Should All Certified Airplane Default to the Experimental Category After 20 Years?

ahypnoz

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ahypnoz
In my opinion, after 20 Years all Certified Airplanes should be placed under the FAA experimental category. In reality that is what they are now, the original manufacturer usually does not want anything to do with these antique aircraft and/or they have stopped producing that make and model.

Some would argue that there is an increase in safety and consistency in build when one purchases a certified aircraft. I would argue that you are buying a 20 year aircraft and any real consistency in that make and model ended 10 years ago after they were originally built.

These legacy aircraft have fallen significantly behind on common safety measures, modern day electronics that the experimental aircraft all have. The FAA has tried to address this, but is falling further and further behind. I believe to further reduce the regulatory burden, cost and improve overall aircraft safety as well as to ease the FAA administration of their rules and regulations it would be an easy fix.

I also believe that all STC should be automatically placed in the public domain after 20 years. Just like the drug companies have 14 years before the generic drugs come out to make a profit, the same should be for the STC. Often the original STC holder and/or their estate has lost interest or have passed on and thus it becomes for all intentional purpose lost.

To just reduce the cost of experimental vs certified electronics, it would become an big safety bonus. The certified electronics are often dumbed down to make them less safe and useful.
An example from Garmin:

The Garmin G5 for experimental and light sport aircraft is loaded with capabilities. It can be used as a standalone primary or backup flight display and can toggle between two screens – one displaying attitude, airspeed, altitude, barometric pressure, turn coordination (plus ground speed and ground track if GPS equipped), the second displaying a horizontal situation indicator. The G5 for experimental can also integrate with other EFIS’ such as the G3X and G3X Touch flight displays, and has optional autopilot capability.

Where the G5 for experimental benefits from a broad range of capabilities, the G5 for certified was designed for two specific purposes – either as an attitude indicator or turn and bank coordinator (one G5 cannot replace both the attitude indicator and the turn coordinator in a traditional six-pack). In order to satisfy the FAA certification requirements, new software needed to be created for the G5 that does not include the HSI/Attitude display toggle capability that the experimental version boasts. Instead, since this unit was intended to replace the vacuum driven attitude indicators and turn coordinators, the software needed to be designed for those specific purposes.

This is just one example, but there are mechanical ones as well, led bulbs vs incandescent bulbs, etc.

What do you think the advantages of a 20 year old certified aircraft holds over an experimental aircraft?
 
Gosh, I hope not.

The FAA is trending towards the right direction in relaxing (frankly, just going back to the way they were in practice many years ago before the inspectors handbook went from a modest document to so long that there are cautions on the site that warn you not to try to print it) the approval process for certain parts for older certificated aircraft.
 
In my opinion, after 20 Years all Certified Airplanes should be placed under the FAA experimental category. In reality that is what they are now, the original manufacturer usually does not want anything to do with these antique aircraft and/or they have stopped producing that make and model.

Some would argue that there is an increase in safety and consistency in build when one purchases a certified aircraft. I would argue that you are buying a 20 year aircraft and any real consistency in that make and model ended 10 years ago after they were originally built.

These legacy aircraft have fallen significantly behind on common safety measures, modern day electronics that the experimental aircraft all have. The FAA has tried to address this, but is falling further and further behind. I believe to further reduce the regulatory burden, cost and improve overall aircraft safety as well as to ease the FAA administration of their rules and regulations it would be an easy fix.

I also believe that all STC should be automatically placed in the public domain after 20 years. Just like the drug companies have 14 years before the generic drugs come out to make a profit, the same should be for the STC. Often the original STC holder and/or their estate has lost interest or have passed on and thus it becomes for all intentional purpose lost.

To just reduce the cost of experimental vs certified electronics, it would become an big safety bonus. The certified electronics are often dumbed down to make them less safe and useful.
An example from Garmin:

The Garmin G5 for experimental and light sport aircraft is loaded with capabilities. It can be used as a standalone primary or backup flight display and can toggle between two screens – one displaying attitude, airspeed, altitude, barometric pressure, turn coordination (plus ground speed and ground track if GPS equipped), the second displaying a horizontal situation indicator. The G5 for experimental can also integrate with other EFIS’ such as the G3X and G3X Touch flight displays, and has optional autopilot capability.

Where the G5 for experimental benefits from a broad range of capabilities, the G5 for certified was designed for two specific purposes – either as an attitude indicator or turn and bank coordinator (one G5 cannot replace both the attitude indicator and the turn coordinator in a traditional six-pack). In order to satisfy the FAA certification requirements, new software needed to be created for the G5 that does not include the HSI/Attitude display toggle capability that the experimental version boasts. Instead, since this unit was intended to replace the vacuum driven attitude indicators and turn coordinators, the software needed to be designed for those specific purposes.

