Serious problem at my FBO, I need help!

[thezoolityre]

Hey folks, I have got a problem on my hands that is infesting my flight school and has caused some people to leave the FBO entirely. I need some advice before this gets too far out of hand that the customers or even the employees will have no say and they are powerless and miserable...

The problem is a person who has worked as a secretary for many years as the FBO's name has changed but the same problem still remains... And now, more than ever, she is trying to take over and this could mean FBO self-destruction

1)She is power hungry, this women has, behind our owner's back, lied to our linesmen, mechanics, and Flight Instructors about how she is in control of pretty much everything. She has told CFI's (who are operating as PIC and have the final say for a flight '91.7') that they aren't allowed to go simply because "she feels like nothing will get done on the flight". She has gone over our owner and Chief Pilot too many times to count on my fingers about what should and should not be going on at the flight school, and has insinuated that she doesn't care what the FAR's say, you aren't going because she doesn't want you to go.

2) She knows NOTHING about Aviation. No kidding, if you saw and talked to this women, you would not have one clue that she even knows what an airplane looks like.

And I wouldn't have a problem with that, except (which is the next issue) she is very nosy, and this one day a student came up and asked chris (A commercial certificated instrument rated pilot at the desk) what the suffix for our Garmin G1000 equipped Cessna 182 turbocharged was for IFR flight (which is T182T/G), but this idiot interrupts the conversation between two FAA certificated pilots (A women with ZERO flight time and ZERO aviation certificates) and yells at Chris saying "NO!! If you don't know the right answer don't tell him the wrong one, this is why students should be going to CFI's not other students..." and looks over to the student and says it is a "T"... Now I am assuming she meant the "T" in T182T, but that could have caused some serious issues

Why? well, in case some of you are not instrument rated, we use suffixes for airplanes to inform ATC of the operating instrumentation capabilities of the aircraft during IFR flight, so if you put down a Suffix for the flight plan that says you don't have DME, they will most likely vector you on the approach to the higher MDA for safety. But what this women did was nose her way in to a conversation, insult a commercial pilot, and then proceeded to give a new IFR student false information. A G1000 has all the bells and whistles, its got NEXRAD, TCAS, DME, Terrain clearences, etc. But a "T" suffix means NO DME, NO GPS and NO TRANSPONDER!! Pretty much the lowest you can get on the instrumentation suffix list...

3) she is nosy not only is she nosy, but horribly deceptive, the one time our chief pilot got angry at her for her asking questions about why he went up with a student, she called the owner and said they the chief was performing dangerous tasks in the airplane with his students, and treating his students more like "buds" than students. Which is not true AT ALL. I am not a huge fan of my chief, but I know first hand he is buds with his fellow flight instructors but that is it, when it comes down to the student he is personable (asking how they are doing, how was there weekend, you know... Normal HUMAN INTERACTION) but professional and she now has lied to the owner so much about my chief, that the owner will now no longer even say hello to him...
Also, Our head mechanic has not one nice thing to say about her (which I cannot disagree on) And she knows this, so anytime the student has a question about the airplanes powerplant or a strange A&P question, the desk guy says "oh goes ask our A&P" and she interrupts and says "No! You don't disturb our A&P! Besides he has nothing good to say, if you have any questions just ask one of the CFI's....or me??!!"

This has gone on long enough at this school and need some advice. So I have two major questions, one: can a secretary be a manager of an FBO AT ALL, and if so what legal experience does she need (keep in mind, she has no college education or prior management experience) to be one. And two, what can I do here?? I am one, frustrated how she yells at me, a customer, and students just for asking for the book before filling out a flight plan for practice area, VFR flights. Or, for talking to the guy at the desk while we wait for our flight instructor (after the airplane is pre-flighted and it is freezing out), even though there is no one behind me waiting to be serviced.

I was really looking forward to getting a job there, it is a convenient place for me to work and i really enjoy the airport environment, but only when she isn't there (and I speak for a lot of others at this FBO!), What can I do?? I have a lot of people saying they will never come back to this FBO until she is gone, and that is a clear sign of lack of customer service, overall disrespect, oh ya, and the owner is losing money!! The one thing you, as an employee are out to help make!!

