Scenario: Engine Failure on Takeoff

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JC150

Pre-takeoff checklist
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JC150
You're climbing at Vy and just passing 800' feet AGL when the engine starts shaking real bad and you've obviously had a loss of power.

The checklist for our club's Arrow currently says in that situation you would maintain a safe airspeed, lower the gear, and shut down the engine. It makes no mention about turning off the master or perhaps activating the ELT or maybe leave the engine windmilling and go to low rpm (high pitch) to increase gliding distance. I understand there's not much time to try and troubleshoot like switch tanks, ensure the fuel pump is on, switch mags, etc.

My question is given the scenario above, at such a low altitude, would you do anything different than what our club's checklist has like perhaps crack the door or turn the master off? How would you handle the situation for your particular airplane?
 
Why would you drop the gear and greatly reduce your glide range? That's stupid.
 
Shut down the engine?? Unless it's vibrating so bad I'm worried about a major aft CG shift that sucker is running as long as it can on the way to the landing. Screw the engine. I'm more difficult to replace than the engine.
 
Definitely crack open the door. Turn and land where you alighted from hopefully. Gear when the runway made. Fly the plane into the crash! Well hopefully you don't. **** everything else!

is
 
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Cut fuel before impact. Ditto the master. Gear depends on terrain, but you may make it back to the runway at that height. Depends on the plane and if you're still generating any power.


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Bonchie said:
Why would you drop the gear and greatly reduce your glide range? That's stupid.
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I would keep the gear up and land gear up.
You see; if I have an engine failure, it means I'm looking at a 20k bill for an overhaul. Might as well land it gear up and sell the plane to the insurance company and get paid the agreed value :)
 
mtuomi said:
800ft AGL? I turn around and land normally. (150M)
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I was taught not to turn around below 1,000 feet. But you could be right, I don't have enough experience on this yet and I'm willing to learn.

What do you guys use for your airplanes? I'm trying to create a "flow" for the club. Killing the master is one of them. How about prop full decrease? Would that make it easier to make the 180 degree turn back to the runway?

Would anyone try to troubleshoot at 800 feet? Like switch the mags or switch fuel tanks?
 
JC150 said:
I was taught not to turn around below 1,000 feet. But you could be right, I don't have enough experience on this yet and I'm willing to learn.

What do you guys use for your airplanes? I'm trying to create a "flow" for the club. Killing the master is one of them. How about prop full decrease? Would that make it easier to make the 180 degree turn back to the runway?

Would anyone try to troubleshoot at 800 feet? Like switch the mags or switch fuel tanks?
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I own/fly a 150M. 1000ft is waay excessive for a 180. I don't have a hard limit, at the field where I am based, turning back from 500ft is safer than flying straight ahead and in a 150 I'm pretty sure 500ft is enough for it.
 
JC150 said:
I was taught not to turn around below 1,000 feet. But you could be right, I don't have enough experience on this yet and I'm willing to learn.

What do you guys use for your airplanes? I'm trying to create a "flow" for the club. Killing the master is one of them. How about prop full decrease? Would that make it easier to make the 180 degree turn back to the runway?

Would anyone try to troubleshoot at 800 feet? Like switch the mags or switch fuel tanks?
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At 800' you do what mscard88 said a few posts up.
 
What if you were say 400 feet and you couldn't make the turn back to the runway? What procedures do you have for your aircraft that you fly?

So far, I have for prop full decrease, ELT activate, master switch off. Am I missing any? Fuel off right before landing would be good too.

mtuomi said:
I would keep the gear up and land gear up.
You see; if I have an engine failure, it means I'm looking at a 20k bill for an overhaul. Might as well land it gear up and sell the plane to the insurance company and get paid the agreed value :)
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I like the way you think
 
Me? Assuming the engine is making any power - full throttle, nose down, maintain airspeed, make the turnback, then lower the gear if I have sufficient altitude remaining for a conventional landing. If not, kill the fuel, master, and engine in that order and belly it in.
 
CBA
Cockpit, (Carb heat, Fuel Pump, Mixture, Switch tanks, as applicable)
Best landing area, above 500 feet I am usually starting my crosswind turn, Majority of single engine airplane will make it back to a 5000 ft runway at 2500'msl from here if you are already turning. Below 500' landing somewhere in front, left or right of me.
Airspeed, Don't stall it.

