Sequester stupidity closing the KSTS control tower

[Skyscraper]

assumes facts not in evidence. How many mid-air's occur near towered vs non-towered airports ?

What do you have to gain out of arguing with me like this I wonder? And exactly what is your claim? that it will be exactly as safe or safer? find some "evidence" to support that one please

 

[JHW]

What do you have to gain out of arguing with me like this I wonder? And exactly what is your claim? that it will be exactly as safe or safer? find some "evidence" to support that one please

just trying to prompt some thought. Your premise is that losing the tower will cause a negative impact on safety. Why would you think this? What evidence do you have? What examples can you point to?

 

[Everskyward]

just trying to prompt some thought. Your premise is that losing the tower will cause a negative impact on safety. Why would you think this? What evidence do you have? What examples can you point to?

I'll give you an example. Boca Raton's tower is one that is scheduled to close. This accident happened before they had a tower and shortly after I flew into Boca Raton and thought that it was a pretty busy airport not to have a tower.

A more recent accident report involving the collision of a Learjet 55 and a single-engine aerobatic airplane in Boca Raton, Florida, also prompts us to examine whether our decision-making can be refined in light of the fact that others are sharing our air.

It was June 23, 2000. The Learjet departed the nontowered airport in Boca Raton and was climbing under VFR. It had an IFR flight plan on file but had not yet contacted ATC to activate it. The Extra 300S departed from a tower-controlled field in nearby Pompano Beach, Florida. Its pilot requested a frequency change two minutes later. The two aircraft collided 2.5 miles from Boca Raton, with the Learjet in a climbing left turn and the Extra in a level right turn. Investigators attributed the accident to both pilots' failing to maintain a visual lookout (while climbing and maneuvering), resulting in an in-flight collision and subsequent collision with residences and terrain.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2002/June/200206_Departments_Accident_Analysis.html

Of course you could say they should have been looking more carefully for traffic, however the Extra wouldn't have been 2.5 miles from KBCT without talking to anyone if there had been a tower. They got their tower not too long after this accident.

 

[ClimbnSink]

N=1. Towers are fed work programs that let GA jockeys pretend they are flying in a bigger sandbox. Safety theatre.

 

[Ted]

I will be the contrarian here and say that I think KSTS is one of the airports that still needs a control tower. There is a mix of fast and slow traffic and the runway configuration could lead to conflict.

Sure, it might need a tower. And as has been said before, some that need a tower will be closed, and those will likely be reopened.

 

[Henning]

Got a note from mutual friend about APA...the friend has written up notes for the flying club how to deal with Centennial during the overnight shift with no tower, even going so far as to draw maps of the parallel runways and describe the traffic pattern.

This scares me, that so many people are apprehensive about flying with no tower, to the point remedial training may be required to remind people how to fly.

You have to look at the flip side to the coin, it's like buying insurance for the responsible authority. They do a due diligence promotion costs a few thousand dollars and gets them off the liability hook when a pilot screws up the pattern and someone is looking for deep pockets to sue.

 

[Henning]

I'll give you an example. Boca Raton's tower is one that is scheduled to close. This accident happened before they had a tower and shortly after I flew into Boca Raton and thought that it was a pretty busy airport not to have a tower.



http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2002/June/200206_Departments_Accident_Analysis.html

Of course you could say they should have been looking more carefully for traffic, however the Extra wouldn't have been 2.5 miles from KBCT without talking to anyone if there had been a tower. They got their tower not too long after this accident.

Is that what happened to the Aerobatic outfit at PMP that used to advertise everywhere back in the 90s?

 

[n1959]

KSGR tower is another one.

 

[patrick wentworth]

I am based at STS and appreciate the tower. It is a training tower and we all get along quite nicely. Warbirds, Robinsons, Horizon, and the Cessna,Piper,RV gang but we are not as busy or congested as Little untowered Petaluma just down the road.

Will I miss it, sure, will it be as easy to get in and out, you bet, probably easier.

No ground control to call, we can wave and thumbs up to our neighbors on the ramp and taxiways. We will have to be more heads-up and on a swivel but that is good practice as well.

I agree with the OP the radio practice was/is nice and feel fortunate to have had it while I was being trained, but next we get to work on our Non-Towered skills, and the return to social courtesy around the air-patch.

Skyscraper, If you hear Skyhawk 79021 in the pattern -- I'll call your base...