Any answers or suggestions or even legal advice would be of really great help right about now...

Thanks so much guys!

 

[JHW]

why so much concern? FBO's come and go all the time. If the company has issues it will fold. Move on.

 

[ja_user]

So you all are powerless against the secretary? Are you an owner, or a student? Either vote with your feet (and communicate it), or fire her...

 

[Vaflier]

Gather everyone together and as a group go see the owner. Tell him what is going on and the is creating a dangerous atmoshere. If he does not listen to all of you then there is nothing more you can do. Find another job and get out of there.

Good luck.

 

[N747JB]

In a privately owned business anyone can be the boss. What you described happens in small companies all over America everyday of the week. You have what sounds like an absentee or weak owner that has a lot of faith in this woman for whatever reason. I can tell you that short of a total mutiny by ALL the employees, you are fighting a losing battle trying to get this woman run off. She's been there a long time and eats little punks for breakfast. She's got the bosses best interest at heart, if you don't believe her, just ask her.
We are watching the same thing unfold at my son's school, a woman has a couple of the administrators snowed, she's run off a lot of students, parents and finally teachers are leaving, some with 20+ years at the school.
No one can figure out what's going on? No one wants to cross her, even though she doesn't have any real power, she just knows how to work people.
Probably the same thing your lady is doing, pointing out anything that "certain people" do that is technically wrong, usually out of context, but it's always in the best interest of the school/FBO. The reality is she only reports on things pertaining to people she wants to get in trouble, and not the ones on her good list. by the way the owner will think you are just a dumb kid that is either jealous of this woman or doesn't understand "business"
I would find another FBO

 

[denverpilot]

Way too much unnecessary drama for me. There's other FBOs and lots of other airplanes.

 

[wabower]

You are peeing against the tide and she will be there long after you're gone.

Leave now and don't ever go back.

 

[DavidWhite]

Boy, if someone called me a student (Commercial instrument, multi engine, tailwheel, high performance) a student I would tell them to go **** themselves. I'm always learning, but I am NOT a student.

 

[Matthew]

So you all are powerless against the secretary? Are you an owner, or a student? Either vote with your feet (and communicate it), or fire her...

I don't get it either. I think I've only dealt with one out-of-control secretary (not at an FBO) and it was a pretty easy fix: ignore it, or just handle your conversations outside her desk area. If she can't be fired, like she's hand-propping the owner, the CFIs should tell their students to ignore her or not to speak to her any more than necessary.

It sounds like you were trying to get a job there - well, at least you know what you are getting yourself into.

 

[John221us]

People only have the power they are given (or claim from a weak boss). I would agree with most of the statements above, that you are swimming against the tide and can only vote with your feet, unless you have some confidence with the owner that you haven't mentioned. She isn't the problem though, lack of management is the problem. She is only the symptom.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Gather everyone together and as a group go see the owner. Tell him what is going on and the is creating a dangerous atmoshere. If he does not listen to all of you then there is nothing more you can do. Find another job and get out of there.

Good luck.

X2

If enough of the students (SEE MONEY PAYING CUSTOMERS) complain to the owner, at the very least there is a good chance he will have a come to jesus with her about it.

I would also ignore her, if she interrupts on a aviation related topic, politely say "Oh Im sorry, I was asking the pilot/CFI" or "I wasnt aware you got your instructors license, whats your FAA passrate?" and go back to your conversation.





As for all these folks on the thread saying do nothing and just leave, sounds like we got some meek ones here

 

[denverpilot]

As for all these folks on the thread saying do nothing and just leave, sounds like we got some meek ones here

Oh hell no. Not meek.

Owner letting this happen is either willful, or not, I wonder what other critical parts of the business are being neglected.

You don't hire and retain crazy people for your front counter. If you don't know they're causing a problem, you're an absentee owner. If you do, something else is going on.

The place has other problems under the hood, I can almost guarantee it.

She isn't worth the effort of finding out.

As Jack Nicholson said... "We're all stocked up on crazy here."

 

[SkyHog]

I'm assuming (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you are young, perhaps 16 or 17 years old? I mean no offense, whatsoever, its just an assumption.

