Scary moment today

azure

azure

Final Approach
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azure
I took my newly bought Cardinal RG up today all by my lonesome for the first time. It was a little bumpy, but not too bad. Landed at PHN (sorry Ray, last minute decision), then got fuel at 57D and headed off, thinking I might make a stop at PTK and pick up some hydraulic fluid and a control lock. Looked dark off in the SW so I tried to bring up the XM page on my MFD... nothing, black screen. Subscription must have expired. I tried the UAT FIS page and voila! A line of heavy precip, lots of yellow and even a strip or two of red, running from FNT down to ARB and advancing quickly. I immediately set course for home base, and with my (I think, anyway) healthy fear of t'storms, decided not even to fly the pattern but set up for a straight in 5 mile final to 27. I flew the approach perfectly, nailed my airspeeds, kept in a good bit of left aileron to counter the crosswind (reported as 23011G15KT), kept my head plastered to the ceiling so the warped windscreen wouldn't mess up my judgement, then about 10 feet above the runway I felt a sudden sink. I should have gone around at that point, but I didn't. I leveled off, slowing my sink and let the plane settle onto the runway. No sooner were both mains down than I felt a powerful shove (or pull?) to the left, the mains actually skidded sideways and the nose dove for the ground. I fought to keep control of the airplane and managed to keep from going off into the grass, but the nose had gotten low enough at one point that I was afraid I had sustained a prop strike. Careful examination revealed no damage to anything but my pride, but I've been scratching my head ever since trying to figure out what happened. The plane steered normally on the taxiway so it wasn't a brake locking up. The best I can figure is I was hit with a freak wind gust from the approaching storm line, a sharp blast from the NW at the worst possible moment. The rapid sink could have been the first sign of it.

Both previous landings were okay, but that one has really shaken my confidence in that airplane... planning to get back on the horse soon, as in tomorrow if the winds aren't too bad.
 
Getting back on that horse as soon as possible is good for confidence! Sounds like you handled things fine!
 
Way to go Liz. Get out there and try it again. Its how we get better.

I had the same thing happen to me on Sunday. 60 degree x-wind at 12 to 15 knots. As soon as both mains were on the ground I started sliding sideways. I think the problem is that once you are level you no longer have any wind correction and you are moving fast so you are still light on the wheels. I tried another landing and cranked in almost full aileron once I was on the ground and that seemed to stop the slide. I also got rid of the flaps sooner.
 
Sounds exactly like my experience in our 340 in 1984 at KOJC. Big storm easily visible ~30 miles away confirmed with eyeballs, stormscope and radar, but light and variable at our airport, so I ho-hum landed without incident, on the centerline, when WHAP! the airplane was off the left side of the runway in a second and back in the middle the next, none of which I had knowingly commanded. Tower later confirmed a 59-knot "rogue" gust on their recorder, but they were all too busy trying to evacuate to talk to me, as they thought the windows were going to cave in.

Only evidence of the event was some grass lodged around the outboard bead of the LMG tire. Didn't clip a runway light, but the only reason was that I was lucky on the spacing. I wasn't scared at the time because there was no time to be, but not something I'm looking forward to again.

azure said:
I took my newly bought Cardinal RG up today all by my lonesome for the first time. It was a little bumpy, but not too bad. Landed at PHN (sorry Ray, last minute decision), then got fuel at 57D and headed off, thinking I might make a stop at PTK and pick up some hydraulic fluid and a control lock. Looked dark off in the SW so I tried to bring up the XM page on my MFD... nothing, black screen. Subscription must have expired. I tried the UAT FIS page and voila! A line of heavy precip, lots of yellow and even a strip or two of red, running from FNT down to ARB and advancing quickly. I immediately set course for home base, and with my (I think, anyway) healthy fear of t'storms, decided not even to fly the pattern but set up for a straight in 5 mile final to 27. I flew the approach perfectly, nailed my airspeeds, kept in a good bit of left aileron to counter the crosswind (reported as 23011G15KT), kept my head plastered to the ceiling so the warped windscreen wouldn't mess up my judgement, then about 10 feet above the runway I felt a sudden sink. I should have gone around at that point, but I didn't. I leveled off, slowing my sink and let the plane settle onto the runway. No sooner were both mains down than I felt a powerful shove (or pull?) to the left, the mains actually skidded sideways and the nose dove for the ground. I fought to keep control of the airplane and managed to keep from going off into the grass, but the nose had gotten low enough at one point that I was afraid I had sustained a prop strike. Careful examination revealed no damage to anything but my pride, but I've been scratching my head ever since trying to figure out what happened. The plane steered normally on the taxiway so it wasn't a brake locking up. The best I can figure is I was hit with a freak wind gust from the approaching storm line, a sharp blast from the NW at the worst possible moment. The rapid sink could have been the first sign of it.

