Seaplane insurance: Straight floats vs. Amphibs / new pilot

[VoiceOfReason]

i'm over half way to my PPL and starting the thought process / preliminary shopping, which currently has me in an amphibious plane of some sort, perhaps a 206 or my current favorite, a DHC Beaver, on Amphibs so I can leave it south in winter and use runways near home when not on water.

INSURANCE--- what should I be expecting here ? As a new pilot, i'm told the insurer may want to see some hours first but is it different if it's wheels vs. straight floats vs. Amphibs ? What are normal expectations ?

Recognizing that whatever I buy will likely need some work (why does everyone wait till they're timed out on the motor to sell?!?) it could make sense to buy something sooner than later as the "project" time may be slow if shops are busy.

I do realize it will cost premium $ as a newer pilot, but how much 'extra' and what will they tolerate from a new pilot ?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Wheels vs straight floats isn't too bad going from tailwheel to floats for insurance. Amphibs are double or more for insurance due to the dangers of getting the gear in the wrong position. You may not be insurable as a new pilot in something like a Beaver, it will also be highly age dependent, as older pilots are getting price out of insurance altogether.

 

[mondtster]

Do you have float time now? Or how are you planning on getting some?

Generally speaking, float flying is a bit more of a high risk activity and the insurance rates reflect this. As was already mentioned, amphibious floats also drive the insurance rates higher and the question of how much amphibious float time you have may come up at application/renewal time. Insurance rates will be highly variable depending on what you’re trying to insure, how much it’s worth, and how much time you have. At a minimum I’d expect an insurance premium of $5,000. Probably higher (in some cases much higher).

Do you truly have a need for floats? Wheel planes are far more useful unless you live in an area where float planes are common or have a reason to go somewhere where floats are the only practical means of getting there.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I have zero float time. I visited jack brown's seaplane base and will do that or something like it, once I have my PPL in hand.

I do not *have* to have a floatplane, it is what I want. I live on a lake and have a cottage on a lake, 200 miles away see where i'm goin' w/ all of this ? I also want to have a hangar near home so thus wheels (amphib) ticks all my boxes.
Lastly, i'm 100% cool w/ paying my awesome CFI to hang out with me as I build some hours. BUT-- how many is that ? is the reason for the post

 

[mondtster]

How many hours with an instructor or mentor is something you’re going to have to ask the insurance company you work with. Personally, I’d suggest finishing your private certificate on floats if that is what you think you want to do.

Floats are enjoyable and can be convenient for things like the lake house. But you had better make sure you can land on the lake you have a house on and you had better have a good support base back at home for a float plane. Amphibious floats make things easier if you’re not in an area with a lot of float activity or in an area that you can’t land on water at home.

My point was, while the idea of flying floats is fun, float planes take a lot more time and effort to deal with compared to the typical wheel plane. You don’t just pull up to the hangar, drag the plane out and go fly in short order. Planning and coordination is involved and it can kill a lot of the excitement for flying.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Before you get too tied up in your dream, check on the legality of seaplane operations where you're at and where you're going.

 

[Zeldman]

check on the legality of seaplane operations where you're at and where you're going.

And check neighbors.

As much as I am aviation friendly, I once spent a summer living next to a lake in Alaska and the float guys started engines at 4am. EVERY MORNING. It did not take long to wear out my love for float planes. Thank goodness summer only lasted 100 days...

 

[dbahn]

I've been told to figure 10% of hull value for yearly premiums on amphibs. That's a huge premium for something like a C206 with a value of $500k, i.e. $50k per year! Straight floats are considerably less, but you also have to factor in maintenance and fuel options, both of which can be a challenge on straight floats. (I figured I hauled about 28,000 gallons of fuel onto the wings of our PA12, five gallons at a time.)

 

[Dana]

I wonder what the accident rate is for seaplane operations vs. retractable land ops? You'd think that amphibs might be safer since you're not landing on water all the time.

Of course having wheels adds an element of risk to water landings if you forget to put the wheels up. I know a guy who did that twice, nice guy but he was accident prone in general...

 

[dbahn]

The problem with a gear-down landing in water is that the plane is usually a total loss, and the fatality rate is much higher than the corresponding gear up landing in a retractable land plane. A gear up landing in a landplane doesn't even always qualify as an accident.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I would be surprised if a new private pilot can even get insurance at any price for an amphibious float plane.

