Seeking advice on controlled field operations

S

SoonerPilot

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
2
Display Name
SoonerPilot
I am a private pilot with ~120 hours experience, most of which has been in a Cessna 182Q. I trained at a pilot controlled airfield, with minimal exposure to tower controlled airports. While I am fairly comfortable on the radio in either situation, I need advice on entries into the pattern regarding flap and power settings.

It seems that every tower controlled field that I approach has a different method for bringing aircraft onto final. Sometimes on a 45 to downwind, others on a 2 mile base, and still others on a long straight in.

I guess my real issue is getting the power and flap settings correct for each type of entry. If I come in on downwind, I just fly the rest of the pattern like I would normally do it at "home". On a base entry it's not clear when I should add flaps and pitch for my different airspeeds. It's even more confusing on a long straight in.

Am I over-thinking this, or are there some rules of thumb for these different types of pattern entry?
 
So in all your training, you never made any straight in or base to final approaches???
 
I guess it sounds strange, but I didn't do all that many. I mainly fly around uncontrolled fields and just always fly a normal downwind, base and final.
 
Good grief. Some people's CFI's.... It's about recognizing where you are and where the plane needs to be, then doing what you need to do to make it happen. It isn't all about power/flap/speed pre-canned flying. I suggest you try some of those approaches are your usual uncontrolled field first. Get the hang of it there before making the tower controller nuts.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Good grief. Some people's CFI's.... It's about recognizing where you are and where the plane needs to be, then doing what you need to do to make it happen. It isn't all about power/flap/speed pre-canned flying. I suggest you try some of those approaches are your usual uncontrolled field first. Get the hang of it there before making the tower controller nuts.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: Take your normal rectangular pattern and what you normally do at what point and "unbend" it for base or straight in entry.

I'd also advise finding a willing CFI and do a few hours of "now show me the things I need to know and need to be good at for real world flying that the Private PTS didn't ask for." Things such as crosswind landings in brisker conditions than before. Flying with a full load. More emergencies. Shorter ans narrower runways. Grass runways. Basic IFR skills. And much more.
 
Do what you need to do to slow the airplane down and configure it for landing.
 
My CFI taught me to unfold the final, base and partial downwind leg into a straight in approach. Coming straight in, you can visually spot where your normal base leg would be. If you unfold that so it is in line with the final leg and then add another equal length, that gives you a good idea of where you can start descent from TPA and start to use flaps, etc. It would be about the same point as you would be abeam the numbers on a regular pattern. At least, that's the way I've been doing it but I only have about 70 hours.
 
SoonerPilot said:
. SNIP... I trained at a pilot controlled airfield, with minimal exposure to tower controlled airports. ... SNIP
Click to expand...

I never heard of a "Pilot Controlled Airport". How does that work?

As others have said. Where ever you are when approaching the airport, just unbend the "pattern" and configure the aircraft for where you are in relationship to the landing threshold.
 
SoonerPilot said:
I am a private pilot with ~120 hours experience, most of which has been in a Cessna 182Q. I trained at a pilot controlled airfield, with minimal exposure to tower controlled airports. While I am fairly comfortable on the radio in either situation, I need advice on entries into the pattern regarding flap and power settings.

It seems that every tower controlled field that I approach has a different method for bringing aircraft onto final. Sometimes on a 45 to downwind, others on a 2 mile base, and still others on a long straight in.

I guess my real issue is getting the power and flap settings correct for each type of entry. If I come in on downwind, I just fly the rest of the pattern like I would normally do it at "home". On a base entry it's not clear when I should add flaps and pitch for my different airspeeds. It's even more confusing on a long straight in.

Am I over-thinking this, or are there some rules of thumb for these different types of pattern entry?
Click to expand...

ATC doesn't care how you fly the pattern as long as you are at correct pattern altitude, and do not try to land without clearance. the main thing you should care about is having the proper speed and final landing config flap settings on final. you do that on any field you land on, so just do it when you get clearance to land.

ATC will tell you where to enter the pattern, which direction to fly, which runway you will use, and possibly delay your base turn dependent on traffic. be ready to extend downwind to base, and be ready to fly straight in if told to do so. when flying straight in, the usual tip is to set your final landing config for speed and flaps 2 mi out. thats the same as if you were turning base to final on unicom fields.
 
Last edited:
AggieMike88 said:
Take your normal rectangular pattern and what you normally do at what point and "unbend" it for base or straight in entry.
Click to expand...

Exactly what all these guys have said.

BillTIZ said:
I never heard of a "Pilot Controlled Airport". How does that work?
Click to expand...

You knew what he was referring to...:rolleyes:

CTLSi said:
ATC doesn't care how you fly the pattern as long as you are at correct pattern altitude, and do not try to land without clearance. the main thing you should care about is having the proper speed and final landing config flap settings on final. you do that on any field you land on, so just do it when you get clearance to land.

