Serious crash at airshow in UK. Several dead

Really sad and horrifying. RIP to the lost souls
 
I knew the Vulcan was going two shows today at Shoreham and Dawlish so I assume the Hunter was doing both as well and was probably loaded with fuel for both, hence the large fireball.
 
May they rest in peace, another sad day in aviation.
 
Dad flew the Hunter when he was in the RAF (before the Lightning).

He said he (of course) entered into the maneuver too low. The airflow on the Hunter's wing under high-g maneuvers disrupts and degrades the performance of the mid-tail mounted stab/elevator. Said he should have unloaded the controls instead of tightening but at that low of an altitude he didn't have much of a choice. He said the trademark mushiness before impact is typical when pulling too hard.

Another 50 or so feet and he would've cleared. :(
 
The OMFG WE HAVE TO BAN THESE THINK OF THE CHILDERN!!!!!! crowd is out in full force on this one.
 
mikea76 said:
The OMFG WE HAVE TO BAN THESE THINK OF THE CHILDERN!!!!!! crowd is out in full force on this one.
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We prove every year that low altitude stuff is extremely dangerous. No telling what the "floor" was supposed to be for the Hunter's act, but I could support a minimum of a 500' floor for vertical maneuvers to reduce the chance of a minor mistake resulting in a crash. Low, relatively level passes? Go as low as you want.
 
Good example of AoA and how or what it does if you exceed it.
 
I don't know how in the world that pilot survived...

RIP to the innocents lost
 
Archammer said:
I don't know how in the world that pilot survived...

RIP to the innocents lost
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Yup...

Something else must have happened to the loop besides him not pulling out. I can't imagine anyone would plan the bottom of the loop to be over a highway, even if it was permitted. I wonder how far that was from where he was supposed to be.
 
:sad: :(

On the Vansairforce forum they say that the pilot is also a passionate Van's RV-8 builder and an 'enthusiastic member of the UK RV scene who has done a lot for many of our builders'.
 
kyleb said:
We prove every year that low altitude stuff is extremely dangerous. No telling what the "floor" was supposed to be for the Hunter's act, but I could support a minimum of a 500' floor for vertical maneuvers to reduce the chance of a minor mistake resulting in a crash. Low, relatively level passes? Go as low as you want.
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I agree! I have had that same thought when previous airshow accidents happened. I do not think it will take away from the enjoyment or wow factor of the show. And the main reason I support this idea is for the safety of the innocent bystander more so than the performers who willingly accept the associated risks.
 
Damn, that is really a shame.
 
overdrive148 said:
Dad flew the Hunter when he was in the RAF (before the Lightning).

He said he (of course) entered into the maneuver too low. [...] Said he should have unloaded the controls instead of tightening but at that low of an altitude he didn't have much of a choice...
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Barring mechanical failure of some sort a well-flown airshow maneuver would have checkpoints for the first 270 deg of the overhead giving ample opportunity to abort if off parameters. Still someone manages to do this every year or two.

Nauga,
by the numbers
 
Yep, interesting haw many different angles this was captured.
 
The photo nerds over there in Europe are definitively on their game when it comes to capturing flying events.

Looks like a botched cloverleaf. Problem with these legacy fighters is they don't make good low-level aero platforms. They take too much real estate for OTT maneuvers and they can't rate the nose worth a %hit even an RCH below corner, let alone with stuff hanging off them. Not exactly the contraption I want to be doing that stuff below 1k AGL. A real tragedy and more fodder for the pedestrian lynch mob to keep shutting down the skies to those who dare fly.
 
hindsight2020 said:
The photo nerds over there in Europe are definitively on their game when it comes to capturing flying events.

Looks like a botched cloverleaf. Problem with these legacy fighters is they don't make good low-level aero platforms. They take too much real estate for OTT maneuvers and they can't rate the nose worth a %hit even an RCH below corner, let alone with stuff hanging off them. Not exactly the contraption I want to be doing that stuff below 1k AGL. A real tragedy and more fodder for the pedestrian lynch mob to keep shutting down the skies to those who dare fly.
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Quarter-Clover, unknown if it was a planned or ad-hoc figure.

The Quarter-Clover doesn't really have any good decision-gates so hard to know if you are OK or not until it's too late.

Friend of mine in the UK knows the pilot well and is of course pulling for him to survive, terrible accident.

Prayers for survivors and the family and friends of those lost.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Quarter-Clover, unknown if it was a planned or ad-hoc figure.

The Quarter-Clover doesn't really have any good decision-gates so hard to know if you are OK or not until it's too late.

Friend of mine in the UK knows the pilot well and is of course pulling for him to survive, terrible accident.

Prayers for survivors and the family and friends of those lost.

'Gimp
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He was simply too low. It's apparent when you watch the event unfolding. Happens quite often. Many videos which show this same situation.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
He was simply too low. It's apparent when you watch the event unfolding. Happens quite often. Many videos which show this same situation.
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Considering how many airshows there actually are, around the world, with so many performers at each event, and with so many figures per performance, it actually does not happen often at all, let alone quite often.

Mathematically speaking, these incidents are, thankfully, quite rare - tragic nonetheless, but rare. You have go back to the Ramstein accident, almost 30 years ago, for a similar airshow accident (not counting Galloping Ghost at Reno because that was not an airshow event).

The issue with the specific figure in this accident, the quarter-clover, is that it does not have any good places for decision gates and once the energy is directed downwards few outs.

