School me on IFR panels

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T Bird

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T Bird
Planning to start IR training soon and have been looking at buying a plane for a mission I'll have starting about a year from now of consistent 600+ mile trips with some likely being in IMC. I currently have access to a club Archer with great avionics (new garmin gtn 650 with a couple garmin nav/coms and stec 50 ap) I'll start training in but if I find a plane that fits my mission sooner I'm ready to pull the trigger and would move my training to that plane. Well I am pretty clueless when it comes to avionics/panels other than I know I want an IFR GPS and AP and the capability to do other types of ifr nav/approaches. Can y'all help enlighten me on what to look out for? I can't say I fully understand audio panel differences, GPS capability differences (i.e. IFR non-WAAS vs. WAAS), nav/VOR/DME differences, etc.

Also one plane I'm looking at has a Garmin GNX 375 gps/transponder, bendix/king kma24 audio panel, dual KX 155s, King DME & ADF, STEC 60-2 AP -- is that pretty capable for IFR? Appreciate any help here.
 
T Bird said:
I can't say I fully understand audio panel differences, GPS capability differences (i.e. IFR non-WAAS vs. WAAS), nav/VOR/DME differences, etc.
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A good portion of this will be fully covered during your IR ground school. Perhaps stick with your current club Archer for now? Do the IR ground school and get the IR written test knocked out. You would than be in a better position to consider what you may find more useful in your own aircraft.
 
I agree with the above.

The GNX375 is a WAAS navigator (that’s what you’d want) and the STEC60-2 is a solid AP, though getting old (that’s what I have).

Does the plane have an HSI I assume? And another indicator with glide slope? One of the KX155 should be able to do ILS glide slope. If so, you’re probably good to go, and with redundancy.
 
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I would hold off on purchasing the plane you’re considering. the adf and the DME are dated. Fly a few airplanes with different panels to see what you are comfortable with .also what you can afford.
 
Pretty much all of my flying done was hand flying, and I think that’s important, so you learn how to trim up the airplane, fuel management (from a weight and balance perspective) and also your instrument scan. Also, sometimes an autopilot might fail or mess up, and as a newer pilot if you are in IMC relying on an AP that fails, what will happen? Now what if you’re in IMC, AP fails and you have an engine failure? The situation can get messy fast! (Although unlikely, I do think about these things and I think it’s important to keep those in your mind so that your situational awareness is solid).

It’s difficult to say what you will need, as you are learning is one thing, how you think you’ll use the airplane vs how you actually use it is another. The 650 is nice, the 375 is good as well, kma24 is older but fine, same with the kx155. Make sure it has a glide slope. ADF/DME is not needed because of the 375. WAAS let’s you do precision approaches. Buy what you can afford and maintain, stuff breaks all of the time and it can be challenging to get parts and a mechanic out to help.

Since you are learning and I’m assuming building hours, find a solid VFR airplane, you can always fly under the hood with another pilot and that experience is good to start. With foreflight and adsb-in, you can simulate anything just about. You’ll later no matter what think about changing airplanes and if you decide you’ll stick with it, you can change and dump more money into another plane later, or upgrade yours if you really like it.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I agree with the above.

The GNX375 is a WAAS navigator (that’s what you’d want) and the STEC60-2 is a solid AP, though getting old (that’s what I have).

Does the plane have an HSI I assume? And another indicator with glide slope? One of the KX155 should be able to do ILS glide slope. If so, you’re probably good to go, and with redundancy.
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No HSI, does have glide slope. How critical is a HSI? Rough price range to add one?

To the others, thanks for the input, my intention is to be patient with the plane search and I have been thinking I'd wait until I have my IR and buy sometime in 2024 but if the right plane pops up now I don't see any reason to wait and not just do my IR in my own plane. Panel can be upgraded over time, obviously with a cost associated but if everything else fits the bill I'm willing to pull the trigger. The one I'm looking at now fits my mission well, has been flown regularly (100-200 hours per year the last 5-6 years), mid time engine, ADs taken care of, etc. and for a solid price. Just seems like a good opportunity I'd rather not miss out on if it end up working out. So looking for opinions on how viable that panel is for IFR if I do move forward with it, seems like it will do the job and be solid.
 
Avionics is fine and more than enough. I wouldn’t upgrade later, for upgrades you get about 50% back, for the engine you get almost 100% back, if that makes sense. Very rough estimate. So if you put 100k in the panel, your plane is worth about 50k more. Better to just pay an extra 50k now instead of doing 100k of upgrades later.

