Short Story: What would you do- W&B decision

Hilarious-

Yes, I made up the entire story based on something I was wondering about and just thought I'd get some other ideas about the situation...wanted to know what an experienced aviator would do...considering that I'm just a rookie who's (fingers crossed) completing his PP-ASEL checkride this afternoon.

Congratulations on getting to your check ride, you will do just fine.

Relax, have a few beers, smoke a doobie, try not to drool. :yikes:

John
 
don't ship the 100 lbs. take it to the local goodwill. next time your wife won't pack or buy as much. or there won't be a next time, in which case you won't have any issues with loading the plane up with fuel and making the trip home.


Yeah, I had a tough time figuring out how to integrate that into the story...all the extra crap is your stuff that you NEED, so you're not parting with it.
 
Out here, the basic price, just to open things up then put em back together is around $1,200.00, it goes up from there with each thing they fix.

My next annual in in August. My business has been slow, kinda worried about it.

The story is still bogus, you just got lucky one year.

John

3 of the 4 years I had my Cherokee the annual was under $1000.
 
Hilarious-

Yes, I made up the entire story based on something I was wondering about and just thought I'd get some other ideas about the situation...wanted to know what an experienced aviator would do...considering that I'm just a rookie who's (fingers crossed) completing his PP-ASEL checkride this afternoon.

That's easy. Bad weather, marginal fuel = No-go.

Rent a car if you have to get back. Happens all the time.

Hertz does one way rentals - that way you don't have to pay for a rental car sitting in your driveway for a week or so until you can go back and get the airplane.
 
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Yeah, I had a tough time figuring out how to integrate that into the story...all the extra crap is your stuff that you NEED, so you're not parting with it.

Wrong answer. There is absolutely no way you NEED any of the crap you bought on vacation. Here's what I NEED when I go on a trip: Cash, check, credit card, certificates, photo ID. If I have to, I can buy anything I need when I get there.
 
Wrong answer. There is absolutely no way you NEED any of the crap you bought on vacation. Here's what I NEED when I go on a trip: Cash, check, credit card, certificates, photo ID. If I have to, I can buy anything I need when I get there.

If the Sidnaw Mini-Mart doesn't have it, I don't NEED it!
 
Yeah, I had a tough time figuring out how to integrate that into the story...all the extra crap is your stuff that you NEED, so you're not parting with it.

sorry, if your wife bought it on vacation you don't need it.
 
Okay, here's what I would do (looking for a 'that's a dumb idea' or 'I should have thought of that' type response:

If you have other solutions, I'd like to hear them...

Considering that I have plenty of runway and the A/C has always been a reliable performer, I would takeoff 100LBS overgross by adding the fuel. Considering that most limitations can be safely stretched by 150% (I saw this in the C172 POH). Not only can I do this safely, but I can do this legally. How you ask?

TITLE 14 - AERONAUTICS AND SPACE

CHAPTER I - FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

SUBCHAPTER C - AIRCRAFT

PART 21 - CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND PARTS

subpart h - AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATES

21.197 - Special flight permits.

Link to an amendment published at 71 FR 536, Jan. 4, 2006.

(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes: (1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs, alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a point of storage.

(2) Delivering or exporting the aircraft.

(3) Production flight testing new production aircraft.

(4) Evacuating aircraft from areas of impending danger.

(5) Conducting customer demonstration flights in new production aircraft that have satisfactorily completed production flight tests.

(b) A special flight permit may also be issued to authorize the operation of an aircraft at a weight in excess of its maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the normal range over water, or over land areas where adequate landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available. The excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is limited to the additional fuel, fuel-carrying facilities, and navigation equipment necessary for the flight.

(c) Upon application, as prescribed in 121.79 and 135.17 of this chapter, a special flight permit with a continuing authorization may be issued for aircraft that may not meet applicable airworthiness requirements but are capable of safe flight for the purpose of flying aircraft to a base where maintenance or alterations are to be performed.

The permit issued under this paragraph is an authorization, including conditions and limitations for flight, which is set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications. The permit issued under this paragraph may be issued to (1) Certificate holders authorized to conduct operations under Part 121 of this chapter; or (2) Certificate holders authorized to conduct operations under Part 135 for those aircraft they operate and maintain under a continuous airworthiness maintenance program prescribed by 135.411 (a)(2) or (b) of that part.

The permit issued under this paragraph is an authorization, including any conditions and limitations for flight, which is set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.

(3) Management specification holders authorized to conduct operations under part 91, subpart K, for those aircraft they operate and maintain under a continuous airworthiness maintenance program prescribed by 91.1411 of this part.