Just fly the airplane you aren't going to have time for much else at this point unless you practice alot.
 
JC150 said:
You're climbing at Vy and just passing 800' feet AGL when the engine starts shaking real bad and you've obviously had a loss of power.

The checklist for our club's Arrow currently says in that situation you would maintain a safe airspeed, lower the gear, and shut down the engine. It makes no mention about turning off the master or perhaps activating the ELT or maybe leave the engine windmilling and go to low rpm (high pitch) to increase gliding distance. I understand there's not much time to try and troubleshoot like switch tanks, ensure the fuel pump is on, switch mags, etc.

My question is given the scenario above, at such a low altitude, would you do anything different than what our club's checklist has like perhaps crack the door or turn the master off? How would you handle the situation for your particular airplane?
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To be clear, you've had a loss of power, and the checklist calls for shutting the engine down? That sounds like a poorly-written checklist. All that aside, you don't have time for a checklist at 800 feet AGL, so you can pretty much throw that idea out the window.

Instead, it would be best to do two things:

1. Open up the POH and see what it recommends for engine failures immediately after takeoff. Those are probably going to be memory actions that you work very hard at memorizing.

2. Go out to a non-towered airport and practice engine failures at 800 feet AGL at Vy after takeoff. It's possible you can get the plane back down on the runway depending on the runway length, wind, and aircraft weight. Completing a short pattern from 800 ft AGL is not impossible in the Arrow. I'd probably put the flaps down to 10 degrees to provide some added lift. Keep in mind in the Cherokee series, 25 degrees of flaps (the second click on the flap lever) can sometimes be beneficial for providing additional lift as well. (That's the configuration recommended for short-field takeoffs.)

As an aside, this is why it's important not to raise the gear in a single engine aircraft just because you have a "positive rate" of climb. The gear should be raised only when you have no runway length remaining, should you need to land the airplane following an engine failure.
 
Harold Rutila said:
2. Go out to a non-towered airport and practice engine failures at 800 feet AGL at Vy after takeoff. It's possible you can get the plane back down on the runway depending on the runway length, wind, and aircraft weight.
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But be VERY careful when doing this. There was a fatal accident a few years ago in my home country when a PPL + CFI were practicing this.
 
kyleb said:
If not, kill the fuel, master, and engine in that order and belly it in.
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If an engine isn't producing power but is still turning the prop, wouldn't it be better to leave it running and use the blue knob to try to decrease some drag so you can glider further? Just curious.

Harold Rutila said:
1. Open up the POH and see what it recommends for engine failures immediately after takeoff. Those are probably going to be memory actions that you work very hard at memorizing.
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The POH says if there's runway remaining, land on the runway. If there isn't runway remaining and not enough altitude to attempt a restart, bring the gear up and use the emergency gear extender to drop the gear. That's all our POH says, so I'm trying to learn from here so I'm prepared.

Would anyone try to switch magnetos or fuel tank to see if that is causing the problem at 800 feet? Or pretty much commit to landing?
 
At 800 feet, you have time to pitch for best glide and land. That's about it.

Attempting a turn back is marginal, especially with only one runway. People die trying.
 
JC150 said:
So far, I have for prop full decrease, ELT activate, master switch off. Am I missing any? Fuel off right before landing would be good too.
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Be careful how much stuff you try to do when FLYING THE AIRPLANE is the primary need. I've seen noticeable decreases in flying precision simply from keying the mic and talking. Looking around the cockpit, reaching for an ELT switch? Probably going to significantly destabilize your airplane and adversely affect crash survivability.
 
First thing is get going towards the best option at best glide, this is dependent on altitude and location, I don't think of these as black and whites, it's situationally dependent

Quick engine trouble shoot

I wouldn't turn the engine off unless it was making zero power, which at that altitude you doubtfully will have time to figure.

Same with elt, 121.5, opening doors, grabbing checks list, etc etc, the biggest thing is just going to be flying the plane and getting it to the best place to set her down.

Real world, you're talking best glide and maybe changing a tank, if you're lucky.
 
To add to all the great sggestions above, I'd cinch up the seat belts really tight and advise pax to do the same.