I ask because based upon the way your post reads, you are conflicted about how to react to a person who is in a power position. This generally is something that comes with both age and self-esteem. Realistically, the way you should handle this (and the way I would handle it) is to call her on her BS and tell her to stop. If she says something wrong, explain to her why she is wrong and let her know that her input is neither needed or appropriate. Then, if she continues, go to the owner and explain to him what she is doing. If he doesn't believe you, then simply vote with your dollars and make sure he understands that you are going elsewhere.

Additionally, make sure you get others to do the same. If you fail to do so, you're a single person, and one customer will not make a difference.

 

[Henning]

Toss her into a prop, what's the problem?

 

[Jim Logajan]

Toss her into a prop, what's the problem?

What a horrible idea - a prop strike would possibly damage a perfectly good engine.

 

[Henning]

What a horrible idea - a prop strike would possibly damage a perfectly good engine.

There is no such thing as a perfectly good engine, they're all always ready for an IRAN.

 

[cirrusmx]

If its not your business then its not your concern. if she doesnt treat you as a customer should be treated then go explain to the owner how she is loosing your business. other than this if you dont like it there go elsewhere. that simple.

 

[murphey]

What a horrible idea - a prop strike would possibly damage a perfectly good engine.

Besides, it's an awful lot of work to clean off the airplane.

 

[thezoolityre]

Okay folks an update to some of the comments. I am a Commercially Certificate Instrument pilot just about finished with my Certified flight instructor and have no affiliation to the owner.

The one owner is harmless, but the brother is the big man who calls the shots, but he lives out of state, like in the WEST and he only comes twice a year, and every day he is here visiting and checking up on the school, he gets an ear full from the "secretary" about complaints for other people in the office just to make her look better, and she has actually said that when the owner comes to visit, she will make the linesmen, dispatchers, and CFI's life hell if she looks anything less than her best in front of him.

How does she make the CFI's life hell? ohhhh I'll tell ya, she actually weeds students off any CFI's schedule that is giving her crap, and vice versa when they brown nose her, THAT HAS TO BE ILLEGAL!!!!

 

[thezoolityre]

I'm assuming (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you are young, perhaps 16 or 17 years old? I mean no offense, whatsoever, its just an assumption.

I ask because based upon the way your post reads, you are conflicted about how to react to a person who is in a power position. This generally is something that comes with both age and self-esteem. Realistically, the way you should handle this (and the way I would handle it) is to call her on her BS and tell her to stop. If she says something wrong, explain to her why she is wrong and let her know that her input is neither needed or appropriate. Then, if she continues, go to the owner and explain to him what she is doing. If he doesn't believe you, then simply vote with your dollars and make sure he understands that you are going elsewhere.

Additionally, make sure you get others to do the same. If you fail to do so, you're a single person, and one customer will not make a difference.

Okay but here's the thing, if I were to get a job there as a CFI, what she does is takes people of their schedule if they give her attitude!! What do I do now??? Everyone's saying just leave... I am thinking about it now more than ever

 

[jmp470]

Vote with your wallet and beat feet out of there. If you are asked why you are going elsewhere, tell the truth. But know, most people will be blind to it and you might look the fool. You could even find out who the owner is and call him / her and lodge a complaint.... but again, it will probably fall on deaf ears...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Okay but here's the thing, if I were to get a job there as a CFI, what she does is takes people of their schedule if they give her attitude!! What do I do now??? Everyone's saying just leave... I am thinking about it now more than ever

Confront her intelligently, briefly and decisively if (when) she butts in again, preferrably with a few witnesses. If it doesn't work (it probably won't) go over her head and see what's up.

You'll be able to tell quickly from the boss if the situation is worth any more effort salvaging or if it's in your best interests to just move on, often the fresh air of a new FBO alone will give a positive boost to your CFI training.

If she's "giving flight instruction", a written memo to the FSDO, and CCd to her might be in order.

 

[Henning]

Okay but here's the thing, if I were to get a job there as a CFI, what she does is takes people of their schedule if they give her attitude!! What do I do now??? Everyone's saying just leave... I am thinking about it now more than ever

Clock the ***** upside the head and tell her if she f-s with you you will kill her next time.