I am in the Butler building across from the Defunct DragonFly school. Stop by and say HI.

 

[Skyscraper]

I am based at STS and appreciate the tower. It is a training tower and we all get along quite nicely. Warbirds, Robinsons, Horizon, and the Cessna,Piper,RV gang but we are not as busy or congested as Little untowered Petaluma just down the road.

Will I miss it, sure, will it be as easy to get in and out, you bet, probably easier.

No ground control to call, we can wave and thumbs up to our neighbors on the ramp and taxiways. We will have to be more heads-up and on a swivel but that is good practice as well.

I agree with the OP the radio practice was/is nice and feel fortunate to have had it while I was being trained, but next we get to work on our Non-Towered skills, and the return to social courtesy around the air-patch.

Skyscraper, If you hear Skyhawk 79021 in the pattern -- I'll call your base...


I am in the Butler building across from the Defunct DragonFly school. Stop by and say HI.

Nice! It's not really that I'm anticipating any problems, I just enjoyed talking to my friends in the tower.

I'm Cessna 8187 Sierra, in the new shade hangar. I'll keep an ear out for ya

 

[douglas393]

I'll give you an example. Boca Raton's tower is one that is scheduled to close. This accident happened before they had a tower and shortly after I flew into Boca Raton and thought that it was a pretty busy airport not to have a tower.



http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2002/June/200206_Departments_Accident_Analysis.html

Of course you could say they should have been looking more carefully for traffic, however the Extra wouldn't have been 2.5 miles from KBCT without talking to anyone if there had been a tower. They got their tower not too long after this accident.

Maybe I am just being stupid, but how would have a tower prevented the accident. The planes took off from two different airports, about 10 or so miles apart. Granted if the Lear Jet had opened its flight plan on the ground which he may have done with a tower, but could have just as easily done it without a tower, and then there would have been separation provided by ATC. But both planes took off VFR from class D how would have a class D tower provide separation? ATC may have if they were on IFR, or possibly flight following, but it seems to me that the issue was more a failure of see and avoid, as the NTSB said. That being said, and having flown in that area a number of times, it is quite busy with 2 class C, 3 class D, and a untowered airport within a 20 mile radius of Boca Raton. When I fly there I am always either flight following, or on IFR, and still it is nerve racking at times.

 

[Everskyward]

Maybe I am just being stupid, but how would have a tower prevented the accident.

The Extra wouldn't have been that close to the airport not talking to anyone with the Learjet just climbing out. These airplanes accelerate pretty fast plus it's a busy time right after takeoff. Of course there is never a definitive answer whether or not a tower would have made a difference but Boca Raton is a busy airport in congested airspace with mixed speed traffic.

 

[douglas393]

The Extra wouldn't have been that close to the airport not talking to anyone with the Learjet just climbing out. These airplanes accelerate pretty fast plus it's a busy time right after takeoff. Of course there is never a definitive answer whether or not a tower would have made a difference but Boca Raton is a busy airport in congested airspace with mixed speed traffic.

That I understand, but the extra took off from a towered field, PMP, and was talking to someone, he in fact had switched frequencies according to the NTSB report. I am presuming ATC, which would have had the Learjet as VFR traffic, and indeed according to the description of the radar tracking they did. The only way I could see a tower making a difference would have been if the Lear opened its flight plan with the tower before taking off, but like I said you do not need a tower to do that, and it is certainly quite easy to do. I think the Lear would have taken off VFR if the tower was there and was planning to open his IFR in flight. In which case I am still uncertain how a class D tower would have made a difference.

 

[Everskyward]

That I understand, but the extra took off from a towered field, PMP, and was talking to someone, he in fact had switched frequencies according to the NTSB report. I am presuming ATC, which would have had the Learjet as VFR traffic, and indeed according to the description of the radar tracking they did. The only way I could see a tower making a difference would have been if the Lear opened its flight plan with the tower before taking off, but like I said you do not need a tower to do that, and it is certainly quite easy to do. I think the Lear would have taken off VFR if the tower was there and was planning to open his IFR in flight. In which case I am still uncertain how a class D tower would have made a difference.

For one thing, if there had been a tower the Lear would have most likely gotten its IFR clearance on the ground. Getting it in the air is a little shortcut (sometimes a big shortcut) if there is no tower. Even if ATC saw the Lear, they weren't talking to ATC yet so it wouldn't have done any good for ATC to say anything. Also, this happened 2.5 miles from the airport. If there had been a tower the Extra would have been in communication with it.

