Sequester stupidity closing the KSTS control tower

[wabower]

The wait at most airports could be cut in half without any decrease in safety if the tower went away. Those who learned at non-towered fields are aware that another plane turning base or flying a two-mile final isn't an automatic no-go when you're #1 for the runway.

The student training is so intense at DVT that I started using GEU instead, because I didn't like watching the Hobbs on the rental plane tick over for fifteen minutes while I waited for my turn to take off. And that's with a tower.

 

[MAKG1]

Better yet, name any non-Bravo airport with sufficient density to gridlock the pattern.

KOSH.

It's not the everyday traffic patterns that kill you. It's the peaks.

 

[wabower]

NTSB reports to the contrary.

KOSH.

It's not the everyday traffic patterns that kill you. It's the peaks.

 

[denverpilot]

so you think APA and DVT are "safety theater"?

APA is only on the after-hours closure list. While there's some benefit to the midnight shift, the world wouldn't come to an end. Just to be fair here in the discussion.

From what I've heard, the APA Tower manager is a bit ticked that they won't let him set the hours of closure, they want the downtime to start at 10PM, he'd rather push that to midnight.

He figures it's, oh... You know... His job to manage the Tower. Go figure.

 

[Palmpilot]

Just because you are scared doesn't mean it is unsafe.

Assuming facts not in evidence.

I don't know whether it's unsafe or not. None of us does, unless or untill some data become available.

 

[Palmpilot]

The wait at most airports could be cut in half without any decrease in safety if the tower went away. Those who learned at non-towered fields are aware that another plane turning base or flying a two-mile final isn't an automatic no-go when you're #1 for the runway.

I haven't flown at "most" airports, so I can't comment on that, but there are people here who seem to be claiming that there is no need for a tower at any airport, and that just sounds like hubris, coupled with a firm belief that opinions are sufficient to settle the matter.

At my home airport in Palo Alto, the tower packs us in pretty tight. At a nearby uncontrolled field, I had someone get upset with me for taking the runway while he was on base. That's something that's routine at Palo Alto.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I haven't flown at "most" airports, so I can't comment on that, but there are people here who seem to be claiming that there is no need for a tower at any airport, and that just sounds like hubris, coupled with a firm belief that opinions are sufficient to settle the matter.

At my home airport in Palo Alto, the tower packs us in pretty tight. At a nearby uncontrolled field, I had someone get upset with me for taking the runway while he was on base. That's something that's routine at Palo Alto.

I think that is it, we know class D towers don't provide collision avoidance, I figured there only purpose was to help pilots think less, but there is more to it. Towers are butthurt avoidance. All that money to protect pilots feelings.

 

[wabower]

Anything is possible in California. Nothing that happens there is of any consequence elsewhere.

I haven't flown at "most" airports, so I can't comment on that, but there are people here who seem to be claiming that there is no need for a tower at any airport, and that just sounds like hubris, coupled with a firm belief that opinions are sufficient to settle the matter.

At my home airport in Palo Alto, the tower packs us in pretty tight. At a nearby uncontrolled field, I had someone get upset with me for taking the runway while he was on base. That's something that's routine at Palo Alto.

 

[Palmpilot]

I think that is it, we know class D towers don't provide collision avoidance, I figured there only purpose was to help pilots think less, but there is more to it. Towers are butthurt avoidance. All that money to protect pilots feelings.

There were only two of us in the pattern. I'm quite certain that a tower is not needed at South County Airport! The reason I mentioned it is that Palo Alto is an example of an airport where a tower makes usage of the airport more efficient, not less. If the guy with the "butthurt" had been based at Palo Alto, I'm sure that he would have been quite used to people taking the runway while he was on base.

Personally, I like non-towered airports, and other things being equal, I prefer them. But I think the claims that towers aren't useful are greatly exaggerated.

 

[Palmpilot]

Anything is possible in California. Nothing that happens there is of any consequence elsewhere.

Ha ha, very funny.

I suspect that DVT controllers make efficient use of the runways too. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to handle the intense student traffic there. And that's in Arizona!

 

[PilotAlan]

PAO on any sunny weekend.

Really? The pattern's so thick that you can't get down?
I've seen REALLY busy traffic patterns, but I've never been unable to land. And when trying to take off, asking the guy on downwind to extend a little has always worked.

I'm sure that's true in many cases, but saying that it's always true raises it to the level of political dogma.

I don't think I ever said always.

KOSH.

Really, that's your example? OK, I submit. OSH needs a tower one week a year.
Does it need one the rest of the year, when there's no air carrier service and it averages 249 operations per day (and that includes all the ops for Oshkosh in the daily average).

 

[Palmpilot]

Really? The pattern's so thick that you can't get down?
I've seen REALLY busy traffic patterns, but I've never been unable to land. And when trying to take off, asking the guy on downwind to extend a little has always worked.

Taking off when the pattern is full is often more of an issue than landing, as was already covered in post #104, by a pilot with far more experience than I have. And you don't have to be flying an unusually fast airplane to have that problem (although that obviously makes it worse, for the reasons iNdigo stated).

Something that affects creating space for both departures and arrivals is that PAO is hemmed in by NUQ, whose class D starts about two miles to the southeast. On sunny weekends, PAO's pattern gets so full that the usual downwind routinely extends into Moffett's airspace. That would not be a workable option if there weren't a tower at PAO.

Maybe you should try flying the pattern at PAO on a sunny weekend afternoon and then tell us what you think.

I don't think I ever said always.

Then why are you disputing what I'm telling you about Palo Alto, which is not even on the potential closure list?

Besides, I was referring to a post by someone else. Sorry if that wasn't clear:

Class D towers are safety theatre. And they let everyone play make believe big airport.

Nothing about "most" towers there.

 

[douglas393]

I would suggest that those of us who are experienced and comfortable flying in a nontowered environment will have no problem with the feds closing towers for the benefit of the shock value to the general public(which is exactly what this whole sequester is all about by the way). Those who are not experienced or comfortable flying in the nontower environment and the general public will have a completely different emotional response.

For what it is worth, which is probably not much, having flown equally in both non towered and towered environments, except for the really busy class C airports and the class B airports the advantages and disadvantages of the towered environment and nontowered environment pretty much make it a nonissue. In the busier airports, towers are advantageous. I have taken off and landed at times in nontowered environments when there were at least 15 other aircraft in the pattern or on approach, on the runway, landing, taking off, and entering the pattern, and the variety range from a powered hangglider without radio to a commercial scheduled jet and everything in between. There were no issues, no fights, no midair collisions, or near misses, and no arguments. Everyone looked out for everyone else, and communication and visualization was the key. I cannot for one second believe I am the only one to have been in this situation and it was completely a non issue.