ATC will tell you where to enter the pattern, which direction to fly, which runway you will use, and possibly delay your base turn dependent on traffic. be ready to extend downwind to base, and be ready to fly straight in if told to do so. when flying straight in, the usual tip is to set your final landing config for speed and flaps 2 mi out. thats the same as if you were turning base to final on unicom fields.
Click to expand...

Sounds like they care ALOT about how you fly the pattern ;)
 
CTLSi said:
. . . when flying straight in, the usual tip is to set your final landing config for speed and flaps 2 mi out. thats the same as if you were turning base to final on unicom fields.
Click to expand...

I generally fly downwind 1/2 Mike from the runway, and turn base when it's 45 degrees behind me, putting my final leg at 1/2 mile.

If you're flying downwind 2miles from the runway, most GA pilots will never see you. How many hundred passengers are you carrying?

I still don't like straight ins, but sometimes they are required. Practice a few, take an instructor if you're uncomfortable. Keep a close lookout, and give accurate position reports while doing them, and be prepared to go around if someone on base doesn't see you.
 
I had sort of the same feeling when I started to fly into Class D airports during my training. It seemed to me after a few "4 mile base entries" or "long final straight ins" I just got the feel for the altitude, power, and flap settings.. just fly how they ask you to approach and you will see where you are wrong (to high/to low) then just correct it with flaps and power.. I am far from perfect on this but you will get a good feel after a couple of go arounds from being to high :)
 
SoonerPilot said:
I guess my real issue is getting the power and flap settings correct for each type of entry. If I come in on downwind, I just fly the rest of the pattern like I would normally do it at "home". On a base entry it's not clear when I should add flaps and pitch for my different airspeeds. It's even more confusing on a long straight in.

Am I over-thinking this, or are there some rules of thumb for these different types of pattern entry?
Click to expand...

honestly, it comes from practice and repetition. I still tend to come in a little high when entering the pattern on base or final.
 
Very early on in my PPL training, I was on a check flight with another CFI, on a base course to my home field and I deviated my course so I would be assigned a downwind when calling the tower up.

The CFI asked me why I did this, and I told him "Because it's easier to judge the traffic pattern." I was immediately skooled - "That's ridiculous! A base approach is better than a downwind, and a straight in is better than a base. The object is to get down as quickly and easily as possible."

We spent the rest of the afternoon practicing leaving the Class D and re-entering on base and straight in approaches.
 
Try to setup a good approach to the runway, otherwise go around and then you will have your normal pattern. No stress that way because you get a practice shot then you get what you know.
 
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. The throttle and flap handle are tools, nothing more. You use those tools to put the airplane where it needs to be; that will vary from airport to airport and controller to controller. Nothing cut-and-dried about it.

Bob Gardner
 
That's why you should practice,the different types of entry and landing. Practice makes for better pilot skills.
 
Class B, C and D tower doesnt want you calling your base. They issue an instruction, you reply with a readback. So you only speak after being spoken to. At least thats the way I understand it.

At my local class D, they tell me to enter a downwind for 29R (or whichever) so I say "enterning a downwind for 29right". Then he calls my base and final.

If its straight in, look at your GPS distance to the airport. Now look at your altitude. If you are 2000' AGL and 5 miles out, divide 2000 by 5 and you get 400fpm at 60knots. At 90 knots you need 600fpm. Etc. 4-500fpm is what most small GA planes come down at, yours may be different, if so adjust to it. That 2000' up and 5 miles out is about right for most. Keep in mind the GPS distance is to the middle of the airport. So come down a bit steeper. Better to come in a little short and add power than to overshoot in most cases.

Keep the rubber side down!
 
FlyingMonkey said:
My CFI taught me to unfold the final, base and partial downwind leg into a straight in approach. Coming straight in, you can visually spot where your normal base leg would be. If you unfold that so it is in line with the final leg and then add another equal length, that gives you a good idea of where you can start descent from TPA and start to use flaps, etc. It would be about the same point as you would be abeam the numbers on a regular pattern. At least, that's the way I've been doing it but I only have about 70 hours.
Click to expand...

Agree. A typical pattern from midfield downwind to touchdown is theoretically 3 miles. So unfold it for a long final (3 miles = midfield downwind, 2 miles = base, 1 mile = final).
 
You are expected to make the appropriate pattern turns for whatever leg you happen to be in unless told otherwise. You do NOT wait for the tower to you to turn base or final. If needed, the controller will say "I'll call your base", in which case you wait for them to tell you.

When you call from 10 miles out, they'll tell you how they want you to join the pattern. And it will be whatever is most direct to the runway.

If you're coming from the east to land on 18, you're just going to be told "report right base". You're expected to line up on a nice long right base and call when you're on it. They'll clear you to land.