 

[dukeblue219]

Maybe the class D airports I've used are the exception to the rule, but while they don't technically provide "separation" to VFR traffic, they sure as heck will call you up if they see a conflict. Most I've used have a radar feed and do a great job keeping up with traffic in the area, and will even call up if you've just left their surface area "Cessna n12345 you still up? Traffic 1 o'clock....etc"

I get that a tower alone does not make a safe airport, but I can't believe it doesn't help at least a little. We're all safer with the extra set of eyes watching our flight, even inside the small area of D space. I don't see a single way it could make flying more dangerous, and plenty of ways they could help me stay safe. Especially at an airport with intersecting runways or other unusual features I always prefer the tower if there's steady traffic.

 

[JHW]

For one thing, if there had been a tower the Lear would have most likely gotten its IFR clearance on the ground. Getting it in the air is a little shortcut (sometimes a big shortcut) if there is no tower. Even if ATC saw the Lear, they weren't talking to ATC yet so it wouldn't have done any good for ATC to say anything. Also, this happened 2.5 miles from the airport. If there had been a tower the Extra would have been in communication with it.

getting a clearance has nothing to do with what happens on a climb in VMC

 

[Everskyward]

getting a clearance has nothing to do with what happens on a climb in VMC

If they had a clearance and were in radar contact there would have been another set of eyes. That doesn't relieve the pilots of looking but it's a safety factor. There also wouldn't have been the extra busywork of picking up the clearance in the air. The main thing, though, is that if there had been a tower they would have known about the Extra.

 

[JHW]

If they had a clearance and were in radar contact there would have been another set of eyes. That doesn't relieve the pilots of looking but it's a safety factor. There also wouldn't have been the extra busywork of picking up the clearance in the air. The main thing, though, is that if there had been a tower they would have known about the Extra.

getting a clearance has nothing to do with being in radar contact

really, I find it a little frightening how so many people seem to believe that ATC provides meaningful protection from mid-air's in scenarios like this.

 

[Everskyward]

getting a clearance has nothing to do with being in radar contact

really, I find it a little frightening how so many people seem to believe that ATC provides meaningful protection from mid-air's in scenarios like this.

In this case they did have radar contact, and yes I believe having a tower would have prevented this accident.

Review of radar data revealed N220JC was off the ground at BCT at 1540:53. The airplane was observed to start a right crosswind departure at 1541:02, passing through 700 feet on a heading of 242 degrees. At 1541:16, N220JC was at 1,400 feet heading 269 degrees with a ground speed of 191 knots. N300XS was observed on radar at 1538:25 off of PMP at 1,000 feet on a heading of 045 degrees. At 1540:43, N300XS was at 2,400 feet heading 341 with a ground speed of 169 knots. At 1541:11, N300XS is at 2,500 feet heading 346 degrees with a ground speed of 171 knots. N300XS descends to 2,400 feet at 1541:25 on a heading of 342 degrees with a ground speed of 172 knots. At 1541:30, N300XS is observed on radar turning to the right on a heading of 360 degrees with a ground speed of 173 knots. N220JC is observed in a climbing left turn passing through 2,300 feet on a heading of 269 degrees with a 180-knot ground speed. The last radar return on both aircraft was at 1541:30.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X21286&ntsbno=MIA00FA190A&akey=1

 

[Dav8or]

how much do you think the taxpayers should pay because you "enjoy improving your radio com skills" ? WTH does that mean, anyway ? You can get a lot cheaper radio controlled airplane at hobby lobby if that's your thing.

And they say the Red Board is the place where you find grumpy, mean ol' men. What a ****ty post to a newbie, low time pilot. Way to go. I wonder why people don't want to take up flying? Maybe too many self righteous, self important bullies? Don't know.

 

[douglas393]

In this case they did have radar contact, and yes I believe having a tower would have prevented this accident.



http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X21286&ntsbno=MIA00FA190A&akey=1

I understand your point, but still am uncertain whether it would have made a difference. The Lear did not open its flight plan, and I am not convinced they would have with a tower. The time difference between opening a flight pplan in a nontowered airport, and a towered airport is minimal, the time expense in my limited experience has been waiting for release, which is possibly faster in a nontowered environment. Though class D towers do not provide separation for VFR traffic, they often will if tbey can. Again, however, whether the Extra would have been in contact with the Boca Tower is unclear to me. Like I said I fly from that area and though the airports are close, there is certainly enough distance to avoid the different airspaces. I guess it is academic whether it would have made a difference, but I still think this is more a failure of see and avoid, than a accident due to not having a tower at Boca.