JC150 said:
Would anyone try to switch magnetos or fuel tank to see if that is causing the problem at 800 feet? Or pretty much commit to landing?
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I think that after establishing best glide and safely completing the turnaround, I'd make sure boost pump was on and switch tanks. If any time remained, I'd go to the mags.
Make sure you've got the right best glide speed....I've got two on my checklist, one for solo weight with no baggage & full fuel (76 kts) and the other for max gross weight (82 kts). If you only have the figure for max gross weight, calculate the solo weight best glide as follows:

Take the square root of solo weight/max gross weight; then multiply it by the best glide speed at max gross weight.

I learned that from a safety webinar hosted by Buster on POA. Thanks, Buster!
 
I can tell you about that because it happened to me. I was flying three young eagles and had climbed through 600' with the gear up in the Navion when the #6 cylinder went. Straight ahead wasn't an option. I turned to land on the airport access road but realized I had enough altitude to continue the turn to the runway. Dropped the gear at 200' Had already closed the throttle and pulled the prop back. Didn't have time to worry about anything else until after touchdown.

Much as with the Arrow, the Navion gear comes down pretty fast in an emergency. It free falls when you release the uplocks (or in the Arrow, just by releasing the hydraulic pressure). In an Arrow, if you have electric you probably have normal gear extending; in the Navion if the prop is windmilling you have the hydraulic pressure to work the gear as well.

Losing it right after takeoff at most airports isn't going to necessitate an ELT activation. People are going to know you went down. Hell, when I landed in a field (oddly enough in a town named Hurt, VA), not only did ATC know where I was going down, but as soon as I landed people came racing over to check out the plane "crash."

In both cases I was too occupied to worry about shutting off the electrics or the fuel valve. Remember in the Arrow, if you turn of the master, you lose the flap control (the Navion is hydraulic).
 
Best glide,switch tanks ,fuel pump on,carb heat. Unlock door if not successfull shut of all fuel and electric,hope for the best.
 
I'm still trying to figure out them telling you to drop the gear immediately. You sure the checklist really says that?

If you are off airport, I'd rather land on the belly. Less chance the plane flips. Even more so on water.
 
Glide speed, Turn around, announce returning, fuel pump/tanks, brace for impact. With 800' you should be able to get back to airport property in most light singles. maybe not a perfect runway landing, but id rather take a taxiway, ramp or grassy area than a busy street, neighborhood, etc.

If its night time and you dont like what you see, turn the landing lights off. :D
 
The POH/checklist says what it says, but the reality is that losing an engine at 800ft in an average single-engine leaves you with something around a minute before you're going to be on the ground. You're not going to have the time or mental capacity to do anything other than the most basic troubleshooting (shove all the knobs/levers forward, hit the fuel pump and switch tanks). After that, 100% of your focus needs to be on flying the plane to the least-bad spot. Gear up or down is a virtually last minute decision. If I have a passenger, I'll tell them to pop the door. If I'm solo, more than likely the door is staying closed, as reaching over and fumbling with it while descending through 400ft with no power (and possibly in a turn) isn't a particularly wise choice (despite what the POH might say). Ron's real-world story is a perfect example of why a multi-step "checklist" isn't going to work in that scenario. Fly the plane, fly the plane, fly the f'n plane.
 
PUSH. Amazing how much forward pressure it took to get to best glide when the engine quits shortly after takeoff. We practiced this a bit ago on a really long runway. Maybe 100-200 ft off the ground at Vy. If that engine goes, you lose airspeed really fast with the nose up, so get that nose down fast. Don't lower gear or flaps until the runway (or landing zone) is made.
 
JC150 said:
What if you were say 400 feet and you couldn't make the turn back to the runway? What procedures do you have for your aircraft that you fly?

So far, I have for prop full decrease, ELT activate, master switch off. Am I missing any? Fuel off right before landing would be good too.



I like the way you think
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Land straight ahead or at least within 20 degrees of straight ahead if you can see something flat and inexpensive. Your priority is humans first, engines and planes second. Forget about troubleshooting or playing with knobs or doing anything other than finding a soft, flat, maybe-not-long-enough spot and putting it down. Going into the trees at 40 knots with the brakes screaming is better than stalling into them. The ELT is supposed to activate on impact, so erase that. Fuel off is good, so long as it does not distract from your #1 priority.