Both previous landings were okay, but that one has really shaken my confidence in that airplane... planning to get back on the horse soon, as in tomorrow if the winds aren't too bad.
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This wasn't anywhere near as violent as that, just unexpected and attention-grabbing. It's not that I was thrown this way and that, but I had left aileron in because the prevailing crosswind was from the south, exactly the wrong correction for the gust (most likely) that hit me, and I reacted more with rudder than with aileron because at the time, I had no idea what in the hell I was dealing with.

I guess it just drives home how unpredictable winds can be even 20-30 miles from a storm line. I remember once cutting about 10 miles in front of an isolated cell to get back home and managed a picture perfect approach and landing with no surprises thrown my way. I think that experience led me to assume that I was still at a safe distance, and that everything would be okay as long as I didn't dally. Mother Nature sure likes to throw surprises; I guess the moral is I have to expect them and be extra careful whenever there's convective activity anywhere in the area.
 
I think especially so if your destination airport lies within the ~direction of storm movement.

azure said:
This wasn't anywhere near as violent as that, just unexpected and attention-grabbing. It's not that I was thrown this way and that, but I had left aileron in because the prevailing crosswind was from the south, exactly the wrong correction for the gust (most likely) that hit me, and I reacted more with rudder than with aileron because at the time, I had no idea what in the hell I was dealing with.

I guess it just drives home how unpredictable winds can be even 20-30 miles from a storm line. I remember once cutting about 10 miles in front of an isolated cell to get back home and managed a picture perfect approach and landing with no surprises thrown my way. I think that experience led me to assume that I was still at a safe distance, and that everything would be okay as long as I didn't dally. Mother Nature sure likes to throw surprises; I guess the moral is I have to expect them and be extra careful whenever there's convective activity anywhere in the area.
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azure said:
The best I can figure is I was hit with a freak wind gust from the approaching storm line, a sharp blast from the NW at the worst possible moment. The rapid sink could have been the first sign of it.

Both previous landings were okay, but that one has really shaken my confidence in that airplane... planning to get back on the horse soon, as in tomorrow if the winds aren't too bad.
Click to expand...

Had something similar happen in a 152 many years ago. Landing in a strong crosswind that seemed to switch to an opposite cross wind instantly just a second before touchdown. Slammed me down on left main and nose gear. Was sure I had damaged something, but could find nothing.
 
Sounds like a wind gust. Your pride may have taken a hit, but gusts like that happen sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it other than deal with it. If you're alright and the plane's alright, then I'd say you handled it well.
 
My last few landings have been like that. Of course, it's been a bit breezy at the times too. As soon as the plane slows down and I dump the flaps so that I'm less than 80% of stall speed, she straightens right out. Weathervaning can also occur in trike gear airplanes. Easy peasy lemon squeezee.
 
EdFred said:
My last few landings have been like that. Of course, it's been a bit breezy at the times too. As soon as the plane slows down and I dump the flaps so that I'm less than 80% of stall speed, she straightens right out. Easy peasy lemon squeezee.
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You dump flaps when? You have manual or electric flaps?
 
dmccormack said:
You dump flaps when? You have manual or electric flaps?
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Johnson bar flaps. As soon as the mains go chirp chirp, hand moves from throttle to flap handle. Actually, sometimes if I have carried a bit too much speed and am already over the runway and floating, I will slowly dump the flaps while airborne, and settle it gently onto the runway. Oh the tricks the FAA won't teach you. :)
 
EdFred said:
Johnson bar flaps. As soon as the mains go chirp chirp, hand moves from throttle to flap handle. Actually, sometimes if I have carried a bit too much speed and am already over the runway and floating, I will slowly dump the flaps while airborne, and settle it gently onto the runway. Oh the tricks the FAA won't teach you. :)
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LOL. In my Cherokee, I dumped flaps as soon as I had the mains on the ground. Why? Its so easy to do, why not?
 
But the FAA will talk to you at length if your hand happens to move to the gear swith rather than the flap switch. Tricks work both ways. I don't touch nuthin' until after I'm clear of the runway and stopped. But then again I'm good enough that I don't have to. :raspberry:

EdFred said:
Johnson bar flaps. As soon as the mains go chirp chirp, hand moves from throttle to flap handle. Actually, sometimes if I have carried a bit too much speed and am already over the runway and floating, I will slowly dump the flaps while airborne, and settle it gently onto the runway. Oh the tricks the FAA won't teach you. :)
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
But the FAA will talk to you at length if your hand happens to move to the gear swith rather than the flap switch. Tricks work both ways. I don't touch nuthin' until after I'm clear of the runway and stopped. But then again I'm good enough that I don't have to. :raspberry:
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Zero chance of that happening in my PA28-161
 
EdFred said:
Johnson bar flaps. As soon as the mains go chirp chirp, hand moves from throttle to flap handle. Actually, sometimes if I have carried a bit too much speed and am already over the runway and floating, I will slowly dump the flaps while airborne, and settle it gently onto the runway. Oh the tricks the FAA won't teach you. :)
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Yeah, I know about "dumping flaps" -- but it's far easier with manual flaps -- electric flaps take a while.

