Should a CFI be allowed to teach CFII?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by mscard88, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,474
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I understand what you are saying. What I’m saying is that really CFI is what is vanishing, and you’re changing the name of CFII to CFI.

    You aren’t taking away CFII because if you did, there would be no one to teach IR. You’re taking away CFI - there will be no one that can not teach IR.
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,474
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    To illustrate. You aren’t saying that all current CFIs should be allowed to teach IR, right? They have to complete the “II” part of their training. Meaning they arent really CFIs they are CFIIs, but you’re renaming them CFIs.
     
  3. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Why get wrapped around the axle about what they'd be called if you're not calling them what they are to start with?
     
  4. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,991
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I was going to mention the same thing. There really is no such thing as a "CFII" in the first place, just a flight instructor certificate with an instrument airplane (or helicopter, or whatever) rating on it.

    It's a minor thing I realize, but it bothers me when I see CFIs sign things off as a CFII or MEI since their flight instructor certificate number contains neither.
     
  5. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Again, only the airplane and powered lift categories and the rotorcraft-helicopter category-class combination have instrument ratings (either pilot or instructor). Are you intending that the instrument be bundled with these category ratings?
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    The "CFII" in the signature line doesn't bother me so much...it makes life easier for the examiner, which is always good. ;)
     
  7. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,474
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I just made a simple observation about a random idea. Not sure why it's such a big deal.
     
  8. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,991
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    This is what Mark was suggesting. I can see where this might be acceptable for an airplane single engine or multiengine instructor rating as long as the applicant's instrument knowledge and ability to teach it was tested, but it may not transfer into other categories well. I'm not a helicopter guy but I don't believe having an instrument rating is a requirement to be a helicopter CFI, so bundling the helicopter CFI and CFII together might not be such a good idea.
     
  9. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    How could it possibly help the examiner? The "certificate type" isn't a required entry in the log entry. The only reason CFI is obliged to be there is that it's part of the certificate NUMBER which is required to be there. Even the fact that someone is an MEI or a II doesn't guarantee they were properly authorized to give the instruction.
     
  10. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    So how does an examiner determine who's qualified to give the instruction and when they acquired that particular qualification? Or, for that matter, that somebody isn't giving instruction using a fake or stolen certificate number?
     
  11. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,991
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Isn't IACRA a gatekeeper in this sense? I'm pretty sure it won't allow an instructor to endorse an applicant for a checkride unless the instructor is qualified to do so. Of course, there are loopholes to work around that (paper 8710) but I assume someone manually checks the instructor's qualifications at some point, and their eligibility to endorse the applicant.

    I've never signed off anyone for any instrument or multi rating with anything other than my official flight instructor certificate number, ending in CFI. No questions have ever been asked, but the examiners around here probably have a fairly good idea what my qualifications are too.
     
  12. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,530
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Another mental masturbation thread:)

    [​IMG]
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  13. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If he cares to know, he'll have to look up the names and certificate numbers in the FAA's database. Just reinforces my point that putting a mischaracterization of the certificate type in the entry doesn't help things.
     
  14. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    That would work if you're the only instructor who provided the required instruction, and you didn't become an "authorized" instructor just in time to do the IACRA signoff. But that's a pretty narrow area that IACRA protects.

    Which, of course assumes that IACRA actually filters that...there are enough holes in IACRA that I wouldn't bet that heavily on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    So he'd see that my instructor certificate was issued in February of 2016 for instruction that I gave in, say, 2012 that the applicant is using for the rating?

    I'd trust some egomaniac's "CFII" sig line first.
     
  16. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,194
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    Ditch the CFI and CFII thing and just go IP (instructor pilot)like the military uses and all IP's can teach PPL, COM, IR. Done! haha And to answer the question from earlier, when a Military IP graduates PIT training they are certified to teach all, instrument is not an add one with the mil.
     