[Doc. No. 5085, 29 FR 14570, Oct. 24, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 2121, 33 FR 6859, May 7, 1968; Amdt. 2151, 45 FR 60170, Sept. 11, 1980; Amdt. 2154, 46 FR 37878, July 23, 1981; Amdt. 2179, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 2184, 68 FR 54559, Sept. 17, 2003]


Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/21-special-flight-permits-19559096#ixzz1M9VLVmdQ
 
you will not get special flight permit from the fsdo that will allow you to take your wife and 100 lbs of her junk along with you. special flight permits ("ferry permits") are issued for one time deviations, usually when a plane needs transported for maintenacne. typically they are restricted to day vfr no passengers no flight over congested areas.
 
you read the reg to say that you can operate over gross on a special flight permit for a flight over water or a flight where you need the extra gas because there is nowhere along the route to stop for gas. that is correct. this is not your scenario though. there are plenty of places to stop for gas along your route.

a special flight permit has to be issued by the fsdo. if you call the fsdo and say "my wife bought too much stuff on vacation and my only possible fuel stop is weathered in, can i get a ferry permit to make the flight?" they will hopefully hang up before they start laughing. It is not the fsdo's responsibility to make sure you get home from your vacation on time.
 
Hilarious-

Yes, I made up the entire story based on something I was wondering about and just thought I'd get some other ideas about the situation...wanted to know what an experienced aviator would do...considering that I'm just a rookie who's (fingers crossed) completing his PP-ASEL checkride this afternoon.

I have a question. If you are taking your ASEL check ride this afternoon, what exactly are you doing playing on the computer with the likes of us?

Shouldn't you be working on your cross country weather and such? Perhaps your real weight and balance issues?

John
 
Ok, here's the follow on to your story.....by the time you find an FAA guy who will actually issue you a special flight permit, the storm passes over the field and your plane is found the next day upside down on top of another one.
 
Out here, the basic price, just to open things up then put em back together is around $1,200.00, it goes up from there with each thing they fix.

My next annual in in August. My business has been slow, kinda worried about it.

The story is still bogus, you just got lucky one year.

John
John,

Who does your annuals?
$1200 base seems a little high for a PA28, but I haven't shopped around much here in SD yet. My plane is currently getting the annual done at CNO.

Andrew
 
21.197(b) would be authorized for me fitting the Comanche with in cabin fuel tanks and needing all that fuel to fly to Hawaii from the mainland. Not because your dumbass wife bought a bunch of crap on vacation.
 
Not because your dumbass wife bought a bunch of crap on vacation.

Way harsh, you should lighten up. Part of the purpose of vacations is so your significant other can buy stuff. That's why you purposely underload on the way out, if you know what's good for you.

Last trip I did with the Mrs. was in the convertible (we were going to fly wherever the rain wasn't, but it was right over us). My convertible doesn't even have a trunk. Saved me a bunch of money.
 
Way harsh, you should lighten up. Part of the purpose of vacations is so your significant other can buy stuff. That's why you purposely underload on the way out, if you know what's good for you.

Last trip I did with the Mrs. was in the convertible (we were going to fly wherever the rain wasn't, but it was right over us). My convertible doesn't even have a trunk. Saved me a bunch of money.

I don't think so. Lets say Jay does magically get the permit to fly over gross. Does he know how the plane is going to handle at that 100# over gross? No, he doesn't. While 100 over gross probably isn't going to make that big of an impact on a 4000# or 5000# MGW airplane.(2-2.5% overage) On a 2000# aircraft, you are looking at 5%. Or even worse, load up a 152 100# over and the result may be more harsh than what I've written.

If you are going to fly overgross, the permit does not change the physics of the situation.
 
I don't think so. Lets say Jay does magically get the permit to fly over gross. Does he know how the plane is going to handle at that 100# over gross? No, he doesn't. While 100 over gross probably isn't going to make that big of an impact on a 4000# or 5000# MGW airplane.(2-2.5% overage) On a 2000# aircraft, you are looking at 5%. Or even worse, load up a 152 100# over and the result may be more harsh than what I've written.

If you are going to fly overgross, the permit does not change the physics of the situation.

Oh, you've totally misread my intentions. No, Jay should not at any time fly over gross. Never ever, for any reason. I am quite serious. Having been burned by this issue (at your strip no less) I think he should find a way to fly well under gross, perhaps by shipping luggage or flying with limited fuel and making more stops. That was my solution to my last flight to Oshkosh, and I will likely to it again.

No, my issue was with you calling Jay's wife a dumbass for shopping while on holiday. Buying a bunch of stuff on holiday does not make Jay's wife a dumbass. It makes her female. That's what girls do on holiday.

Trying to schlep it all in a Skyhawk would make Jay a dumbass, but no doubt this whole thing is just hypothetical.
 
Oh, you've totally misread my intentions. No, Jay should not at any time fly over gross. Never ever, for any reason. I am quite serious. Having been burned by this issue (at your strip no less) I think he should find a way to fly well under gross, perhaps by shipping luggage or flying with limited fuel and making more stops. That was my solution to my last flight to Oshkosh, and I will likely to it again.