Bob Gardner
 
That happen to me many years ago in the back seat of a Champ. I accepted an intersection take off and had loss of power, oil and smoke as soon as I ran out of enough runway to put it down on. I did have a little power and started a turn back. I told myself that as soon as I ran out of altitude I would make the best landing I could on what ever was there.

I did manage to make it around. Detonation had knocked a hole in a piston.
 
bobmrg said:
Land straight ahead or at least within 20 degrees of straight ahead if you can see something flat and inexpensive. Your priority is humans first, engines and planes second. Forget about troubleshooting or playing with knobs or doing anything other than finding a soft, flat, maybe-not-long-enough spot and putting it down. Going into the trees at 40 knots with the brakes screaming is better than stalling into them. The ELT is supposed to activate on impact, so erase that. Fuel off is good, so long as it does not distract from your #1 priority.

Bob Gardner
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Bob, just started reading your two books (Say Again Please and the Complete Advanced Pilot) as I prepare to do instrument.

I'd honestly love to know where you're looking for the "least bad" places to land departing KRNT either on 16 or 34. it looks like a whole bunch of bad options to me. On 34 i'm planning for in the water, as close to the shore near Holmes point as I can, but on 16??
 
MauleSkinner said:
Be careful how much stuff you try to do when FLYING THE AIRPLANE is the primary need. I've seen noticeable decreases in flying precision simply from keying the mic and talking. Looking around the cockpit, reaching for an ELT switch? Probably going to significantly destabilize your airplane and adversely affect crash survivability.
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Yeah, I wouldn't even think of doing that. They all have g-switches in them so a hard landing will set it off. Fly the plane.

BTW, IMO flying at Vy after takeoff isn't smart unless you have a good reason like clearing obstacles. Too easy to degrade into stall speed at that attitude. I'm sure others will disagree.
 
paflyer said:
Yeah, I wouldn't even think of doing that. They all have g-switches in them so a hard landing will set it off. Fly the plane.

BTW, IMO flying at Vy after takeoff isn't smart unless you have a good reason like clearing obstacles. Too easy to degrade into stall speed at that attitude. I'm sure others will disagree.
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Yup, I will.

The argument is quite good for Vx, but for Vy, you get the most altitude in the shortest time, and it's not THAT slow. Under some conditions (high density altitude), you aren't climbing at any other speed.
 
I think the low altitude checklist requires one and only one thing. Fly the airplane to the best spot that you can reach and land. Anything else just increases your chance of a fatal mistake.
 
flyingron said:
I can tell you about that because it happened to me. I was flying three young eagles and had climbed through 600' with the gear up in the Navion when the #6 cylinder went. Straight ahead wasn't an option. I turned to land on the airport access road but realized I had enough altitude to continue the turn to the runway. Dropped the gear at 200' Had already closed the throttle and pulled the prop back. Didn't have time to worry about anything else until after touchdown.

Much as with the Arrow, the Navion gear comes down pretty fast in an emergency. It free falls when you release the uplocks (or in the Arrow, just by releasing the hydraulic pressure). In an Arrow, if you have electric you probably have normal gear extending

In both cases I was too occupied to worry about shutting off the electrics or the fuel valve. Remember in the Arrow, if you turn of the master, you lose the flap control (the Navion is hydraulic).
Click to expand...
flyingron said:
I can tell you about that because it happened to me. I was flying three young eagles and had climbed through 600' with the gear up in the Navion when the #6 cylinder went. Straight ahead wasn't an option. I turned to land on the airport access road but realized I had enough altitude to continue the turn to the runway. Dropped the gear at 200' Had already closed the throttle and pulled the prop back. Didn't have time to worry about anything else until after touchdown.

Much as with the Arrow, the Navion gear comes down pretty fast in an emergency. It free falls when you release the uplocks (or in the Arrow, just by releasing the hydraulic pressure). In an Arrow, if you have electric you probably have normal gear extending; in the Navion if the prop is windmilling you have the hydraulic pressure to work the gear as well.

Losing it right after takeoff at most airports isn't going to necessitate an ELT activation. People are going to know you went down. Hell, when I landed in a field (oddly enough in a town named Hurt, VA), not only did ATC know where I was going down, but as soon as I landed people came racing over to check out the plane "crash."