  17. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,951
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dera
    One example that I can think of is when you're getting your instrument rating and you use the 3 hours of instrument flying you did for your private as part of the 15 hours required for that rating. If those 3 hours for your private were with an CFII, they count towards the 15 hours. If you got your private from a "vanilla" CFI, then you still need 15 hours of instruction. That way signing those 3 hours as "CFII" would make it easier, in a way.
     
  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Nope, just because you got it from a CFII for your private doesn't make it "instrument instruction." I'd be real reticent to count that time based solely on an extra I in your logbook.
     
  19. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I
    I disagree...the requirements for Private Pilot are
    The requirements for an instrument rating include
    Sounds like it counts toward the instrument rating to me, assuming it's properly documented in the logbook.
     
  20. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,905
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    I have started signing instrument instruction like "1234567CFI (CFII)" so hopefully both sides are happy.

    You would think so, but I believe there is a chief counsel letter saying the three hours don't count towards the 15 no matter what.
     
  21. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    22,845
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I've always used what's on the certificate, 123456789CFI. Don't see the harm doing what you suggest though.
     
  22. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Any chance you could find that?
     
  23. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,905
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
  25. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,498
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    No. I like it how it currently exists. No reason to change
     
  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Especially considering a CFII might teach a CFI under the PTS, but would never teach a Private Pilot under the PTS, since that’s the ACS now. ;) ;) ;)

    (I’m just being a smartass.)

    And no, I don’t care about the thread topic at all.

    Take the checkrides, jump through the hoops, it’s all the same stuff. DPE makes more money with two rides, so I doubt you’ll see FAA making any changes to it anytime soon. That or ride price will double and it’ll take more than a day.

    Which puts it squarely in the “whatever” category for me. One ride, two rides, doesn’t matter.

    There’s enough changes going on with the Private and Commercial ACS, that nobody really needs any more changes to track right now.

    They’re too busy redefining slow flight into a hearing test, to be mucking around with the CFI stuff.

    Can’t wait to see what a CFI ACS looks like. 200 pages, perhaps... having a committee build that document will result in utter insanity.
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  27. K Bar

    K Bar Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    K Bar
    DMS seems to be the only one that gets it.
     
  28. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    The John Lynch FAQ is bull poop. It's so full of Lynch's own personal bias that has no bearing on reality. The FAA was quick to discredit the whole thing. You should not rely on it for any purpose whatsoever.
     
    denverpilot and dmspilot like this.
  29. oregonboy109

    oregonboy109 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    646
    Location:
    The Forks
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    oregonboy109
    The idea kinda sounds like a solution in search of a problem imo.
     
  30. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    22,845
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    No, not the intention at all. Just throwing it out there for discussion. It's not gonna happen, so relax. Been a CFII since '78, and I think it should just be a CFI period, capable and qualified to teach instrument students that's all I'm saying. Looks like you're a CFI, do you feel you could teach an instrument student right now? Be honest now.
     
  31. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    The sad part is, some percentage of the Chief Counsel letters could be described in the same way. And they’re less well organized and harder to find topics in. LOL. :)
     
  32. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,369
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    The Chief Counsel letters have the force of law. Lynch was just loopy (I've had some professional interaction with him) and the FAA never ascribed any meaning to his self-distributed FAQ.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  33. oregonboy109

    oregonboy109 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    646
    Location:
    The Forks
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    oregonboy109
    I think it would add additional training for a CFI cert that many wouldn't use and may decrease the number of CFI applicants. I think I could probably do an ok job teaching an instrument student if I had to. Doing CFII in a few weeks anyway though. Point is, the way it is now allows people who want the CFII to do the extra training and get it but doesn't force people who only want to teach private/commercial courses to get CFII training they'll never use.
     
  34. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,537
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    It used to be that the 1st CFI certificate one could obtain was CFI-I.

    That is what I did, (And was only a private pilot) and got a CFI-A, years later.
     
  35. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    48,653
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Understand completely. My point was that you’d think with those letters being “the force of law”, FAA might be able to hire someone in all of their people somewhere who could write a decent table of contents for the silly things, instead of just slapping them up on a website and saying “go fish”.
     
    mscard88 likes this.