Sectional Question

DFH65

DFH65

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DFH65
Was looking at a sectional and saw this. I interpret this to simply mean that the area dashed magenta line attached to the class D airspace is considered class C from the surface to the top of the class D. Is that correct?

albanysectional_zps58bc5f69.jpg
 
That was kind of a bad place to put "Albany Class C." The dashed magneta line shows Class E from the surface when Schenectady Tower closes. You'll see a lot of those around towered airports in order to accommodate instrument procedures/approaches. The "Albany Class C" is just telling you the airspace that is shown by the solid magenta lines.
 
OK, that makes sense. I understood the approaches to class D but the Class C marking threw me off. Thanks.
 
jordane93 said:
That was kind of a bad place to put "Albany Class C." The dashed magneta line shows Class E from the surface when Schenectady Tower closes. You'll see a lot of those around towered airports in order to accommodate instrument procedures/approaches. The "Albany Class C" is just telling you the airspace that is shown by the solid magenta lines.
Click to expand...

It doesn't help that the VOR's north indicator line (whatever you call it) looks like it's a direct line from that "Albany Class C" label to the airport.

Oh -- and I don't think the class E surface area only applies when the tower is closed as you mentioned. Presumably that area is a class E surface area at all times unless otherwise noted somewhere I missed.
 
Class E Sfc approach boxes like that are not that uncommon. It indicates the Class D KSCH approach from the north to the edge of their airspace is to be 3-152 to the ground instead of 1 - clear of clouds as G would allow.

Want another example of the box? Take a look at Class C KRNO.
 
dukeblue219 said:
It doesn't help that the VOR's north indicator line (whatever you call it) looks like it's a direct line from that "Albany Class C" label to the airport.

Oh -- and I don't think the class E surface area only applies when the tower is closed as you mentioned. Presumably that area is a class E surface area at all times unless otherwise noted somewhere I missed.
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Just off the left side of the chart excerpt is a portion of "See NOTAMS/Directory for class D/E effective hours." The directory is, of course, the A/FD, and its entry is exactly the same. The changeover times are when the tower opens/closes.

Bob Gardner
 
Good information guys. Thanks for the read.

Bob, your book "Say Again, Please" is great. It's really helped make sense of airspace and communications scenarios.

Benjamin
 
DFH65 said:
Was looking at a sectional and saw this. I interpret this to simply mean that the area dashed magenta line attached to the class D airspace is considered class C from the surface to the top of the class D. Is that correct?
Click to expand...

No. The dashed magenta lines indicate a Class E arrival extension to the Schenectady Class D surface area. It's unrelated to the Albany Class C airspace. Sectional chart production is part science, part art. The person that chose to place "ALBANY CLASS C" within that arrival extension is not much of an artist.
 
jordane93 said:
That was kind of a bad place to put "Albany Class C." The dashed magneta line shows Class E from the surface when Schenectady Tower closes. You'll see a lot of those around towered airports in order to accommodate instrument procedures/approaches. The "Albany Class C" is just telling you the airspace that is shown by the solid magenta lines.
Click to expand...

Actually, the dashed magenta line shows Class E from the surface when Schenectady Tower is open. Arrival extensions are tied to the core airspace. When Schenectady tower is closed the Class D surface area becomes Class G and so does the arrival extension.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, the dashed magenta line shows Class E from the surface when Schenectady Tower is open. Arrival extensions are tied to the core airspace. When Schenectady tower is closed the Class D surface area becomes Class G and so does the arrival extension.
Click to expand...

Where did you get this fact from? I just checked the A/FD and the Aero Chart User's Guide as well as the AIM and there is no guidance that states when the Delta tower closes, the Echo goes to Golf.

The AIM provides this:

e. Types of Class E Airspace:
1. Surface area designated for an airport. When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures.
2. Extension to a surface area. There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.

Can you provide your source? Thank you.
 
CFI.William said:
Where did you get this fact from? I just checked the A/FD and the Aero Chart User's Guide as well as the AIM and there is no guidance that states when the Delta tower closes, the Echo goes to Golf.