Easy to say 'too-low' but shows a lack of understanding of the actual risks and approach to risk-management aerobatic pilots in general, and airshow performers in particular undertake.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
The issue with the specific figure in this accident, the quarter-clover, is that it does not have any good places for decision gates...
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For the Hunter? I find that hard to believe that performance is so uncertain that a min altitude and entry speed and speed and altitude over the top couldn't be set as they are with other (ex) tactical jets.

AcroGimp said:
...and once the energy is directed downwards few outs.
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On that we agree, and it's still possible to screw up with too little in the pull or too much hesitation and get yourself in a corner but these things are usually messed up before the down leg.

Nauga,
who tests to press
 
nauga said:
For the Hunter? I find that hard to believe that performance is so uncertain that a min altitude and entry speed and speed and altitude over the top couldn't be set as they are with other (ex) tactical jets.

On that we agree, and it's still possible to screw up with too little in the pull or too much hesitation and get yourself in a corner but these things are usually messed up before the down leg.

Nauga,
who tests to press
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Maybe I should have been more specific, because the quarter-clover is a true 3D/six-degrees-of-freedom maneuver, basically a loop with a roll component, much like a barrel roll it lacks good/easy decision gates after the entry, last easy out is at the top but no good decision gate according to my airshow performer friend, who knows the pilot in the accident aircraft.

For me as a low-time acro guy the barrel roll for example is similar and it is one where you only have the opportunity to go eyes in the cockpit at entry (speed, altitude and maybe G).

Can't speak for the Hunter but in the Yak during hard acro with vertical components, my altimeter is usually close to half a second or more behind the plane going up or down - with practice one can surely learn to incorporate that into thinking for decision gates but these things happen quickly and they devolve very quickly.

This was a real tragedy, hoping for best outcome for all effected.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
This was a real tragedy, hoping for best outcome for all effected.
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We are definitely in agreement here and with that I'll defer my comments on acro checkpoints to a later time and another thread.

Nauga,
who sometimes knows when to shut up
 
The way we teach our students in the -38 to commit to the "split-S" portion of the clover is to establish the 1) minimum altitude for pull (USAF requires 18K AGL for solo students) and 2) a maximum acceptable airspeed (generally 230KCAS) over the top. Anything lower and/or faster than either of those and it's a knock-it-off. Fairly easy decision to make actually.

In the T-6 II I could do these in a hell of a lot less vertical real estate, usually 5K or less. Much easier to rate the nose too. Like I've stated already, these vintage fast movers make shoddy acro birds and should be flown higher. There's a way to recover from a low pull through, which generally involves getting to the moderate buffet on these legacy jets and trading the symmetry of the maneuver for min altitude loss, but if you're starting the maneuver 500-1k AGL in the first place, you don't have much at all room for comfort.

Hip-shot Acro sequences in legacy jets is not for the uninitiated, and it can bite the initiated/experienced as this accident illustrates. I stay in my lane when it comes to my work airplane. It was built for speed, not acro, and it's very unforgiving below L/D. I just hope this accident doesn't kill the airshow circuit over there, God knows access to aviation is pretty much dead, by American standards anyways.
 
The last 3rd party loss of life in an airshow in the UK was in 1952. So I'm not sure what the "this happens so often!" crowd are on about.
 
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Katamarino said:
The last 3rd party loss of life in an airshow in the UK was in 1952. So I'm not sure what the "this happens so often!" crowd are on about.
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I wouldn't call Jimmy a 'crowd'. That's just him. He throws crap out all the time with no references.
 
Ban airshows? Add up all the people killed or injured during an airshow it would still not beat those killed by distracted drivers. Maybe we should be stripping the crap out of cars and trucks so drivers are less inclined to fiddle. Or just ban autos outright. Makes as much sense.
It isn't like these guys are rookie pilots. Just bad luck.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I wouldn't call Jimmy a 'crowd'. That's just him. He throws crap out all the time with no references.
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Not crap, unfortunately, but rather the truth. The Stearman accident with both the girl and the pilot killed, too low, too slow. Stalled it. This current accident was mis judgement, also too low, the list is quite extensive and for the total number killed in the last ten years , including the blue angel in South Carolina , who was too low, I'd say it's quite a few needless deaths which have also resulted in quite a few spectator deaths. Not difficult to research. In this case your own reply is crap, not mine. I should include a high time, good friend, FBO, and mechanic who killed himself in a Pitts at an airshow, pulling out too late and hitting much the same as the recent accident. He hit so hard that his helmet crushed his chest. He was too low when he pulled out of a spin. I've seen at least three other accidents like this on tv in the past few years. Usually a loop, pilot error.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I'd say it's quite a few needless deaths which have also resulted in quite a few spectator deaths. Not difficult to research.
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Yep, spectator deaths are not hard to research. You're still standing by your claim that the trend is "quite a few" of these types of accidents? :confused:

Jimmy cooper said:
The Stearman accident with both the girl and the pilot killed, too low, too slow. Stalled it.
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Rolled with insufficient airspeed to complete the roll. Airplane never stalled. Maybe you could at least attempt to accurately describe the basics.
 
Is this a typical takeoff for this type of aircraft? Does the author of this article even know what he was talking about?

Shoreham Air Show crash: New video shows Hawker Hunter jet's 'slow and unusual' take-off http://flip.it/OHAxl

http://flip.it/OHAxl



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