This is just one example, but there are mechanical ones as well, led bulbs vs incandescent bulbs, etc.

What do you think the advantages of a 20 year old certified aircraft holds over an experimental aircraft?
Do you realize that under your plan no airplane over 20 years old could carry passengers for hire? FedEx and UPS would have buy new fleets too.

Any money you’d save in avionics and maintenance would be quickly lost when airline fares and shipping costs suddenly double.

Not only that, but the majority of 135 operators and corporate flight departments would be out of business overnight.
 
In my opinion, after 20 Years all Certified Airplanes should be placed under the FAA experimental category. In reality that is what they are now, the original manufacturer usually does not want anything to do with these antique aircraft and/or they have stopped producing that make and model.
....
These legacy aircraft have fallen significantly behind on common safety measures, modern day electronics that the experimental aircraft all
have. ...


Uhh, what are your qualifications as a pilot, are you even a pilot?

Because as a pilot you do know the number one produced plane of all time, and number one GA plane, the C172 is FAR from a discontinued orphan airframe, I could also mention the PA28, King air, etc.

Also many of the older airframes are quite a bit more robust than some of the new stuff, and when it comes to backcountry planes can land off field and make what would be a major emergency into a precautionary off field landing.

Which leads to your "opinion" which would take out most all the real backcountry planes, I'm sure the folks in AK and Canada would love to hear your poorly informed opinion of how horrible their DHC2/3 C185 PA18, etc are.

You also might want to take a look at places like Kenmore air and
Beegles, These planes are often turning out BETTER than new.




I also believe that all STC should be automatically placed in the public domain after 20 years.

Are you a communist or socialist (aka commie lite)?




What do you think the advantages of a 20 year old certified aircraft holds over an experimental aircraft?

Well for those of us who believe in American values and are capitalists, the fact that you can MAKE MONEY with them.

We are not all fat cat government types, the fact that I can work my plane brings a great deal of value for me, even though I don't work the plane full time, it pays for its own MX and upgrades with the part time work that ends up falling in my lap.
 
Uhh, what are your qualifications as a pilot, are you even a pilot?

Because as a pilot you do know the number one produced plane of all time, and number one GA plane, the C172 is FAR from a discontinued orphan airframe, I could also mention the PA28, King air, etc.
Beat me too it.
 
I don't understand why you guys pooped all over a thoughtful, rational proposal. With some modifications it's got a lot of merit.

Maybe it's not 20 years, maybe it's longer (peak production of pistons ended 40 almost years ago.)

Airplanes on 135 or 121 certs can be excluded, for example.

Parts that can only be obtained from the airplane manufacturer (if it's available at all) at insane prices are a major killer of aircraft and GA in general.

  • Why does it cost $15000 for a IFR approach "certified" GPS in my "certified" airplane but a fraction of that for an "experimental?
  • Why does it cost hundreds for an alternator when the exact same article can be obtained from Advanced Auto Parts for $50?
 
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under what experimental section would you place it. any experimental except EAB, has very strict operating limitations. such as program letters, flight areas and no passengers. it would take a entire new section on experimental to even consider it.

I do like the idea of public domain on STC's after a certain time frame. there are a lot of good STC's that have died with the original owner and also some that are stupid expensive just for a simple STC.

I think the FAA is moving in the right direction as to avionics, but just as any government agency the pace is very slow.

bob
 
Make it optional. Like owner maintained in Canada. Also like them once you went owner maintained going back would be a nightmare. But it would be a great thing for a lot of older small planes. Think J-3, t-crates, champs and 120/140’s etc.

Not mandatory but optional.


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I don't understand why you guys pooped all over a thoughtful, rational proposal. With some modifications it's got a lot of merit.

Maybe it's not 20 years, maybe it's longer (peak production of pistons ended 40 almost years ago.)

Airplanes on 135 or 121 certs can be excluded, for example.

Parts that can only be obtained from the airplane manufacturer (if it's available at all) at insane prices are a major killer of aircraft and GA in general.

  • Why does it cost $15000 for a IFR approach "certified" GPS in my "certified" airplane but a fraction of that for an "experimental?
  • Why does it cost hundreds for an alternator when the exact same article can be obtained from Advances Auto Parts for $50?

an IFR approach certified GPS still costs 15000 in an experimental. both aircraft must have a TSO'ed unit. the only cost savings is that the builder can install it in an experimental.

bob
 
I think the OP identifies one of many problems about the current structure of the FAA and the FARs, but his resolution is flawed. I've always been of the opinion that the FAA does not belong in private aviation at all. (Part 91) I keep my plane safe to fly, and keep myself competent and safe as an aviator because I don't wish to die, kill anyone else, or be sued for all I'm worth. I believe most aviators and/or aircraft owners have similar motivations.