 

[JHW]

And they say the Red Board is the place where you find grumpy, mean ol' men. What a ****ty post to a newbie, low time pilot. Way to go. I wonder why people don't want to take up flying? Maybe too many self righteous, self important bullies? Don't know.

sorry to have offended, but people need to wake up. Hard times are coming and with the amount of crying people are doing over losing their meaningless control tower, I don't believe many of them will survive a loss of actual government services.

If you want to worry about impact on flying, then worry about unprocessed medical applications piling up or repair stations unable to produce parts for lack of inspectors.

Here in IL many of our bridges now have permanent barricades making them one lane. They won't pass inspection for 2 trucks at a time on them, and there is no money to fix them. We are in a race to the bottom, with california a close contender.

 

[Dav8or]

Airliners have the same nontowered procedures a C150 does. The AIM doesn't distinguish.

The AIM is advisory only. It is not law or regulation. Nobody is required to read it, or follow it's advice. If you think all the people flying into your pattern are going follow the AIM, you are going to be disappointed.

 

[bbchien]

getting a clearance has nothing to do with being in radar contact

really, I find it a little frightening how so many people seem to believe that ATC provides meaningful protection from mid-air's in scenarios like this.

In fact the only near midair that I have been in that was close enough to worry about paint transfer was foisted on me by DVT who apologized, "oh, I forgot about the Cessna on the opposite base...."

 

[Everskyward]

I understand your point, but still am uncertain whether it would have made a difference. The Lear did not open its flight plan, and I am not convinced they would have with a tower. The time difference between opening a flight pplan in a nontowered airport, and a towered airport is minimal, the time expense in my limited experience has been waiting for release, which is possibly faster in a nontowered environment. Though class D towers do not provide separation for VFR traffic, they often will if tbey can.

All I can say is that I always pick up the flight plan on the ground when there is a tower and I think most people flying jets do. When there is not a tower I do sometimes and I don't sometimes depending on the weather and my familiarity with the airspace. There are some places where is is almost impossible to pick up an IFR from the ground at an uncontrolled airport and approach strongly suggests taking off VFR. Salt Lake #2 and Tooele, UT come to mind.

Again, however, whether the Extra would have been in contact with the Boca Tower is unclear to me.

Since the accident happened 2.5 miles from KBCT and below 2,500 AGL, the Extra would have had to be in contact with the tower. That's within what would have been the Class D.

 

[Skyscraper]

sorry to have offended, but people need to wake up. Hard times are coming and with the amount of crying people are doing over losing their meaningless control tower, I don't believe many of them will survive a loss of actual government services.

If you want to worry about impact on flying, then worry about unprocessed medical applications piling up or repair stations unable to produce parts for lack of inspectors.

Here in IL many of our bridges now have permanent barricades making them one lane. They won't pass inspection for 2 trucks at a time on them, and there is no money to fix them. We are in a race to the bottom, with california a close contender.

Hard times are not coming, they've been here since 2008 (in my industry at least). If anything I was "crying" in a playful manner. As many have pointed out, yes, I'm just a student, I freaking Newb Gingrich over here. Also as many have pointed out, a warmer welcome or at least better crafted rant/response would have been lovely.

 

[JHW]

Hard times are not coming, they've been here since 2008 (in my industry at least). If anything I was "crying" in a playful manner. As many have pointed out, yes, I'm just a student, I freaking Newb Gingrich over here. Also as many have pointed out, a warmer welcome or at least better crafted rant/response would have been lovely.

well, reading again what you've written throughout, I think you have a pretty good handle on things and are going to do fine

 

[Dav8or]

assumes facts not in evidence. How many mid-air's occur near towered vs non-towered airports ?

So does your position that all will be fine. If there are mid airs in the future at some of these fields that used to have towers, will you admit that a tower was a good thing, or will you just automatically chalk it up to pilot error and their failure to "see and avoid"? You seem to have made up your mind no matter what that these towers on the list everywhere in the country have no value based on... gut feeling?

There are more mid airs at non towered than towered fields. You know that.

 

[JHW]

There are more mid airs at non towered than towered fields. You know that.

