(it's a rain forest), F-35 dual engine program....

~$16 trillion in debt, but we have people right here on this board advising us that 'all is well', 'best prez ever', etc.
 
I agree with you on theory, but college football programs often make money for the college. Can still argue whether an institution of higher learning should be in the team sports business. Women's sports on the other hand never make a dime.:lol:
Dean V said:
Education is a benefit to society as a whole. If tax money is used to benefit the university education goals, I don't have a problem. If the tax money is being used for entertainment, the tax payer need not foot the bill. This includes concerts, sports events, air shows, political appearances and a host of other stuff the government should not be providing free services for unless the event is free entertainment for its citizens.

Using tax dollars to build pro sports stadiums is a product of the event subsidization mentality.
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Dean V said:
Education is a benefit to society as a whole. If tax money is used to benefit the university education goals, I don't have a problem. If the tax money is being used for entertainment, the tax payer need not foot the bill. This includes concerts, sports events, air shows, political appearances and a host of other stuff the government should not be providing free services for unless the event is free entertainment for its citizens.
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The issue is the cost of the extra police required for the big game. Is that a benefit to society as a whole?
 
Maybe we should have to state the reason we're flying somewhere, if it's deemed "entertainment" then we should be taxed accordingly.
 
bartmc said:
Maybe we should have to state the reason we're flying somewhere, if it's deemed "entertainment" then we should be taxed accordingly.
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That is the first step, the next step is to ban flying for entertainment.
 
Dean V said:
No, it benefits sports fans, a few resturant, tavern, and lodging owners who are all very vocal at maintaining the subsidy claiming the game has some universal benefit that it doesn't.
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You won't learn anything with that attitude.
 
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roncachamp said:
The issue is the cost of the extra police required for the big game. Is that a benefit to society as a whole?
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Don't forget the crimes after the games that go unprosecuted. Riots setting cars on fire, breaking glass, tearing stuff up all because the Lakers or whoever lost. It's a money maker for the few not much else.
 
Dean V said:
When you compare all the taxes paid to operate a car compared to operating a plane, aviation is a good deal.
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True that. Look at all the young whippersnappers choosing not to drive at huge numbers, the pundits blame computers. I blame the car oppression/tax industrial complex.
 
bnt83 said:
Don't forget the crimes after the games that go unprosecuted. Riots setting cars on fire, breaking glass, tearing stuff up all because the Lakers or whoever lost. It's a money maker for the few not much else.
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Some folks just don't know how to celebrate a championship. After the Packers won the Super Bowl in 1997, after a 29 year absence from the game, there were, IIRC, three arrests. That's for all of Brown County and that number is below the average daily count.
 
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