 

[cirrusmx]

Clock the ***** upside the head and tell her if she f-s with you you will kill her next time.

leave no trace

 

[cirrusmx]

dude if you cant deal with a secretary what makes you think you will be able to handle a doctor killer pilot wanna be as a student? those guys tend to be older, successful in what they do, but hard headed, terrible at flying and total jerks. you need to be able to work with people no matter how idiot, bitchy, condescending, liar, or jackass they might be.you need to learn how to get what you want and not take attitudes personally. at least thats how i do it. get in do the job get out.

 

[bqmassey]

You're the customer. Man up and say something.

 

[thezoolityre]

dude if you cant deal with a secretary what makes you think you will be able to handle a doctor killer pilot wanna be as a student? those guys tend to be older, successful in what they do, but hard headed, terrible at flying and total jerks. you need to be able to work with people no matter how idiot, bitchy, condesending, liar, or jackass they might be.you need to learn how to get what you want and not take attitudes personally. at least thats how i do it. get in do the job get out.

Right, and I expect that, but at least I still would have the final say, and I would have the point of authority in the long run, but with this women the authority is so skewed it is frustrating, and did you read everything she does? I highly doubt I will have a student that deceitful.... But now I know what it will be like if I do, so maybe its a learning experience...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Right, and I expect that, but at least I still would have the final say, and I would have the point of authority in the long run, but with this women the authority is so skewed it is frustrating, and did you read everything she does? I highly doubt I will have a student that deceitful.... But now I know what it will be like if I do, so maybe its a learning experience...

That's the big trouble with someone so deeply entrenched in an organization hence, the FSDO angle, which is a big hassle for everybody. It depends on how much you want it and what vibes you get from the owner.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I've complained to a small business owner only to find out the problem person was his wife. Another place had a lot of family working there. Tread lightly if you don't know what the relationship is. For some reason, she's being allowed to do this. I'd try to find out why before stepping on your feet with golf shoes. If that's the case, you'll have to work through it or leave. In either case, take the high road. No sense in burning bridges if things change there.

Best,

Dave

 

[RJM62]

As for the legality, it's a private business. If the owner wants to make his pet parrot the manager, there's not much you can do about it.

As for Ms. Congeniality, it sounds like she's a rather garden variety control freak. If I had to guess, she's either in a special friendship with the owner or else has the goods on him; but it could also just be that the place is making money and he gives her credit for that (deservedly or otherwise).

What I would try first would be to wait for an appropriate opportunity when she oversteps her bounds, and then get right in her face (as in nose-to-nose), lower your voice, wear a slight grin, speak slowly and distinctly, and state your case assertively -- but without any sort of language that will call your sanity into question.

If at all possible, do this when there are a few people around to witness it -- not many, but not none -- preferably the Chief being one of the people.

End with, "I'm glad we had this little talk and understand each other now," smile broadly, and go about what you were doing before she interposed herself. Do NOT ask, "Is that understood?" because that hands her the control back.

In short, think Jack Nicholson, not Alan Alda. But don't go overboard and think Joe Pesci. That would call your sanity into question and could affect your medical.

If that doesn't work, walk.

-Rich

 

[Arnold]

Okay but here's the thing, if I were to get a job there as a CFI, what she does is takes people of their schedule if they give her attitude!! What do I do now??? Everyone's saying just leave... I am thinking about it now more than ever

In most industries I'd ask why you would want to continue to spend your money there when the organization is so toxic. You hint at the answer when you say that you want to keep open the possibility of getting a job there as a CFI. That brings up the question of why would you want to work in such a toxic organization? But of course we know it is aviation and jobs are always scarce and so people put up with all sorts of nonsense to get and keep jobs.


Whether or not you want to try to change the organization is up to you, but on the whole I would say it is unlikely you can have any impact so I'd walk away. A carefully crafted letter to the owner (not sure he really is if his brother comes into town twice a year and shakes things up) explaining why you left might start the change ball rolling down the hill, however it is at least as likely to be a futile waste of time.

I think you are correct that a place where you have spent your hard earned money building your credentials will be more likely to hire you. It seems to me the time to move to a new FBO is while you still have some money to spend and a reason to spend it (working on your CFI) rather than after your CFI is in your pocket.

If you were my child I would say run, run as fast as you can.