In both cases I was too occupied to worry about shutting off the electrics or the fuel valve. Remember in the Arrow, if you turn of the master, you lose the flap control (the Navion is hydraulic).
Click to expand...




flyingron said:
I can tell you about that because it happened to me. I was flying three young eagles and had climbed through 600' with the gear up in the Navion when the #6 cylinder went. Straight ahead wasn't an option. I turned to land on the airport access road but realized I had enough altitude to continue the turn to the runway. Dropped the gear at 200' Had already closed the throttle and pulled the prop back. Didn't have time to worry about anything else until after touchdown.

Much as with the Arrow, the Navion gear comes down pretty fast in an emergency. It free falls when you release the uplocks (or in the Arrow, just by releasing the hydraulic pressure). In an Arrow, if you have electric you probably have normal gear extending; in the Navion if the prop is windmilling you have the hydraulic pressure to work the gear as well.

Losing it right after takeoff at most airports isn't going to necessitate an ELT activation. People are going to know you went down. Hell, when I landed in a field (oddly enough in a town named Hurt, VA), not only did ATC know where I was going down, but as soon as I landed people came racing over to check out the plane "crash."

In both cases I was too occupied to worry about shutting off the electrics or the fuel valve. Remember in the Arrow, if you turn of the master, you lose the flap control (the Navion is hydraulic).
Click to expand...


I don't think you are losing the flaps in an arrow by turning off the master switch.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Yup, I will.

The argument is quite good for Vx, but for Vy, you get the most altitude in the shortest time, and it's not THAT slow. Under some conditions (high density altitude), you aren't climbing at any other speed.
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i'm a wet behind the ears PP, but I was taught the same thing. Close to the ground, climb out at Vy unless there is a reason to do something else (like using Vx for obstacle clearance)

my airport is fairly hairy, so i like to get to TPA as quickly as possible in case there is an engine issue.
 
Bonchie said:
I'm still trying to figure out them telling you to drop the gear immediately. You sure the checklist really says that?

If you are off airport, I'd rather land on the belly. Less chance the plane flips. Even more so on water.
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You wouldn't, or shouldn't drop the gear immediately, and the book doesn't say to do that.

The arrow poh says gear goes down when committed to landing.

Some circumstances, as others pointed out, may lead to decision to do intentional gear up landing.
 
JC150 said:
What if you were say 400 feet and you couldn't make the turn back to the runway? What procedures do you have for your aircraft that you fly?

So far, I have for prop full decrease, ELT activate, master switch off. Am I missing any? Fuel off right before landing would be good too.
Click to expand...

Sing like an opera Diva on your radio. Towered field? Tell the tower what is up and to roll the trucks. Nontowered? Dial up 121.5 and sing your heart out!

It is the communicate part of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate."
 
There are some situations that the checklist needs to be modified to fit the scenario. If you lose power at 800' AGL in an Arrow, I can tell you that I will not be lowering the gear, unless there is an assured landing zone in front of me. If no suitable landing site is available, keep the gear up and pitch it for best glide. A controlled crash has a much higher probability of survival than an uncontrolled crash. Maintain control and fly it till it stops.
 
MIFlyer said:
Bob, just started reading your two books (Say Again Please and the Complete Advanced Pilot) as I prepare to do instrument.

I'd honestly love to know where you're looking for the "least bad" places to land departing KRNT either on 16 or 34. it looks like a whole bunch of bad options to me. On 34 i'm planning for in the water, as close to the shore near Holmes point as I can, but on 16??
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I'd honestly love to know where you're looking for the "least bad" places to land departing KRNT either on 16 or 34. it looks like a whole bunch of bad options to me. On 34 i'm planning for in the water, as close to the shore near Holmes point as I can, but on 16??[/QUOTE]

Use Google Earth, not an airport diagram, to follow my reasoning:

Taking off from 34 and losing the engine too low to turn back, my inclination would be to head for Gene Coulon Park. First, the water is fairly shallow; second, there are always people at the restaurants and walking the path. Taking off from 16 and losing one at the same altitude as the 34 scenario I would head for the Renton High athletic field just to the west of the school itself. No tall buildings between Airport Way and the school. Slip like there was no tomorrow. There is a chain-link fence at the south end of the field paralleling 2nd Avenue which would slow you down a tad, then if you get across the westbound lanes of 2nd without having a car encounter there is a wooded divider between the eastbound and westbound lanes.

Bob
 
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