The AIM provides this:

e. Types of Class E Airspace:
1. Surface area designated for an airport. When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures.
2. Extension to a surface area. There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.

Can you provide your source? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Got this from AeroNav's digital products page. Coverage of SCH is on two pages...at the top of the second page, look at what it says after Airspace.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/24JUL2014/ne_227_24JUL2014.pdf

Bob Gardner
 
The class E surface area is class E 24/7. Depending on what the AF/D says, the class D ring could be E or G when the tower is closed.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The class E surface area is class E 24/7. Depending on what the AF/D says, the class D ring could be E or G when the tower is closed.
Click to expand...

I think that when KSCH (Schenectady) closes and the Class D cylinder reverts to Class G per the AFD, the Class E arrival extension reverts to Class G too.

Per the General Information section in the front of the AFD, "SVC 'TIMES' INCLUDE ALL ASSOCIATED ARRIVAL EXTENSIONS" such that an arrival extension changes status in lock-step with the airports main surface area:

AFD_Info_re_Class_E_Extensions.jpg
 
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CFI.William said:
Where did you get this fact from? I just checked the A/FD and the Aero Chart User's Guide as well as the AIM and there is no guidance that states when the Delta tower closes, the Echo goes to Golf.

The AIM provides this:

e. Types of Class E Airspace:
1. Surface area designated for an airport. When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures.
2. Extension to a surface area. There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.

Can you provide your source? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Arrival extensions to a surface area do not exist independently of the core surface area. Think about it for a moment, what would be the purpose of a stand-alone arrival extension?

Controlled airspace areas are designated in Order JO 7400.9 Airspace Designations and Reporting Points. Here are the Airspace Legal Descriptions for Schenectady:

AEA NY D Schenectady, NY
Schenectady County Airport, NY
(lat. 42°51'10"N., long. 73°55'46"W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface to and including 2,900 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of Schenectady County Airport, excluding the portion that coincides with the Albany, NY, Class C airspace area. This Class D airspace area is effective during specific dates and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The specific date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.

AEA NY E4 Schenectady, NY
Schenectady County Airport, NY
(lat. 42°51'10"N., long. 73°55'46"W.)
Hunter NDB
(lat. 42°51'11"N., long. 73°56'03"W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface within 2.5 miles each side of a 032° bearing from the Hunter NDB extending from the 4.3-mile radius of Schenectady County Airport to 7 miles northeast of the NDB. This Class E airspace area is effective during specific dates and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The specific date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.
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Note that both airspace areas are designated part-time and that these are the only areas published for KSCH. That's because the airspace becomes Class G when the tower is closed. If it became Class E when the tower was not in operation there would be another Class E surface published with the combined lateral limits of the Class D surface area and the Class E extensions. Such is the case at Binghamton:

AEA NY D Binghamton, NY
Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport, Binghamton, NY
(lat. 42°12'31''N., long. 75°58’47''W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface to and including 4,100 feet MSL within a 4.3-mile radius of the Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport. This Class D airspace area is effective during the specific days and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective days and times will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.


AEA NY E4 Binghamton, NY
Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport, Binghamton, NY
(lat. 42°12'31''N., long. 75°58’47''W.)
Binghamton VORTAC
(lat. 42°09'27''N., long. 76°08’11''W.)
SMITE LOM
(lat. 42°06'17''N., long. 75°53’29''W.)
Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport ILS Runway 34 Localizer
(lat. 42°13'12''N., long. 75°59’15''W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface within 1.6 miles each side of the 070° bearing from the airport to 9.3 miles northeast of the airport and within 1.8 miles each side of the Binghamton VORTAC 067° bearing from the VORTAC to the 4.3-mile radius to the airport and within 1.8 miles each side of the Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport ILS LOC SE course extending from the 4.3-mile radius of the airport to 1.8 miles SE of the SMITE LOM. This Class E Surface airspace area is effective during the specific days and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective days and times will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.
Click to expand...