Also you need a mechanic, and to get their opinion on the airplane. Maintenance is subjective. Your mechanic might say he won’t sign off on the annual unless you do this and that and it could be extreme and expensive, in one persons mind it might be unnecessary. There’s the mechanics view and also yours. There’s no right or wrong answer, everyone takes their own risks. But let’s say if nothing breaks you are looking at 10-20k in maintenance your first year easy. If something breaks or if your mechanic says this and that is too old, then expect to pay a lot more on top of the 10-20k. It gets ridiculous quick and when I say 10k, that probably means you didn’t fly the airplane and Christmas came early for you. I’ve flown my plane a lot and as you fly it, the airplane literally starts to fall apart and things break. Especially if you fly in the rain, tears up your paint job.

People usually say 100hours per year to break even on airplane ownership, I doubt that. You probably have to fly a LOT more than that. Mostly because of the high cost of fuel. Burning 10gph means you are still paying $60/hour in fuel, and when you go places fuel prices range so much, I’ve paid as high as $12/gal recently.
 
T Bird said:
No HSI, does have glide slope. How critical is a HSI? Rough price range to add one?
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Not critical. Easier to fly, maybe. I was just asking to see where you were getting GS info. There’s redundancy if the HSI was linked to the GPS, and the GS indicator linked to one of the KX155s, for using an ILS. Not a big deal, that’s just the way mine is set up.
 
If you are going to rely on this airplane to get you there all the time, you need to do a LOT of research.

Could you do it with a 6 pack, no HSI, a simple GPS and a second older nav/com and older audio panel? Sure. But there are MUCH better options. But they cost more.

I would want at a minimum a modern higher end GPS (Garmin 650 class). And an HSI (just SO MUCH easier to fly at the end of a long flight). You can live with older #2 and audio panel. A second attitude indicator would be smart, power differently (so if your primary is vacuum, then electric/electronic for backup).

Best would be a modern flat panel type display (Garmin G3X or Aspen), dual GPSs. And best would be to have an ADSB Out and In transponder.

And a GOOD 2 axis autopilot that is coupled to the GPS/AI us almost mandatory.

And think about the time to fly that trip and the speed of the airplane.

If you are talking year round, depending on where you are, you may need FIKI for icing issues.
 
For me, a routine 600nm plus IMC at the distant end makes me want the most capable panel and autopilot I can have. This would be Dual G5 or equivalent, gps, second nav/com, and a digital 2 axis AP with GPSS at a minimum.
 
I was trying to say that, but based on time. A 600 nm trip is different in an Aerostar 700 at 265 knots versus a 172 at 110 knots.

Longer flight time, more fatigue, the more you want the best panel you can afford.
 
Pinecone said:
I was trying to say that, but based on time. A 600 nm trip is different in an Aerostar 700 at 265 knots versus a 172 at 110 knots.

Longer flight time, more fatigue, the more you want the best panel you can afford.
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Concur, actual performance is key. Can the platform do 600NM + IFR reserves non-stop is another factor to consider.
 
2 different missions between 600-650 statute miles so closer to 550NM, also probably some shorter trips mixed in around 200-250NM or less. Looking at Comanche 250/260s with 90gal and cruise at 160kts which I think fits the mission very well. Could be up to 1-2 round trips per month but all will be "pleasure" with no hard set timing stipulations or any need to get somewhere, so I can just not go if icing would be an issue. Any planes with FIKI likely overkill/out of my budget right now, as nice as that would be. NC Triangle to New England area is 1 mission, the other is NC Triangle to Tampa area.
 
Another vote for a slaved HSI. It makes the scan easier and eliminates the need to constantly reset the gyro to the compass - you'll have more important things to do.
Ideally look for an electronic one with a ground track indicator - it removes the guesswork out of wind correction. Just line up the ground track indicator on top of the course pointer, and your needle will stay centered.

A good two-axis autopilot is also essential for single-pilot cross-country IFR flying. You'll be the pilot monitoring for most of the flight while the autopilot does the flying, giving you some of the benefits of a two-person crew.

- Martin
 
T Bird said:
2 different missions between 600-650 statute miles so closer to 550NM, also probably some shorter trips mixed in around 200-250NM or less. Looking at Comanche 250/260s with 90gal and cruise at 160kts which I think fits the mission very well. Could be up to 1-2 round trips per month but all will be "pleasure" with no hard set timing stipulations or any need to get somewhere, so I can just not go if icing would be an issue. Any planes with FIKI likely overkill/out of my budget right now, as nice as that would be. NC Triangle to New England area is 1 mission, the other is NC Triangle to Tampa area.
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NC to NE in the winter will need FIKI to make it reliable. Not that it will always be used, but you need it due to the icing forecasts.

How many people (weight) and luggage required?

I have a Mooney 252/Encore with long range tanks. I can fill the tanks, put in 2 220 pound people and a lot of luggage. More people I need to reduce the fuel. But full fuel is over 9 hours as my normal cruise power at 175 KTAS at 17,000.
 
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