Seniority System in Airline Pilots vs. Other Careers with Seniority Systems

N918KT

N918KT

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Just wondering, but is there a difference in how seniority works for airline pilots at airlines vs. other careers that run on seniority and involve shift work, both aviation & non-aviation careers?

Is the airline pilot seniority system really unique from other jobs or are there some similarities?
 
YES

At least for medical, many RNs and Docs are paid off experience, their seniority at their hospital just gets them maybe first choice on shifts or better vacation, a little extra money maybe, they can up and leave for another hospital without taking much of a hit.

Unlike the airlines where a guy with a ton of experience is tied to that company and will take a major pay hit for jumping the company ship.

Hence why I’m not going airlines, they expect you to be as loyal to the company as a dog.
 
I don't have experience at seniority based jobs other than the airlines, but as I understand it many industries have one union and one seniority list, and the various employers tap into that single list. The advantage there is that the career of the employee isn't locked down to one particular employer.
 
I don't think there is another industry that has a seniority system as elaborate as the airlines. Seniority may limit when you can test for a promotion, but after that your position on the promotion list is governed by your test score.
 
kayoh190 said:
I don't have experience at seniority based jobs other than the airlines, but as I understand it many industries have one union and one seniority list, and the various employers tap into that single list. The advantage there is that the career of the employee isn't locked down to one particular employer.
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Got an example of such? I'm assuming that if GM laid people off, they couldn't displace workers at Ford with lower UAW seniority, otherwise we'd hear about that kind of stuff more often.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Got an example of such? I'm assuming that if GM laid people off, they couldn't displace workers at Ford with lower UAW seniority, otherwise we'd hear about that kind of stuff more often.
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Growing up, my best friend’s Dad worked as a stagehand (not sure if this is the right term?) for all the various theatres and musical venues in the greater Los Angeles area. He was part of whatever union covers stagehands in that area, and based on his seniority he’d choose the gigs he’d want to work. Sometimes he’d work a rock concert at the Greek, Phantom of the Opera somewhere else, and so on. But his pay was set by the union, and he bid on whatever event and venue he wanted based on his overall seniority.

That’s the one example I can think of, although this was almost 20 years ago at this point - could be different today.
 
My neighbor is an electrician. During the downturn around 2009 he got laid off. He said he was on "The Bench" with 100's of others. He is a Master Electrician with a lot of experience.

His friend (business owner,union) wanted him to work for him but had to hire others from the bench first. So my neighbor formed a independent company and his friend then bought him out and he then somehow sidestepped the bench.

I always figured airline pilots would have come up with something similar where the airline could acquire a "business" and then blend in seniority from the other tiny company.

Does a policeman or fireman take the same trip right back to the lowest guy and least seniority if they switch to another city/union?
 
Our seniority list is based on labor classification for the most part, then by department. I hold a Labor Grade 1, Field Mechanic position. My seniority status is based 1st on being a Field Mechanic, then LG1, then I have a plant wide seniority within my regression tree.
Were I to get a layoff notice, I would bump the lowest LG1 in the facility, within my regression tree. It’s conceivable that I could get busted back to a structures guy, but they would have to shed about 2500 people first.
 
Seniority at the airlines is only valid at the airline where you work. If you leave to another airline, even if it has the same union, you are placed at the bottom of the seniority list.

That’s the biggest difference from trade unions. It’s also why the unions are just as much at fault for the problems in the industry as management.
 
Seniority is just like it sounds, but no need to fret over. One gets hired when they do, then you deal with where you sit. After a while the pilot has more control with relative position, one can spend more time as a ‘senior F/O’ before thoughts of upgrade.

Besides seats & bases, there is often a WIDE range of flying & trips within a seat category at a base. Now who wouldn’t want a long layover in Aruba compared to shorty’s at LGA or Detroit in January?
 
The contracting world is a stark contrast to the airlines where you pretty much have to stay with the same company or you get stuck right back at the bottom.

Pay is mostly based on the contract you're working on. Seniority means very little, although there may be perks for staying with the company for a longer time. We're talking promotion to instructor pilot, lead pilot or simply being able to hop over to a more attractive contract.

At my previous (as of this week) company, there was some grumbling from a few of the pilots a while back about how they had been with the company for X number of years (usually less than 3) but the guys that were just hired yesterday were making the same money. The folks that had been in the contracting world for a bunch of years weren't the ones grumbling. Last year the company decided to give raises based on time with the company in the hopes of improving retention. The end result was that the newer guys that hadn't been with the company very long still jumped ship to go with other companies that had what they considered to be better contract terms. And the old timers still quit to go fly some big iron with a major.
 
kayoh190 said:
I don't have experience at seniority based jobs other than the airlines, but as I understand it many industries have one union and one seniority list, and the various employers tap into that single list. The advantage there is that the career of the employee isn't locked down to one particular employer.
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That is actually rather rare and maybe only a practice in building trades.
 
Sinistar said:
My neighbor is an electrician. During the downturn around 2009 he got laid off. He said he was on "The Bench" with 100's of others. He is a Master Electrician with a lot of experience.

His friend (business owner,union) wanted him to work for him but had to hire others from the bench first. So my neighbor formed a independent company and his friend then bought him out and he then somehow sidestepped the bench.

I always figured airline pilots would have come up with something similar where the airline could acquire a "business" and then blend in seniority from the other tiny company.

Does a policeman or fireman take the same trip right back to the lowest guy and least seniority if they switch to another city/union?
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Some do. Maybe all, I dunno. My son is a Los Angeles County Firefighter. He ******* about LA from time to time. I say “so move and get a job there.” He says he’d be at the bottom if he did. Federal fireman wouldn’t have that problem. It’s a big company and has ‘offices’ everywhere.
 