I don't believe it's mentioned in any publications directed at pilots but there are sub-classes of controlled airspace. E4 airspace areas are extensions to Class D surface areas, like the two mentioned above. E2 airspace areas are Class E surface areas, like this one at Binghamton during the hours the tower is closed:

AEA NY E2 Binghamton, NY
Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport, Binghamton, NY
(lat. 42°12'31''N., long. 75°58’47''W.)
Binghamton VORTAC
(lat. 42°09'27''N., long. 76°08’11''W.)
SMITE LOM
(lat. 42°06'17''N., long. 75°53’29''W.)
ILS Runway 34 Localizer
(lat. 42°13'12''N., long. 75°59’15''W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface of the Earth within a 4.3-mile radius of the Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport and within 1.6 miles each side of the 070° bearing from the airport to 9.3 miles northeast of the airport and within 1.8 miles each side of the Binghamton VORTAC 067° bearing from the VORTAC to the 4.3-mile radius to the airport and within 1.8 miles each side of the Binghamton Regional/Edwin A. Link Field Airport ILS LOC SE course extending from the 4.3-mile radius of the airport to 1.8 miles SE of the SMITE LOM. This Class E Surface airspace area is effective during the specific days and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective days and times will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.
Click to expand...

Compare the above descriptions with those of a full-time Class D surface area with arrival extensions, Portsmouth International:

ANE NH D Portsmouth, NH
Portsmouth, Pease International Tradeport, NH
(lat. 43°04'40"N., long. 70°49'24"W.)
Eliot, Littlebrook Air Park, ME
(lat. 43°08'35"N., long. 70°46'20"W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface to and including 2,600 feet MSL within a 4.5-mile radius of the Pease International Tradeport, excluding that airspace within a 1.5-mile radius of the Littlebrook Air Park.


ANE NH E4 Portsmouth, NH
Portsmouth, Pease International Tradeport, NH
(lat. 43°04'40"N., long. 70°49'24"W.)
Pease VORTAC
(lat. 43°05'04"N., long. 70°49'55"W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface within 1.8 miles on each side of the extended centerline of Runway 16 at Portsmouth, Pease International Tradeport (Pease) extending from a 4.5-mile radius of Pease to 6.4 miles southeast of Pease, and within 1.8 miles on each side of the Pease VORTAC 146° radial extending from a 4.5-mile radius of Pease to 7 miles southeast of the Pease VORTAC, and within 1.8 miles on each side of the Pease VORTAC 338° radial extending from a 4.5-mile radius of Pease to 7 miles northwest of the Pease VORTAC.
Click to expand...

Note the absence of the "part-time" language from these areas.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The class E surface area is class E 24/7. Depending on what the AF/D says, the class D ring could be E or G when the tower is closed.
Click to expand...

No it isn't:

AEA NY E4 Schenectady, NY
Schenectady County Airport, NY
(lat. 42°51'10"N., long. 73°55'46"W.)
Hunter NDB
(lat. 42°51'11"N., long. 73°56'03"W.)

That airspace extending upward from the surface within 2.5 miles each side of a 032° bearing from the Hunter NDB extending from the 4.3-mile radius of Schenectady County Airport to 7 miles northeast of the NDB. This Class E airspace area is effective during specific dates and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The specific date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I think that when KSCH (Schenectady) closes and the Class D cylinder reverts to Class G per the AFD, the Class E arrival extension reverts to Class G too.

Per the General Information section in the front of the AFD, "SVC 'TIMES' INCLUDE ALL ASSOCIATED ARRIVAL EXTENSIONS" such that an arrival extension changes status in lock-step with the airports main surface area:

AFD_Info_re_Class_E_Extensions.jpg
Click to expand...

Well done.
 
eetrojan, that's what I was looking for. Thank you.

Steven P McNicoll, I do agree with you that there would be little point to keep that extension as echo when the tower closes. I just needed to find the source to support that.
 
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