 

[dbahn]

I would be surprised if a new private pilot can even get insurance at any price for an amphibious float plane.

There's a crossover point where self-insurance is the better choice, but unfortunately that also applies to many highly experienced pilots with abundant float plane time. It's a roll of the dice no matter how you approach it.

 

[amox]

As a point of comparison, with no float time my insurance quote was 8% of hull value on straight floats in AK. That was 5 years ago or so.

 

[Stemme]

As a point of comparison, with no float time my insurance quote was 8% of hull value on straight floats in AK. That was 5 years ago or so.

Flew Lake Amphibians for 30 years, took my private and single engine sea in the Lake. 1000s of hours and in that time never bought hull insurance as it was too expensive. For liability coverage had to take an annual check ride from insurance company approved instructor. They never quoted a break for time in type. Literally saved several hundred thousand dollars. On every takeoff and landing fully understood big bucks were on the line. Felt like Las Vegas.

 

[SamSES]

This wasn’t what I was looking for, shopping for a new policy myself, but I got a chuckle out of this, so thought I would help

i'm over half way to my PPL and starting the thought process / preliminary shopping, which currently has me in an amphibious plane of some sort, perhaps a 206 or my current favorite, a DHC Beaver, on Amphibs so I can leave it south in winter and use runways near home when not on water.


INSURANCE--- what should I be expecting here ? As a new pilot, i'm told the insurer may want to see some hours first but is it different if it's wheels vs. straight floats vs. Amphibs ? What are normal expectations ?


Recognizing that whatever I buy will likely need some work (why does everyone wait till they're timed out on the motor to sell?!?) it could make sense to buy something sooner than later as the "project" time may be slow if shops are busy.


I do realize it will cost premium $ as a newer pilot, but how much 'extra' and what will they tolerate from a new pilot ?

Ok…


If you are serious


Find a good FLOAT PLANE CFI, get on the seaplane pilots association and start searching schools and instructors and make calls


BUY THE PLANE YOU WANT AND DO ALL YOUR TRAINING IN IT


You will probably have self insure for all your solo ops where you don’t have a EXPERIENCED SEAPLANE instructor with you


I would imagine if you end up with a 100-200hrs in the make model you will be insurable, now it’s going to be over $10k a year, but if you’re talking about buying a DHC2/206 amphib and have lake house(s) I’m guessing that’s not too much money for you


Between the two planes, the DHC2 is going to take more abuse and be more forgiving to fly, but it’s a good 20-30kts slower, cost more to buy and for sure more to maintain, also fuel and oil burn will be higher and it won’t fit in most conventional single plane GA hangars



Buying a project, unless you have worked on planes before, in which case you wouldn’t ask any of this, this is not going to save you money, it will probably cost you more shy of finding some crazy “barn yard” time capsule type deal



So if you’re serious, get on seaplanes association, make some calls, find a “mentor pilot” I’d even maybe take him on as a contractor employee for a summer, buy the plane, and start eating that elephant


Personal I love float flying, I have friends who have 182s and Bos, frankly I don’t understand the appeal for the price with most SEL GA planes, floats are a different world, and amphibs bridge the gap of straight float limitations…albeit at a weight cost

There's a crossover point where self-insurance is the better choice, but unfortunately that also applies to many highly experienced pilots with abundant float plane time. It's a roll of the dice no matter how you approach it.

No, many high time guys (me) sometimes self insure to save money, but to compare that to a fresh PPL, well it’s not a matter of saving money, it’s a matter of no one is going to write him

My point was, while the idea of flying floats is fun, float planes take a lot more time and effort to deal with compared to the typical wheel plane. You don’t just pull up to the hangar, drag the plane out and go fly in short order. Planning and coordination is involved and it can kill a lot of the excitement for flying.

That’s news to me, for a new landing site sure lots of research, up to testing the depths and everything with a canoe, but for spots you know, I fire up and go, now if it’s windy or you had a large snow melt or dry spell or a wind storm that took tree limbs off a few days ago that obviously requires more time

The problem with a gear-down landing in water is that the plane is usually a total loss, and the fatality rate is much higher than the corresponding gear up landing in a retractable land plane. A gear up landing in a landplane doesn't even always qualify as an accident.