No, I don't know that at all. I would be interested in seeing some data that supports that. Unlike most airplane accidents, mid-air's probably all have a record of some kind.

My personal experience has been the opposite, the only close calls I have had have been in the vicinity of towered fields.

 

[Dav8or]

N=1. Towers are fed work programs that let GA jockeys pretend they are flying in a bigger sandbox. Safety theatre.

And you know this how? Please site your source and statistics. I believe that there are and always has been, more mid airs at non towered airports than towered. This is something you can look up.

 

[JHW]

And you know this how? Please site your source and statistics. I believe that there are and always has been, more mid airs at non towered airports than towered. This is something you can look up.

why don't you look it up since you "believe" it. I "believe" you will be surprised.

 

[douglas393]

All I can say is that I always pick up the flight plan on the ground when there is a tower and I think most people flying jets do. When there is not a tower I do sometimes and I don't sometimes depending on the weather and my familiarity with the airspace. There are some places where is is almost impossible to pick up an IFR from the ground at an uncontrolled airport and approach strongly suggests taking off VFR. Salt Lake #2 and Tooele, UT come to mind.

Since the accident happened 2.5 miles from KBCT and below 2,500 AGL, the Extra would have had to be in contact with the tower. That's within what would have been the Class D.

True, but would have it made a difference because the Lear had alreadt taken off when the Extra was just entering Class D. I just do not know if the presence of a tower would have made a difference, and in any case the presence of a tower does not relieve them of see and avoid. I am fairly sure that in that area they could have picked up an IFR clearance at the non towered Boca without a problem as I have done it at PMP without a problem when the tower was closed, though that was 13 years ago, and a different time.

 

[Everskyward]

True, but would have it made a difference because the Lear had alreadt taken off when the Extra was just entering Class D. I just do not know if the presence of a tower would have made a difference, and in any case the presence of a tower does not relieve them of see and avoid. I am fairly sure that in that area they could have picked up an IFR clearance at the non towered Boca without a problem as I have done it at PMP without a problem when the tower was closed, though that was 13 years ago, and a different time.

As I said before, we'll never know definitively. I do think that if a tower had been talking to both the Lear and the Extra that the chances of a midair would have been less.

 

[douglas393]

As I said before, we'll never know definitively. I do think that if a tower had been talking to both the Lear and the Extra that the chances of a midair would have been less.

True enough. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[ClimbnSink]

And you know this how? Please site your source and statistics. I believe that there are and always has been, more mid airs at non towered airports than towered. This is something you can look up.

Are there piles of smoking wreckage at uncontrolled airports? Pilots that think C150s and learjets are different should visit an uncontrolled airport with glider and parachute operations. If all the class d airspace disapperared tomorrow safety wouldn't change and efficiency would increase.

 

[GCA319]

sorry to have offended, but people need to wake up. Hard times are coming and with the amount of crying people are doing over losing their meaningless control tower, I don't believe many of them will survive a loss of actual government services.

If you want to worry about impact on flying, then worry about unprocessed medical applications piling up or repair stations unable to produce parts for lack of inspectors.

Here in IL many of our bridges now have permanent barricades making them one lane. They won't pass inspection for 2 trucks at a time on them, and there is no money to fix them. We are in a race to the bottom, with california a close contender.

Not every tower that is being closed is meaningless,so speak for yourself.

 

[GCA319]

The AIM is advisory only. It is not law or regulation. Nobody is required to read it, or follow it's advice. If you think all the people flying into your pattern are going follow the AIM, you are going to be disappointed.

The AIM isnt regulatory until someone screws up and is found to be in conflict with it. When that happens, the FAA can get you for careless operation.

 

[roncachamp]

I think your definition and my definition of dangerous diverge a bit. It might be inconvenient for them to have to merge into existing pattern traffic (likely on a straight in approach)... but by no stretch of the imagination is it dangerous. See and avoid. You've been trained to do this, right?

If they're on a straight-in approach it ain't them that is responsible for the merge.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Not every tower that is being closed is meaningless,so speak for yourself.

Meaningless to some and since everyone pays for them hard cheese. Local pilots should fund their own towers if they want them. Anything else is welfare.

 

[roncachamp]

Meaningless to some and since everyone pays for them hard cheese. Local pilots should fund their own towers if they want them. Anything else is welfare.

I've long advocated that VFR towers be funded by the same entity that operates the airport.