I think we need the FAA and the FARs, but only to provide common rules by which to certify aviators, regulate the airspace, and provide operating regulations to ensure safe operations when sharing the skies with one another. But beyond that, they are not needed. They belong in commercial operations without a doubt, as profit is a dangerous enemy to safety, as has been demonstrated many times throughout history. But Part 91 ops? Forget it.

Automobile manufacturers only have to prove that the vehicles they design, build, and sell are safe to operate. Once sold, it becomes the owner's responsibility to maintain and operate them in a safe manner. And we are required to have insurance, so that if we screw up, the other guy is financially covered. Requiring private, non-commercial aviators/owners to have annual airworthiness inspections that cost thousands of dollars is counter-productive, as it just takes money away from routine maintenance and upgrades, both of which would likely do far more for the safety of that aircraft than paying some guy to tear it apart and inspect it each year. The manufacturers of aircraft have their recommendations of what should be checked, how often it should be checked, and what it should be checked for. If an aircraft owner/operator fails to maintain his aircraft in a safe fashion, and a post-incident investigation reveals that to be the cause, the owner/operator would be liable for damages to those negatively affected. Just like with your private vehicle.

It makes me angry when I think of all the improvements that could easily, and inexpensively be made to my aircraft, were the FAA not so heavily involved in the process. Imagine how much more efficient and inexpensive inspecting every nook and cranny of your aircraft would be, if the FAA wasn't involved? Imagine the number of new aircraft types there would be, and how much less expensive they would be? Imagine how many more new pilots there would be, with less expensive planes to own and fly? There goes your pilot shortage.

The FAA is literally the idiot sawing away at the tree branch he is sitting on, between himself and the tree.
 
an IFR approach certified GPS still costs 15000 in an experimental. both aircraft must have a TSO'ed unit. the only cost savings is that the builder can install it in an experimental.

bob
That's several thousands of dollars.
 
Make it optional. Like owner maintained in Canada. Also like them once you went owner maintained going back would be a nightmare. But it would be a great thing for a lot of older small planes. Think J-3, t-crates, champs and 120/140’s etc.

Not mandatory but optional.


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It's already optional.
 
Which is a horrible trade for making a plane no longer able to earn a single dollar
How many spamcans in the fleet are "earners"?

Rentals don't have to go under the proposal.
 
How many spamcans in the fleet are "earners"?

Rentals don't have to go under the proposal.

Some are some arnt.

However if I was going to pay you in a currency, both in the same amount of $20,000;

One could be invested, spent, saved however you deemed

The other more "regulated" so it couldn't be as easily invested to make more money

Which would you pick?


Go look at the value of the Canadian planes, one that's standard airworthiness the other that's rebranded under the owner mx.

Forcing people to make their planes less useful and worth less is a BS commie move all day every day.

That said, I do think people should have the choice to more easily move their GA planes to the experimental side of the house.
 
Can I convert my traveler to Exp??????

I would have the most badass panel!
 
The “Primary Category” was proposed several years ago. It proposed allowing Pt 91 aircraft to revert to something very close to E-AB rules, with means of moving back from Primary to Standard Category. When the new Part 23 rewrite came out, it had disappeared. Doubtful it will happen anytime soon.


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The "owner maintained" category has some merit. To go back to "standard airworthiness" would require a conformity inspection similar to importation or placing an AC on a 135 cert.

A "less than full" A&P is also an idea. Not many people are going to dedicate 2 years to go to A&P school unless their personal circumstance is such that permits the mentoring pathway. You could have a "Private A&P" similar to the way pilot certificates work...not valid for "holding out to the public" or for compensation.
 
The part 23 rewrite was very disappointing,to most pilots with older planes. But that’s the govt get your expectations high,then lower the beam.
 
Some are some arnt.

However if I was going to pay you in a currency, both in the same amount of $20,000;

One could be invested, spent, saved however you deemed

The other more "regulated" so it couldn't be as easily invested to make more money

Which would you pick?


Go look at the value of the Canadian planes, one that's standard airworthiness the other that's rebranded under the owner mx.

Forcing people to make their planes less useful and worth less is a BS commie move all day every day.

That said, I do think people should have the choice to more easily move their GA planes to the experimental side of the house.
Who said any of this is to be "forced"?

Why is this "earnings" thing even an issue? Most owner/op planes are for personal transportation, not for hire.
 