Something else that is different where I am at, is that my seniority is only valid within the division of the company that I work in, and only for those facilities that are covered by our contract. I could take a job in another division, or with a different facility within our division, and under another contract, but my seniority would go to zero.
 
Sinistar said:
My neighbor is an electrician. During the downturn around 2009 he got laid off. He said he was on "The Bench" with 100's of others. He is a Master Electrician with a lot of experience.

His friend (business owner,union) wanted him to work for him but had to hire others from the bench first. So my neighbor formed a independent company and his friend then bought him out and he then somehow sidestepped the bench.

I always figured airline pilots would have come up with something similar where the airline could acquire a "business" and then blend in seniority from the other tiny company.

Does a policeman or fireman take the same trip right back to the lowest guy and least seniority if they switch to another city/union?
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In police and fire, if you change jobs you start over with seniority. Many employers have lateral entry so there is no pay or vacation loss.
 
In Airport Ops at the airport I work at, we have three tiers of seniority. You would start off as an Airport Ops Officer/Agent working Airside Ops for about a few years, then you would work Terminal/Landside Ops in the Operations/Ramp Tower for another couple years, then it's back to Airside Ops becoming an Airport Ops Duty Officer, where you would supervise Ops Agents and are also responsible for responding to various emergencies both on the airfield and in the terminal/landside. Whenever we have a schedule change, we do have a shift bid or at other times the supervisors would offer us to move to a different shift, with both cases based on seniority. The trainees get whatever shift we have left once they pass training.

So if you go from Ops Agent to Terminal/Landside you would start at the bottom of the latter seniority list. Same thing again if you get promoted to Duty Officer.

I have also heard that if an airport ops agent wanted to work at a different airport under another airport authority they may start over again at the bottom of seniority. But honestly I am not sure about if it is true and in my opinion it really depends on the new employer or union. Conversely, the two airport ops duty officer who worked at the airport for at least a decade got positions at another major airport as an Airport Operations Duty Manager, though I am not sure if their seniority is affected with regards to shift bidding, time off, etc.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
no need to. It’s a direct statement of fact. Sort of like walking outside at noon and saying it’s daytime.

Edit:
I wasn’t being sarcastic. I really don’t know what you are asking.
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I just want you to justify your statement. How are the unions just as much at fault?
 
In a previous job years ago I was in middle management. Upper management decided to standardize pay accross job descriptions. So I had to deal with the **** storm of newly hired employees getting a big raise while longer term employees didnt get any raise. Was great for moral. :rolleyes:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I just want you to justify your statement. How are the unions just as much at fault?
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Honestly I thought you were hinting at the whole RLA thing. At least that's what I was gonna tell the poster you quoted, wrt unions at the airlines being different than trade. Collective bargaining powers are a joke at the airlines due to the way the RLA, the NMB provisions specifically, have been fielded/implemented in the last 20 years imo. Unions in name only as far as I'm concerned. "fly now, grieve later"? Pftt, what a joke.

Not a jab at airline unions, more of an indictment of the NMB and the capital owner shills that pull the strings on that kangaroo court. But with Congress bought and paid for, and Citizens United being the cherry on top, the whole thing has no chance of reforming. Pilots being such addicts they won't rock the boat either. Lest we got cabotage laws repealed and then you'll see panic in some of the 9.9%er neighborhoods across the Country, but I digress.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I just want you to justify your statement. How are the unions just as much at fault?
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Really.. don’t you work 121?
I’m responding from a phone , I don’t have that much time right now. Honestly I’m going to have to give this some thought because I might violate the board rules answing your question.
 
James331 said:
YES

At least for medical, many RNs and Docs are paid off experience, their seniority at their hospital just gets them maybe first choice on shifts or better vacation, a little extra money maybe, they can up and leave for another hospital without taking much of a hit.

Unlike the airlines where a guy with a ton of experience is tied to that company and will take a major pay hit for jumping the company ship.

Hence why I’m not going airlines, they expect you to be as loyal to the company as a dog.
Click to expand...

My wife and sister are nurses. They start at a certain rate, and get merit and market raises, mostly. Sometimes, they get nothing. After a while, they top out on the merit raises. Seniority really has nothing to do with it. My wife has been working the same job for a couple of years now, has no intention of doing anything else until she retires. My sister has been working the same shift on the same floor for seven years. If either of them wanted to do a different job/shift, they'd have to apply for it, and if there is an opening and no one more qualified asked for that spot, they'd get it. If you have a level of experience in a specialty that gives you a leg up in applying for a job using that skill, doesn't matter where you got the experience.

It's not really anything like what the airlines do, since there's no bidding for a shift/job. Once you're in a shift/job, you're in it unless you ask for something else, no one more senior is going to bump you out of your shift.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Honestly I thought you were hinting at the whole RLA thing. At least that's what I was gonna tell the poster you quoted, wrt unions at the airlines being different than trade. Collective bargaining powers are a joke at the airlines due to the way the RLA, the NMB provisions specifically, have been fielded/implemented in the last 20 years imo. Unions in name only as far as I'm concerned. "fly now, grieve later"? Pftt, what a joke.

Not a jab at airline unions, more of an indictment of the NMB and the capital owner shills that pull the strings on that kangaroo court. But with Congress bought and paid for, and Citizens United being the cherry on top, the whole thing has no chance of reforming. Pilots being such addicts they won't rock the boat either. Lest we got cabotage laws repealed and then you'll see panic in some of the 9.9%er neighborhoods across the Country, but I digress.
Click to expand...

A lot of truth there. RLA definitely favors management more than a union. 24 years ALPA member and volunteer committee chair.
 
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