&*#% security TFR

wsuffa

wsuffa

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 22, 2005
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Bill S.
The No Fly zone encompasses HEF by less than a runway length. HEF is already in the SFRA. You think they could make a cutout exception? Nooooo, apparently they can't. Instead, they'd rather shut down the airport and kill commerce at one of the few GA fields near DC. On a SATURDAY. :mad::mad::mad:

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The problem with democracy is folks often get the government they deserve.
 
Since when does Government care about commerce. It's all about protecting whover the current MFWIICC is even though we have a very well delineated succession line.
 
If a America votes in a different POTUS, I'm really curious if the current travelling circus antics will continue.
 
Yes, they will. These restrictions are set by the Secret Service, and the President, if he's even aware of them, is not likely to be able to affect them.
 
wsuffa said:
The No Fly zone encompasses HEF by less than a runway length. HEF is already in the SFRA. You think they could make a cutout exception? Nooooo, apparently they can't. Instead, they'd rather shut down the airport and kill commerce at one of the few GA fields near DC. On a SATURDAY. :mad::mad::mad:

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Geez.... You live in the shadow of DC and are amazed at the overreaching security arm of big government.:dunno::dunno:...

As to your post.... Yeah ... any rational person would see an outlying airport just inside the TFR and adjust the boundry to clear it...:yesnod:....

But the trick here is finding a human being that's rational within 500 miles of the capital.:idea:
 
I feel your pain, but imagine the language that would accompany a cut out like you describe, and the effectiveness, (in the eyes of the enforcers) of that action. I know you are most likely a considerate and informed pilot, but there are a whole flock of clueless idiots out there who can't decipher even the simplest of TFR instructions. (Witness the frequent violation in DC) Clear unambiguous areas are easier to enforce and easier to defend in court when violated.
I flew several TFR enforcement missions around KSC for shuttle operations and we regularly encountered clueless pilots who I am sure couldn't fix their location within a mile. You can argue, (conclusively I think), that the TFR restrictions have gotten WAY out of hand, but keeping them simple IMHO works best for all.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I feel your pain, but imagine the language that would accompany a cut out like you describe, and the effectiveness, (in the eyes of the enforcers) of that action. I know you are most likely a considerate and informed pilot, but there are a whole flock of clueless idiots out there who can't decipher even the simplest of TFR instructions. (Witness the frequent violation in DC) Clear unambiguous areas are easier to enforce and easier to defend in court when violated.
I flew several TFR enforcement missions around KSC for shuttle operations and we regularly encountered clueless pilots who I am sure couldn't fix their location within a mile. You can argue, (conclusively I think), that the TFR restrictions have gotten WAY out of hand, but keeping them simple IMHO works best for all.
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Disagree to a point. They've done cutouts for other locations (look at W00 and the DC FRZ as an example). And any pilot that operates at HEF already has to follow the SFRA procedures & stay out of the Dulles Class B.... add in the fact that it's a towered airport (this no-fly zone bisects the Class Delta) and the likelihood of compliance is very, very high.

This could EASILY have been crafted to avoid a shutdown.
 
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wsuffa said:
Disagree to a point. They've done cutouts for other locations (look at W00 and the DC FRZ as an example). And any pilot that operates at HEF already has to follow the SFRA procedures & stay out of the Dulles Class B.... add in the fact that it's a towered airport and the likelihood of compliance is very, very high.
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Totally agree. But those who build TFRs are not in the business of serving anything but their mission. And the cutouts you mentioned were legislated after much gnashing of teeth, and are permanent. Temporary means just that and expediency for the designing agency is paramount. And as some wise soul in a previous post noted, rationality is a short commodity in the area.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If a America votes in a different POTUS, I'm really curious if the current travelling circus antics will continue.
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Of course it will. We had exactly the same nonsense with W. We even had to move all our cars out of the office parking lot because W was giving a speech at a print shop next door. I had seen the TFR centered on the intersection nearby, but it wasn't until they secret service showed up at our office that I realized how close it was. We all had wishful thinking that a Democratic president would possibly eschew such nonsense, but Presidents come and Presidents go but the Secret Service bureaucracy lives forever. I think the last person to tell them to shove it was Harry Truman.

Even before 9/11 there was always a small 1500 x 3 mile TFR that followed the president around. It's just that nobody got worked up over it.

Obama by the way is over at Centreville HighSchool. At least it doesn't start until 3:15PM.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Totally agree. But those who build TFRs are not in the business of serving anything but their mission. And the cutouts you mentioned were legislated after much gnashing of teeth, and are permanent. Temporary means just that and expediency for the designing agency is paramount. And as some wise soul in a previous post noted, rationality is a short commodity in the area.
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I am quite aware of that.

And it's perfect evidence as to how certain folks in government have lost sight of the fact that they've lost sight of the fact that they serve the public, too. This could EASILY have been crafted to minimize impact on HEF with NO impact on the mission at hand.

flyingron said:
Obama by the way is over at Centreville HighSchool. At least it doesn't start until 3:15PM.
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and runs until 6 PM. Pretty much prime time on a Saturday for training flights and other operations at a GA airport.
 
EppyGA said:
Since when does Government care about commerce. It's all about protecting whover the current MFWIICC is even though we have a very well delineated succession line.
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My my my....I haven't seen/used that acronym in years!
 