The part 23 rewrite was very disappointing,to most pilots with older planes. But that’s the govt get your expectations high,then lower the beam.
What exactly has 23 done for any of us? Avionics that should cost $1000 is still 10x.
 
Make it optional. Like owner maintained in Canada. Also like them once you went owner maintained going back would be a nightmare. But it would be a great thing for a lot of older small planes. Think J-3, t-crates, champs and 120/140’s etc.

Not mandatory but optional.
That makes sense.
 
I can never understand why experimental stuff if less expensive, they are flying in the same airspace as me. But they can put a G3x and call it good and I have to four times for less features and call it certificated


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I talked to a guy at EAA a while back and he said the biggest obstacle to an American version of the owner maintained category was airplane owners and the difficulty going back to certified? Maybe we should try again if there is enough support?


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The primary flaw with the suggestions offered by the OP is that it is too practical. Like a few years back when someone had the nerve to suggest that the world was not flat, but at the same time suggested that the earth was the center of the universe. Arbitrarily converting older aircraft to the experimental category makes no sense for reasons commented above. Allowing aircraft owners to benefits from technology improvements without unnecessary burden does make sense. What is often overlooked when promoting practical ideas are the unintended consequences. Laws and regulations, as disgusting as many are, are there to protect the lowest common denominator in any domain. The people I am referring to in the aviation world will never join POA or engage in an intelligent conversation about industry policies. As much as I detest the overreach of our government in virtually every aspect of our lives, the FAA is really better than most other agencies and we can only hope that the progress in relaxing certification standards for avionics and flight safety systems will continue. If you want a good cause to get behind consider tort reform. Remember it was the era of frivolous litigation that basically destroyed general aviation. Without the framework of regulations imposed by the FAA (intended to protect both the manufacturers and the aircraft owners) the lawyers would pound the final nail in the coffin of GA. This is one example of an "unintended consequence".
 
[Enters the contrarian to the sound of trumpets blaring]

On the other hand... if an E-AB exhibits some length of service life it should be ELIGIBLE, but not required, to change it's designation to allow commercial operations as equipped.

So, if phase 1 testing is x hours, phase 2 testing would be y hours, and then if you want to do commercial ops you can do them in phase 3 after x+y hours.
Any changes would be evaluated to see which phase you revert to, and for what time period.

I love it, as a concept, but realistically... c'mon... isn't going to happen. Nothing more than transition training and exhibitions are likely to be approved.

I won't be able to retire and do express delivery flights in the RV to pay for dog food, top ramen, and miller lite to live on :(
 
Once again, primary non-commercial was the answer to this question. It was included into legislation, it was signed by POTUS 44, and the FAA proceeded to ghost it when the implementation of the legislation's mandate (part 23 re-write) came to pass, and they stonewalled Congress' timeline even doing so (predictable). IOW, it's over for most of us over the age of 20. No time to wait for another decade to have this brought back up just to be shut down by the FAA again. Our choices are cut corners where we can, go EXAB if we can, or quit.

I can never understand why experimental stuff if less expensive, they are flying in the same airspace as me. But they can put a G3x and call it good and I have to four times for less features and call it certificated

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As has been highlighted many times before on here, the reason good bad or indifferent, is that you're paying a tax for the privilege of being given the allowance to utilize your airplane for revenue. We all understand how irrelevant and gratuitous that allowance is for predominant demographic we belong to, but that's your answer. Is it kabuki from a technological or even rational standpoint (aka fly the same airways over the same innocent public under two standards)? Of course. But we live in the world of what things are, not what things should be. My point to you is that it is all those things, but a conspiracy theory it is not. As such, it's not complicated to identify the reasons we get taxed the way EXAB doesn't.

I talked to a guy at EAA a while back and he said the biggest obstacle to an American version of the owner maintained category was airplane owners and the difficulty going back to certified? Maybe we should try again if there is enough support?


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What a load. The only people who know why primary non-commercial got shot in the back of the head are the self-important lifer civil servants within the FAA, and whoever they took that marching order from. It was certainly not aircraft owners, who overwhelmingly supported the category.
The primary flaw with the suggestions offered by the OP is that it is too practical. Like a few years back when someone had the nerve to suggest that the world was not flat, but at the same time suggested that the earth was the center of the universe. Arbitrarily converting older aircraft to the experimental category makes no sense for reasons commented above. Allowing aircraft owners to benefits from technology improvements without unnecessary burden does make sense. What is often overlooked when promoting practical ideas are the unintended consequences. Laws and regulations, as disgusting as many are, are there to protect the lowest common denominator in any domain. The people I am referring to in the aviation world will never join POA or engage in an intelligent conversation about industry policies. As much as I detest the overreach of our government in virtually every aspect of our lives, the FAA is really better than most other agencies and we can only hope that the progress in relaxing certification standards for avionics and flight safety systems will continue. If you want a good cause to get behind consider tort reform. Remember it was the era of frivolous litigation that basically destroyed general aviation. Without the framework of regulations imposed by the FAA (intended to protect both the manufacturers and the aircraft owners) the lawyers would pound the final nail in the coffin of GA. This is one example of an "unintended consequence".