If you're coming from the north, they'll just tell you to make a straight in to 18 and report [distance] or some visual landmark. And again will clear you land after that.

If you're coming from an opposite direction, they'll tell you to report downwind. At which point, again, they'll clear you to land.

Regardless,
 
Idle and full flaps on the 182Q will make it go down pretty fast.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Class B, C and D tower doesnt want you calling your base. They issue an instruction, you reply with a readback. So you only speak after being spoken to. At least thats the way I understand it.

At my local class D, they tell me to enter a downwind for 29R (or whichever) so I say "enterning a downwind for 29right". Then he calls my base and final.

If its straight in, look at your GPS distance to the airport. Now look at your altitude. If you are 2000' AGL and 5 miles out, divide 2000 by 5 and you get 400fpm at 60knots. At 90 knots you need 600fpm. Etc. 4-500fpm is what most small GA planes come down at, yours may be different, if so adjust to it. That 2000' up and 5 miles out is about right for most. Keep in mind the GPS distance is to the middle of the airport. So come down a bit steeper. Better to come in a little short and add power than to overshoot in most cases.

Keep the rubber side down!
Click to expand...

Not quite. ATC may tell you to enter the pattern anywhere along the way and if at anytime, including initial contact they clear you to land YOU decide the rest, including the base to final turn.

In fact most often you get a clearance to land on initial call to the tower unless the patterns are too busy to allow it. Simply fly and listen. If things change, they will tell you to extend, or they will say 'will call your base' in the case of other aircraft on final ahead of you.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Class B, C and D tower doesnt want you calling your base. They issue an instruction, you reply with a readback. So you only speak after being spoken to. At least thats the way I understand it.
Click to expand...
It depends actually. I've been to quiet Class D airports where I've been cleared to land 10 miles out. If the pattern in busy, they might tell you to extend your downwind.
 
CTLSi said:
ATC doesn't care how you fly the pattern as long as you are at correct pattern altitude, and do not try to land without clearance. the main thing you should care about is having the proper speed and final landing config flap settings on final. you do that on any field you land on, so just do it when you get clearance to land.

ATC will tell you where to enter the pattern, which direction to fly, which runway you will use, and possibly delay your base turn dependent on traffic. be ready to extend downwind to base, and be ready to fly straight in if told to do so. when flying straight in, the usual tip is to set your final landing config for speed and flaps 2 mi out. thats the same as if you were turning base to final on unicom fields.
Click to expand...
Final configuration and speed two miles out? What are you flying, a 747?

CTSLi is once again showing his lack of experience and knowledge. Don't listen to him. Listen instead to the others suggesting you mentally unwrap the pattern and imagine yourself flying through a series of gates where you'll be at the same speed/configuration/altitude as you would if you would be that much flying distance from the runway in a rectangular pattern.
 
It also worth mentioning now. And don't take this the wrong way, because I know it isn't you, it is a training issue. And certainly not just your CFI. People get so hung up on position / speed / flaps repeat, that they become robots to it. If the only way you know how to land a plane is in a pattern using set speeds and configurations, you're missing like 75% of flying the plane. Because you're not flying the plane, you're just repeating a bunch of pre-canned steps. You're screwed the moment you don't have a pre-canned landing.

Don't just unwrap the pattern. Fly the plane. Want to stay higher a little longer, you can do that, just descend faster. Want to make the pattern tighter, go ahead. You can go from no fast and no flaps to slow and full flaps very quickly. Way faster than you ever would in a typical pattern. And some day you might need to. You should be able to make an approach to landing from basically anywhere, at any altitude, any speed, any configuration. And be able to picture where to go and what to do to make it happen.
 
Instead of doing all the mental gyrations, you should have a feel for when you are "in range" of your landing (like within ~1 mile of the field).

If you are doing a straight in, you should be able to see your landing spot on the runway. Aim for it, keeping it at the same spot on your windscreen and just follow the airplane to the tarmac.

If you are doing a base entry, look for a spot ~1/2 mile to the side of the runway extended centerline (beyond the centerline) and aim for it, just as you would do on a straight in, except turn to final at the appropriate point, shifting your aim from the previous spot to the landing spot on the runway. The only technicality to worry about is your airspeed -- don't let it get too slow (~1.2Vso).

It works
 
Let's see, what am I doing 2 miles out on a straight in approach... I'm probably not even to TPA yet let alone transitioning from cruise. Heck, I can go from cruise at TPA, to gear down, to full flaps in the Arrow with all whites on the PAPI and still land short if I don't keep some power in. I gotta think one would fly a light sport in a fairly tight pattern.
 
CTLSi said:
Test it for yourself. I fly in Class C, D and non towered regularly. Much of the time you will get cleared for a straight in approach after initial call to the tower. The 2mi rule works well.
Click to expand...

I've "tested it" and it doesn't take 1.8 miles to slow from 90 knots to 65 knots...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top