No, my issue was with you calling Jay's wife a dumbass for shopping while on holiday. Buying a bunch of stuff on holiday does not make Jay's wife a dumbass. It makes her female. That's what girls do on holiday.

Trying to schlep it all in a Skyhawk would make Jay a dumbass, but no doubt this whole thing is just hypothetical.

Well if we are talking specifically about his hypothetical wife, then she should know ahead of time that loading up the plane with all the crap she bought is not a possibility. Telling her "Honey, you can only by 20lbs worth of stuff or we will be not be able to leave," and then her going out and buying 120lbs of stuff makes her a dumbass. Or the dumbassery falls on Jay in this situation for not planning ahead for his wife's frivolity.

All my trips are planned with fuel first. Then work backwards, not load up the plane with crap and see how much we have left for fuel.
 
Buying a bunch of stuff on holiday does not make Jay's wife a dumbass. It makes her female. That's what girls do on holiday.
Wait a minute, I always show up with less crap than any of my male counterparts...
 
I guess I show up with lots of junk, but hardly any of it is new. I can't remember the last time I just went shopping for the fun of it. The only thing I bought on Mackinaw Island last year was batteries for my camera... oh yeah, a T-shirt too. Of course. :D
 
No need to get feathers ruffled. First, there are exceptions to every generalization, to be certain. Second, there is absolutely nothing wrong with shopping on holiday, or any other time, for that matter. Heck, I shop on holiday, since I almost never do so when not on holiday.

I think it is important for men to plan into their trips extra capacity for the purchases that are likely to be made by their female companions. I doubt there are too many married men who would disagree with me on this point.
 
Gibbs Service Center at KMYF

John
That explains it. Gibbs is good, but pricey. I don't think any of the Plus One aircraft are maintained by Gibbs.

I'll bet you could get the annual done for alot less at Sorbi or Spiders.

I'm planning on having First Flight down at SDM do my future annuals. Reasonable rates and Tom Sarvis knows a thing or two about 170s.
 
my annuals have been averaging about 100-150 for the last 5 years
 
Way harsh, you should lighten up. Part of the purpose of vacations is so your significant other can buy stuff. That's why you purposely underload on the way out, if you know what's good for you.

Last trip I did with the Mrs. was in the convertible (we were going to fly wherever the rain wasn't, but it was right over us). My convertible doesn't even have a trunk. Saved me a bunch of money.
Not harsh - it's a hyptothetical, so he's only insulting the "hypothetical dumbass wife".

A ferry permit for overgross ops does wouldn't fit in this situation, since those special flight permits restrict occupancy to those people and equipment necessary for the safe conduct of the flight. By tossing out the family and the junk you no longer need the special flight permit.
 
don't ship the 100 lbs. take it to the local goodwill. next time your wife won't pack or buy as much..

So Tony how lang have you been married?:lol:
 
Out here, the basic price, just to open things up then put em back together is around $1,200.00, it goes up from there with each thing they fix.

You live in California, where the prices of EVERYTHING are inflated.

A friend once found a job for me in California, and said I shouldn't have a problem doing it or getting it, and that it'd start at $80K/year. I asked, "How much is that in US Dollars?"

Weather's beautiful, if excessively boring... But holy crap it costs too much out there.
 
That's not how I read the reg
FAA will read it that you should park your crap on the ramp and fly home.

They will tell you that you don't need it and legally they will be 100% correct.

Then depending on the size of the stick up the inspector's butt he may just go to the airport and wait for you to take off over weight and have a violation waiting for you when you get home. Think I'm kidding? I know an operations guy who trolls facebook photos and issues violations for things he finds people posting pictures of.
 
You fly the plane and send the wife and kids home in a car (with all the extra crap). Then you get to make the trip with all the fuel you need, throttle open, and as fast as possible. Lots of car rentals can be one way and are cheap enough as long as you're not returning it to an airport.
Me and my SO talk a Suburban on vacation in NC because you can't just vacation without shopping. Our return, the Suburban is stacked to the rafters.
If I ever take the Warrior to NC, she's driving the 'burb!
 
(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes: (1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs, alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a point of storage.

(2) Delivering or exporting the aircraft.

(3) Production flight testing new production aircraft.

(4) Evacuating aircraft from areas of impending danger.

(5) Conducting customer demonstration flights in new production aircraft that have satisfactorily completed production flight tests.