MAYBE insurance speak that’s true, but most of the older amphibs have been on their back once

I've been told to figure 10% of hull value for yearly premiums on amphibs. That's a huge premium for something like a C206 with a value of $500k, i.e. $50k per year! Straight floats are considerably less, but you also have to factor in maintenance and fuel options, both of which can be a challenge on straight floats. (I figured I hauled about 28,000 gallons of fuel onto the wings of our PA12, five gallons at a time.)

50k a year might be true for a 135 ship, also you’re nuts if you pay half a mil for most float 206s


500k maybe a newer one, but you don’t want a bloated plane for floats, most the 206s on floats are older U206s, ether IO520s or IO550 swaps, very spartan interior, no carpet, no padded side panels, no giant motorhome looking seats etc

I wonder what the accident rate is for seaplane operations vs. retractable land ops? You'd think that amphibs might be safer since you're not landing on water all the time.


Of course having wheels adds an element of risk to water landings if you forget to put the wheels up. I know a guy who did that twice, nice guy but he was accident prone in general...

Problem is if you do land wheels down on water you might not make it, depending on your belts, physical and mental condition and the water temp


If there are old people or kids in the back, god chance you just killed them


Compare to a Bo landing wheels up, everyone just climbs out most times and WALKS away

Case and point

One thing to add about seaplane flying

Lots of people make it out to be a easy weekend checkride, this is very disingenuous

Yes, seaplane ride factories like browns will get you your SES over a weekend and a day or so, however it’s more of a BFR and a checkride photo for your Facebook

Yes you learned a couple things, had fun, got some pictures and a t shirt, but turn around and ask to rent the plane and watch them laugh at you, and this business is fine 99% of the time

They know it’s mostly pilots who want to have some fun and get a BFR and do something different

They know they won’t rent you the plane after

They know of the very few places who rent seaplanes, they won’t just cut you loose when you show up at their door ether

Of the few who might want to buy a seaplane, these are not exactly often inexpensive planes, let alone where you keep it, lest we get into the major price jump of a amphib, we’ll the bank won’t give you the loan without insurance, and after leaving jack browns, or any of the other weekend ride places, a insurance company won’t touch you, thus no loan, thus you don’t get to rip off into the wild blue with your 3 kids wife and dog in a seaplane


So the only real risk with the seaplane ride companies are the higher net worth individuals who REALLY want a seaplane are willing to self insure, most high worth folks are scared of liability so they won’t roll the dice, forward to no wild blue with just you and the kiddies

So it’s high worth people willing to self insure, so out of all the seaplane rides that’s maybe 1% ?


But for anyone who thinks takes a weekend course and confuses what they experienced with being ready to actually PIC a seaplane, it is simply not the case

OPs best bet would be to hire a seaplane CFI with time in type on a monthly rate and do all his training with him, keep paying him, or just safety pilot with a insurable seaplane pilot who doesn’t mind babysitting and maybe taking control if needed, until he has 150hrs or so, at that point he will be just good enough to probably not kill himself and good enough for a insurance company to accept for $10k plus per year

 

[flyingpreacher]

Just a thought guys, I know we are talking about some pretty big insurance premiums here, but somebody looking for a 206 on floats/amphibs or a Beaver probably has quite a bit of money to throw at this ideal. Unless the market has changed since the last time I looked, a run out beaver was going for a half mil, so tack on an overhaul and maintenance and we are talking $600k-$750k just to get going.

Thats all fine and dandy if he can make it work. Personally, I can’t even look at a Cherokee 140 if the engine is past about 1200 HSOH!

 

[SamSES]

Just a thought guys, I know we are talking about some pretty big insurance premiums here, but somebody looking for a 206 on floats/amphibs or a Beaver probably has quite a bit of money to throw at this ideal. Unless the market has changed since the last time I looked, a run out beaver was going for a half mil, so tack on an overhaul and maintenance and we are talking $600k-$750k just to get going.

Thats all fine and dandy if he can make it work. Personally, I can’t even look at a Cherokee 140 if the engine is past about 1200 HSOH!

It’s not a matter of money, going from jack browns seaplane ride to trying to insure yourself in a 206 or DHC2, they just ain’t going to write the policy

 

[mondtster]

Just a thought guys, I know we are talking about some pretty big insurance premiums here, but somebody looking for a 206 on floats/amphibs or a Beaver probably has quite a bit of money to throw at this ideal. Unless the market has changed since the last time I looked, a run out beaver was going for a half mil, so tack on an overhaul and maintenance and we are talking $600k-$750k just to get going.