Honest question, why is it that tort reform is a third rail in this Country again?
 
I can never understand why experimental stuff if less expensive, they are flying in the same airspace as me. But they can put a G3x and call it good and I have to four times for less features and call it certificated
The laws of physics vary according to the color of the airworthiness certificate. Duh.
 
I've owned several certificated airplanes. One of the best features of an older plane is the standard of condition and maintenance is very well established and the aircraft's history should be well documented. That standardization is the foundation for maintaining aircraft value and safety.

I've built a certificated Cub from the ground up using legal replacement parts including the airframe. Now I'm building an experimental Cub. My new Cub is a better airplane. That isn't true of all experimental but it is true of mine. I can't imagine why I'd ever want to go back to certificated!
 
The Prehistoric Aircraft Association (Cessna, Piper, etc, etc) would never let it happen.
Instead of paying $136.00 + tax and shipping for a cork and wire fuel float for a Cub, you could build one for about 75 cents.
Fill in your own ridiculously expensive approved part.
 
The Prehistoric Aircraft Association (Cessna, Piper, etc, etc) would never let it happen.
Instead of paying $136.00 + tax and shipping for a cork and wire fuel float for a Cub, you could build one for about 75 cents.
Fill in your own ridiculously expensive approved part.
That, and the fact that owners pay for ADs out of their pockets, with no assistance or responsibility on the part of the OEM (who are frequently the instigators of an AD, what a coincidence) , are primary drivers of the unaffordabilty of GA.
 
It is already the case that Part 135 and 121 operators have different standards for maintenance than "part 91" operators. There's no need to make things "experimental" just as pointed out to allow operation within the original spirit of the regulations rather than the bureaucratic nightmare that the process has evolved into.
 
Some would argue that there is an increase in safety and consistency in build when one purchases a certified aircraft. I would argue that you are buying a 20 year aircraft and any real consistency in that make and model ended 10 years ago after they were originally built.



The FAA defines airworthiness in far 3.5 as, in the approved configuration and maintained in a safe condition (paraphrased). If an airplane thats 20 years old is not airworthy, its because it was not maintained properly or it was illegally modified. The physical laws of nature have not changed in 20 years. Any aspect of that aircraft that does not meet design specification can be brought up to specification, and life limited parts can be replaced.
 
In my opinion, after 20 Years all Certified Airplanes should be placed under the FAA experimental category. In reality that is what they are now, the original manufacturer usually does not want anything to do with these antique aircraft and/or they have stopped producing that make and model.
I’m afraid your suggestion/opinion is a bit misguided on a number of levels.

A better avenue to pursue would be to push for new airworthiness classification similar to Transport Canada’s Owner Maintenance Classification as mentioned above. It doesn’t change the aircraft type design certification like your suggestion and allows owners to maintain their own TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.

Or you could attend classes and obtain your A&P/IA.

As for the FAA not moving forward… they have. Just look at LSA aircraft. Here’s a type of aircraft that you can buy or build, fly it on your drivers license, and after attending the necessary classes you can maintain not only your LSA but maintain other LSAs as well. And they come with all the neat electronic gizmos you are looking for.

On STCs, you do not need to buy an STC to install a particular product. You currently have the ability to take the same equipment and obtain your own approval to install it in your aircraft. You also have the legal ability to install anything you want in your aircraft provided you follow the appropriate regulatory method to install it.

What do you think the advantages of a 20 year old certified aircraft holds over an experimental aircraft?
Everything in my opinion. Would you buy a house that was not built/maintained to any building codes?
 
The “Primary Category” was proposed several years ago.
it had disappeared
If you're talking about the Type Certification--Primary Category it's in the same place since it came out in the early '90s. Look in Part 21 as Part 23 is for Normal Category aircraft only. Primary Category was an optional method but most companies pursued Normal Category certification instead. The EAA and AOPA were heavily involved in it as it was the first attempt at a "Sport Pilot" class like the current LSA.
 
Who said any of this is to be "forced"?

Why is this "earnings" thing even an issue? Most owner/op planes are for personal transportation, not for hire.

The OP
 
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