(b) A special flight permit may also be issued to authorize the operation of an aircraft at a weight in excess of its maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the normal range over water, or over land areas where adequate landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available. The excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is limited to the additional fuel, fuel-carrying facilities, and navigation equipment necessary for the flight.
http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/21-special-flight-permits-19559096#ixzz1M9VLVmdQ
Beyond the normal range, in your scenario you aren't even at the normal range. If I NEEDED 100 gallons of fuel to make a trip overwater in my airplane (88 gal tanks) I could use this reg to get the permit, however if I needed only 80 gallons but had too much other weight in the plane I couldn't
 
21.197 - Special flight permits.

(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes:

(4) Evacuating aircraft from areas of impending danger.

(b) A special flight permit may also be issued to authorize the operation of an aircraft at a weight in excess of its maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the normal range over water, or over land areas where adequate landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available. The excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is limited to the additional fuel, fuel-carrying facilities, and navigation equipment necessary for the flight.

Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/21-special-flight-permits-19559096#ixzz1M9VLVmdQ

I'll see your 21.197 and raise you a 21.199:

§ 21.199 Issue of special flight permits.

(a) Except as provided in §21.197(c), an applicant for a special flight permit must submit a statement in a form and manner prescribed by the FAA, indicating—

(1) The purpose of the flight.

(2) The proposed itinerary.

(3) The crew required to operate the aircraft and its equipment, e.g., pilot, co-pilot, navigator, etc.

(4) The ways, if any, in which the aircraft does not comply with the applicable airworthiness requirements.

(5) Any restriction the applicant considers necessary for safe operation of the aircraft.

(6) Any other information considered necessary by the FAA for the purpose of prescribing operating limitations.

You can be sure that your special flight permit is ONLY going to allow those people that you specified IAW 21.199(a)(3) to be aboard during your flight.

Also, I doubt mere "storms" are considered "areas of impending danger." Sure, a hurricane or the like probably qualifies, but I doubt a severe thunderstorm watch is enough to allow them to get you to move a plane under a ferry permit anyway.
 
You can't. The weather forced you to a route that had no fuel. Yes this is fiction, but I think this has a real answer. I've already researched and found one that works. I'm looking for other ideas.

There are VERY few places where that's true. First of all, you generally aren't "sandwiched" by weather, and if you are, you should probably consider not going at all, ESPECIALLY not over max gross.

Even in a 172 with 40-gal tanks, your 19 gal of space leaves 21 gal of fuel, which gives you enough for a good solid hour and a half of flying, which ought to get you 100nm even in some pretty hefty headwinds.

Even in the great wide west, there's not very many places where you won't see any fuel for 100nm. I say that due to two experiences:

1) When I took my big west coast adventure trip a few years ago (5800nm, WI to WA to SoCal and back to WI thru AZ, UT, CO, etc...) I had a Garmin 496 aboard but also a 430 in the panel. I mainly used the 496 for weather, so when I wasn't concerned about weather I usually kept it on the list of the nearest airports. Even in the middle of damn nowhere, the furthest airport away on the 1st screen (8th? 10th? 12th? I dunno) was less than 60nm away.

2) A few months ago, I had something that had a lot of similarity to your story: I put together a quote to ferry a Champ from MI to WA. It had the standard 11.5-gal usable fuel tanks, but had an engine upgrade from the original 2-cylinder Franklin to an O-235 which burned about 4.5 gph. Cruise speed, about 85 knots. Do the math: About 2.5 hours of fuel, TOTAL. Using a 1-hour reserve, that means you can make it about 125nm if there are NO headwinds at all. I was planning 100-nm legs, which would allow for up to 15 knot or so headwinds. It was a lot of planning for a trip of that length - 20+ fuel stops I think it was - But it was only the number of stops necessary that made it time-consuming - And the fact that I planned three different full routes to choose from depending on what weather systems were moving through at the time. (Terrain was a factor as well, of course.) There are a lot of places you can stop for gas, even out west.
 
don't ship the 100 lbs. take it to the local goodwill. next time your wife won't pack or buy as much. or there won't be a next time, in which case you won't have any issues with loading the plane up with fuel and making the trip home.

LOL! Tony, I love your answers lately...

Of course, the above is really easy to say for someone who'll never have to worry about this scenario 'cuz his wife is about 75 lbs soaking wet! ;)
 
God, if only prices were the same out here. Maybe I should move to Grand Rapids. Hows the weather out there?

It's a lot less boring than 85 and sunny every day! :yes: Those of us in the Great Lakes region get four beautiful seasons, we don't get too much turbulence even in the summer (and you can easily outclimb it even then), and the winter makes our airplanes have truly amazing performance, not to mention the spectacular visibility.

C'mon out! :yes:

BTW, FWIW - IIRC you have a Cherokee 180? We've gotten through every annual on our Archers for the last several years for about $1500 save for the one where an engine needed 4 new cylinders. Still several places around selling avgas in the low $4/gal range too. And our sales tax is between 5% and 5.6% depending on county. And... Well, come to Oshkosh in your plane, and then have a look around. :thumbsup:
 
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