Thats all fine and dandy if he can make it work. Personally, I can’t even look at a Cherokee 140 if the engine is past about 1200 HSOH!

And yet we have repeated threads on this board and others where it appears that people can afford to buy an aircraft but the brakes go on full when they’re given a mid 4 or a 5 figure insurance policy quote. Once you start straying from the smaller single engine piston land planes the policy premiums take a sharp rise and are more difficult to obtain without adequate experience. The fact that this thread exists suggests to me that there is at least some concern about ongoing costs or eligibility for coverage.

The OP would probably be best served by buying something like a Super Cub on floats to start out in, finish his certificate in that, and fly it for a while. Then “graduate” to something like a 206 or Beaver as desired. Or, they could just buy whatever they want and either run liability or not in motion coverage only and hope nothing goes wrong. But even not in motion coverage can get fairly expensive depending what you’re insuring and where it’s located.

 

[Wagondriver]

I was over 800 hours, instrumental rated, seaplane rated with under 10 hours, commercial, 600 hours tailwheel, and 25 hours in a husky. That same husky on amphibs was very nearly a no go for insurance. It took the owner quite a bit of effort to get the insurance to cover me. I have no idea what it cost.

 

[X3 Skier]

Falcon Insurance has a tie in with the Seaplane Pilots Association. Ask them.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

This wasn’t what I was looking for, shopping for a new policy myself, but I got a chuckle out of this, so thought I would help






Ok…


If you are serious


Find a good FLOAT PLANE CFI, get on the seaplane pilots association and start searching schools and instructors and make calls


BUY THE PLANE YOU WANT AND DO ALL YOUR TRAINING IN IT


You will probably have self insure for all your solo ops where you don’t have a EXPERIENCED SEAPLANE instructor with you


I would imagine if you end up with a 100-200hrs in the make model you will be insurable, now it’s going to be over $10k a year, but if you’re talking about buying a DHC2/206 amphib and have lake house(s) I’m guessing that’s not too much money for you


Between the two planes, the DHC2 is going to take more abuse and be more forgiving to fly, but it’s a good 20-30kts slower, cost more to buy and for sure more to maintain, also fuel and oil burn will be higher and it won’t fit in most conventional single plane GA hangars



Buying a project, unless you have worked on planes before, in which case you wouldn’t ask any of this, this is not going to save you money, it will probably cost you more shy of finding some crazy “barn yard” time capsule type deal



So if you’re serious, get on seaplanes association, make some calls, find a “mentor pilot” I’d even maybe take him on as a contractor employee for a summer, buy the plane, and start eating that elephant


Personal I love float flying, I have friends who have 182s and Bos, frankly I don’t understand the appeal for the price with most SEL GA planes, floats are a different world, and amphibs bridge the gap of straight float limitations…albeit at a weight cost





No, many high time guys (me) sometimes self insure to save money, but to compare that to a fresh PPL, well it’s not a matter of saving money, it’s a matter of no one is going to write him






That’s news to me, for a new landing site sure lots of research, up to testing the depths and everything with a canoe, but for spots you know, I fire up and go, now if it’s windy or you had a large snow melt or dry spell or a wind storm that took tree limbs off a few days ago that obviously requires more time






MAYBE insurance speak that’s true, but most of the older amphibs have been on their back once







50k a year might be true for a 135 ship, also you’re nuts if you pay half a mil for most float 206s


500k maybe a newer one, but you don’t want a bloated plane for floats, most the 206s on floats are older U206s, ether IO520s or IO550 swaps, very spartan interior, no carpet, no padded side panels, no giant motorhome looking seats etc





Problem is if you do land wheels down on water you might not make it, depending on your belts, physical and mental condition and the water temp


If there are old people or kids in the back, god chance you just killed them


Compare to a Bo landing wheels up, everyone just climbs out most times and WALKS away

Case and point

One thing to add about seaplane flying

Lots of people make it out to be a easy weekend checkride, this is very disingenuous

Yes, seaplane ride factories like browns will get you your SES over a weekend and a day or so, however it’s more of a BFR and a checkride photo for your Facebook

Yes you learned a couple things, had fun, got some pictures and a t shirt, but turn around and ask to rent the plane and watch them laugh at you, and this business is fine 99% of the time

They know it’s mostly pilots who want to have some fun and get a BFR and do something different

They know they won’t rent you the plane after

They know of the very few places who rent seaplanes, they won’t just cut you loose when you show up at their door ether