 

[X3 Skier]

I like the FSDO report idea best and you might even send in a BBB report about some of the changes to agreed to instructors, flights, etc since it might get to the owner.

If it were me, I would "thank her for her interest in National Defense Matters" as we used to say when we got some off the wall suggestion and ignored the input. If said input continued, move my dealings elsewhere.

Cheers

 

[Ted]

Walk away. End of story.

 

[Kelvin]

Boy, if someone called me a student (Commercial instrument, multi engine, tailwheel, high performance) a student I would tell them to go **** themselves. I'm always learning, but I am NOT a student.

We should all continue to be students. Ratings are ratings but now matter where you find ourself...you SHOULD be a student...

 

[Marauder]

Wait until you get into corporate America and see the shenanigans that go on there... I've worked both the private and public sectors of my industry. Life is too short to agonize over a situation that you, unless you marry one of the owner's daughters, is probably not going to change.

CFIs at small FBOs/flight schools come and go. The parrot (love that one) will always be there. Move on, take your passion somewhere it is appreciated.

 

[Ted]

We should all continue to be students. Ratings are ratings but now matter where you find ourself...you SHOULD be a student...

Agreed. If someone called me a student, I'd chuckle and agree.

It's also worth noting I refer to a number of my clients as students, because that is what they come to me for. Typically they're students for weather, radar/stormscope use, advanced engine management, etc...

 

[Matthew]

She's taking customers off the schedule just to get back at someone?

You can do a couple of things with that - have your students simply call you and bypass the schedule, but you'll have to find some way to make sure you can reserve a plane.

There are legitimate reasons for someone being dropped from the schedule - I've been dropped because another plane was down for maintenance and someone had a checkride scheduled and was given priority. But if this were happening on a consistent basis, you bet that I'd be making calls all the way up the chain of command. The students/customers need to start in on this, too.

Are there NOT a lot of people getting upset about it?

--

Oh, and the "toss her into a prop" idea - might be better to take a bent prop out of the back of the maintenance hangar and just beat the **** out of her with it. That way you won't hurt anything. Just wear gloves or wipe it down for prints when you are finished.

 

[wabower]

Meek and smart are different. The situation obviously didn't develop over-night, and the owners choose to allow it to continue. The novelty of beating a dead horse wears off quickly, so why start when you can walk?

X2

If enough of the students (SEE MONEY PAYING CUSTOMERS) complain to the owner, at the very least there is a good chance he will have a come to jesus with her about it.

I would also ignore her, if she interrupts on a aviation related topic, politely say "Oh Im sorry, I was asking the pilot/CFI" or "I wasnt aware you got your instructors license, whats your FAA passrate?" and go back to your conversation.





As for all these folks on the thread saying do nothing and just leave, sounds like we got some meek ones here

 

[tmyers]

I like Henning's approach. And the next time she buts in just look at her and say "Hey sweetheart can you get me a cup of coffee, black."

That will light the room up and you will then be free to walk.

Seriously, you will find these type A+ personalities in all walks of life. Try to not let them get under your skin and do what you have to do. If she interferes with you doing what you have to do either confront her or walk.

 

[TMetzinger]

Okay folks an update to some of the comments. I am a Commercially Certificate Instrument pilot just about finished with my Certified flight instructor and have no affiliation to the owner.

The one owner is harmless, but the brother is the big man who calls the shots, but he lives out of state, like in the WEST and he only comes twice a year, and every day he is here visiting and checking up on the school, he gets an ear full from the "secretary" about complaints for other people in the office just to make her look better, and she has actually said that when the owner comes to visit, she will make the linesmen, dispatchers, and CFI's life hell if she looks anything less than her best in front of him.

How does she make the CFI's life hell? ohhhh I'll tell ya, she actually weeds students off any CFI's schedule that is giving her crap, and vice versa when they brown nose her, THAT HAS TO BE ILLEGAL!!!!

I think you should take your business elsewhere and be done with it. If you wish, write a letter to the owner(s) and explain what you see, and LEAVE ALL THE EMOTION OUT OF IT.

You are clearly emotionally invested in the FBO - nothing wrong with that except that you need to maintain some perspective... it's not your business that's getting wrecked.