Love that acronym. Hadn't used it in a long time. It may need to make a comeback in my vocabulary for a while. ;)
 
He should stay his ass home, and do his job.

My Dad would have told him " you ain't going no where until your work is done."

BTDT
 
Presidential TFRs are one thing. But when the guy is operating as a candidate he doesn't deserve anything more than any of us would get. Nor should the cost of security be born by the locals. That's just BS.
He is operating as a candidate. Let him pay ALL the associated costs including lost revenue!
Mr President is just one guy. No different than me or you. Other than his special security status, he really does not deserve special treatment. It's about time he be treated just like joe average instead of something special.
 
Like I said, nothing W didn't do before him.
 
John, I understand what you're saying, but the President is ALWAYS the President, whether he's campaigning or not. Trying to draw a distinction between "campaigning" and "president" is a Sisyphean task.
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't matter who. they should stay home until their work is finished.
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Well, then, term limit them to one term instead of two. Simple solution! Until you do that, at least some of their energy the first term is going to be getting re-elected, and some of the energy the last term (be it a 1 or 2 term limit) is going to be getting someone with comparable goals elected!

I want everyone to note that this is REGARDLESS of party! I DON'T want this going SZ!
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, then, term limit them to one term instead of two. Simple solution! Until you do that, at least some of their energy the first term is going to be getting re-elected, and some of the energy the last term (be it a 1 or 2 term limit) is going to be getting someone with comparable goals elected!

I want everyone to note that this is REGARDLESS of party! I DON'T want this going SZ!
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Several levels of common sense in your post, Grant. Thanks.
 
Personally, I know this will never happen, but I would like to see all of the members of our government go back to being normal people. George Washington would never have elevated himself the way our politicians, regardless of party, do today.
 
wsuffa said:
Disagree to a point. They've done cutouts for other locations (look at W00 and the DC FRZ as an example). And any pilot that operates at HEF already has to follow the SFRA procedures & stay out of the Dulles Class B.... add in the fact that it's a towered airport (this no-fly zone bisects the Class Delta) and the likelihood of compliance is very, very high.

This could EASILY have been crafted to avoid a shutdown.
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Actually now that you mention it there was a TFR near KADW that should have affected W00 but they gave us a nice option of departing to the north to avoid it. I'll find the map and repost later. Nice cutout that caused a mile of heading north and then a right turn to the Bay.
 
For every pop up tfr, there should be a pop up no drive zone too. I would love to see what happens when they shut down absolutely all traffic within a 30 mile radius of NYC or DC or Dallas for a week. Need to go to the supermarket, walk. Supermarket is out of food, tough, wait until the TDR goes away next month or find yourself face down on the pavement at gunpoint for being a terrorist threat.

The day after the TDR lets up, the front lawn of the US capitol would likely be filled with extremely angry people carrying torches and pitchforks. Then they would have to create a permanent no walking zone...which will likely get stormed anyway by the torch and pitchfork crowd. Torches and pitchforks might be the best solution to the whole problem anyway...
 
Well, there is a big motorcade of black suburbans that follow around the pres when he's moving on the ground. (I inadvertantly entered one of these back when I had a black suburban).
 
fgcason said:
For every pop up tfr, there should be a pop up no drive zone too. I would love to see what happens when they shut down absolutely all traffic within a 30 mile radius of NYC or DC or Dallas for a week.
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The German Police(polizei) shut down part of the autobahn when the President flew into Ramstein Air Base in the summer 2009. The A-6 Autobahn runs east/west and just south of the base. I missed out, but heard it was a mess.
 
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Doggtyred said:
Didn't we think the same thing would happen around LAST election time?
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Yeah we did and it has only gotten worse. They ain't kings and don't deserve to be treated as royalty but the Secret Service seems to think they are doing us a favor. And like I said, when he's out campaigning, he doesn't deserve it.
While I don't begrudge his land army of security or a reasonable TFR (say 3 miles), denying aviation "freedom of movement" and their ability to make a living seems a bit too much.
 
Here's the real question about this security theater. Anyone here believe they would ever shoot a GA aircraft out of the sky?
 
EppyGA said:
Here's the real question about this security theater. Anyone here believe they would ever shoot a GA aircraft out of the sky?
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Ever? Yes.
 
No doubt they would.

Your life -- is not worth even a threat to a formerly underemployed community organizer and nearly unpublished Harvard Law Review editor from Chicago who works for you.

(Feel free to change the above to the wimpy credentials of any recent President.)

They are important. You are not. Keep repeating this to yourself until you get it. This is their message.
 
fgcason said:
For every pop up tfr, there should be a pop up no drive zone too. I would love to see what happens when they shut down absolutely all traffic within a 30 mile radius of NYC or DC or Dallas for a week. Need to go to the supermarket, walk. Supermarket is out of food, tough, wait until the TDR goes away next month or find yourself face down on the pavement at gunpoint for being a terrorist threat.
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One time the POTUS was in town they shut down one of our town's busiest freeways at rush hour on a Friday night for his motorcade. Tied traffic up in knots. Folks didn't like it, but no one was ready for revolt.
 
steingar said:
One time the POTUS was in town they shut down one of our town's busiest freeways at rush hour on a Friday night for his motorcade. Tied traffic up in knots. Folks didn't like it, but no one was ready for revolt.
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Therein lies the problem. :mad2:
 
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