Of the few who might want to buy a seaplane, these are not exactly often inexpensive planes, let alone where you keep it, lest we get into the major price jump of a amphib, we’ll the bank won’t give you the loan without insurance, and after leaving jack browns, or any of the other weekend ride places, a insurance company won’t touch you, thus no loan, thus you don’t get to rip off into the wild blue with your 3 kids wife and dog in a seaplane


So the only real risk with the seaplane ride companies are the higher net worth individuals who REALLY want a seaplane are willing to self insure, most high worth folks are scared of liability so they won’t roll the dice, forward to no wild blue with just you and the kiddies

So it’s high worth people willing to self insure, so out of all the seaplane rides that’s maybe 1% ?


But for anyone who thinks takes a weekend course and confuses what they experienced with being ready to actually PIC a seaplane, it is simply not the case

OPs best bet would be to hire a seaplane CFI with time in type on a monthly rate and do all his training with him, keep paying him, or just safety pilot with a insurable seaplane pilot who doesn’t mind babysitting and maybe taking control if needed, until he has 150hrs or so, at that point he will be just good enough to probably not kill himself and good enough for a insurance company to accept for $10k plus per year

Well said, and welcome to PoA!

 

[Kenny Phillips]

There's a crossover point where self-insurance is the better choice, but unfortunately that also applies to many highly experienced pilots with abundant float plane time. It's a roll of the dice no matter how you approach it.

And too many consider "self insurance" as being willing to eat the cost of the plane should you smash it, with no consideration to what happens if there's liability for damaged property or injured humans. A million in cash would only be a start for "self insurance".

 

[amox]

And too many consider "self insurance" as being willing to eat the cost of the plane should you smash it, with no consideration to what happens if there's liability for damaged property or injured humans. A million in cash would only be a start for "self insurance".

I self insure" my plane, but carry liability for just that reason.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

some AWESOME content here from SES in particular but all of you-- thank you for this.

does "self-insure" = "no insurance" then ? as in, liability only (a must for me), and if I wad it up I eat it ? maybe this approach on an older 206 should be a start point vs. those lustful Beavers. I can upgrade later.

This place really is a great learning tool, many thanks to all of you here for the meaningful contributions.

 

[amox]

does "self-insure" = "no insurance" then ? as in, liability only (a must for me), and if I wad it up I eat it ? maybe this approach on an older 206 should be a start point vs. those lustful Beavers. I can upgrade later.

Generally that's what we are referring to. I think it is irresponsible to not carry liability for yourself, others, and your heirs - it's not too pricey. I believe in Alaska there is also a cap on liability damages that can be assessed if you have insurance, but no cap if you don't. Don't quote me on that, I am not at all a lawyer I just read an article like 5 years ago.

There's a good looking amphib 206 for sale at Alaska Aircraft Sales on Lake Hood for $335k.

Good luck with your search

 

[SamSES]

You could also plan your flights to minimize liability, I’m just not super sure you’re going to get written super low time, it’s not the end of the world just need to think about your flights a little more

This is not a amphib, but the guy is selling a phenomenal Cessna 180, wheels and aerocets 3500s, no affiliation

https://nickelboat.com/home

 

[texasclouds]

You won’t need insurance while you are upside down in the water unconscious for more than three minutes.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

I believe in Alaska there is also a cap on liability damages that can be assessed if you have insurance, but no cap if you don't. Don't quote me on that, I am not at all a lawyer I just read an article like 5 years ago.

If you recall where that article was, would you mind posting it? I would be quite interested. Although I am not in Alaska, it would be a nice starting research to use that article and see if other US States have anything similar?

And yet we have repeated threads on this board and others where it appears that people can afford to buy an aircraft but the brakes go on full when they’re given a mid 4 or a 5 figure insurance policy quote.

Potentially, somebody can afford a monthly payment on an aircraft loan with a 20% down payment. The loan almost certainly requires insurance. So either lack of insurance or expensive insurance may price some people out of an aircraft which is already straining their budget? I am sure other reasons as well.

I self insure" my plane, but carry liability for just that reason.

My insurance companies told me they will not provide liability to me if I do not also carry hull insurance with them. It is nice your insurance company gives you the option to decide for yourself what works best for your situation.

You won’t need insurance while you are upside down in the water unconscious for more than three minutes.

My estate would require the insurance. If I did not care about estate planning than the entire issue would be pretty trivial.