Still, if I'm landing, I want the ground roll to be minimal. Flaps provide drag -- lots of it.
 
dmccormack said:
When I started flying retracts, I quit reaching for flap handles while rolling.

(Try that in a '47 Beech -35 with "piano key" controls) :yikes:
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YES! Definitely take your time with the flaps in a retract.

I had a similar landing at Burke in Cleveland. The wind hit coming off the shore about 1/3 down the runway. First time I went around the second time I tried to land short before the problem area. It was an interesting landing.

Flew home that afternoon without a problem other than CLE approach throwing me out over the Lake with no altitude.
 
And 100% chance that you're learning a behavior that's a potential future trap and doesn't provide any meaningful benefit to what you're flying now.
ScottM said:
Zero chance of that happening in my PA28-161
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dmccormack said:
Yeah, I know about "dumping flaps" -- but it's far easier with manual flaps -- electric flaps take a while.

Still, if I'm landing, I want the ground roll to be minimal. Flaps provide drag -- lots of it.
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Flaps also provide that extra lift making the brakes less effective.

Stopping distance with brakes and no flaps < stopping distance with brakes and flaps.
 
wabower said:
But the FAA will talk to you at length if your hand happens to move to the gear swith rather than the flap switch. Tricks work both ways. I don't touch nuthin' until after I'm clear of the runway and stopped. But then again I'm good enough that I don't have to. :raspberry:
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If I mistake the flap handle for the gear switch, I probably won't pass the vision test of my FAA medical, and I have more issues than just with the FAA. When I mistake a 24" bar for a 2" switch separated by about 16" of distance, just take me out back and shoot me.
 
EdFred said:
If I mistake the flap handle for the gear switch, I probably won't pass the vision test of my FAA medical, and I have more issues than just with the FAA. When I mistake a 24" bar for a 2" switch separated by about 16" of distance, just take me out back and shoot me.
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Some airplanes were designed with very distinct gear and flap actuators.

Not all were.
 
dmccormack said:
Only after the weight of the airplane is borne by the wheels and not the wings.
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And by getting rid of the flaps, the weight more quickly transfers to the wheels from the wings than it would by leaving the flaps deployed.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, I know. Beech designers were morons.
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They designed and developed an all metal, retractable gear, personal use monoplane with the drag coefficient of an F-104, great short and soft field performance, and 120 knots on 8 GPH -- in 1946.

Yeah, real maroons... :rofl:
 
dmccormack said:
They designed and developed an all metal, retractable gear, personal use monoplane with the drag coefficient of an F-104, great short and soft field performance, and 120 knots on 8 GPH -- in 1946.

Yeah, real maroons... :rofl:
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Might want to look at the flap and gear switches in a few of those Beeches. Like I said, morons.

Doning one or two great things does not remove the dunce cap.
 
Lot of studies available to suggest that is faulty thinking, both from a physiological standpoint as well as using the extended flaps vs. brakes for slowing the airplane.

EdFred said:
Flaps also provide that extra lift making the brakes less effective.

Stopping distance with brakes and no flaps < stopping distance with brakes and flaps.
Click to expand...
 
EdFred said:
Might want to look at the flap and gear switches in a few of those Beeches. Like I said, morons.

Doning one or two great things does not remove the dunce cap.
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I've flown a '47 -35, a 1980 A36, a 197(something) Sierra, a 1982 Skipper, and a Muskeeter.

In 1947 the interior designers had some new problems to solve -- there was no "6 pack," a design contraint was a "man wearing a hat", and there was the marketing pressure of convincing non-fliers of the ease of air travel.

So the '47 interior looked more like a car inside than what we think an airplane should be.

But most of what we think an airplane should be inside was developed after 1947.
 
wabower said:
Lot of studies available to suggest that is faulty thinking, both from a physiological standpoint as well as using the extended flaps vs. brakes for slowing the airplane.
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Flaps don't provide lift. So noted. :rolleyes:
 
dmccormack said:
They designed and developed an all metal, retractable gear, personal use monoplane with the drag coefficient of an F-104, great short and soft field performance, and 120 knots on 8 GPH -- in 1946.

Yeah, real maroons... :rofl:
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Ed's just envious of those Bonanza drivers:yesnod:. But seriously, as much as I'm opposed to flipping switches and controls on the panel while rolling down the runway, I must admit that Johnson bar flap controls are an exception. First of all, the effort and motions required are so dissimilar to moving the landing gear selector on any aircraft with powered gear that I see little potential for confusing the two. You might just as well worry about accidentally raising the gear when intending to close the throttle. And WRT the effectiveness of raising flaps during a landing to improve braking effectiveness, that's pretty much a myth with electric or hydraulic flaps because they generally move too slowly to get the desired effect before the plane's so slow it doesn't matter. But with the Johnson bar you can go from full flaps to no flaps in a fraction of a second and that definitely does help with the stopping ability in many cases.
 
EdFred said:
Flaps don't provide lift. So noted. :rolleyes:
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Well....technically, they don't provide lift. Lift is provided by either Bernoulli's principal or Newton's Third Law, depending on the viewpoint.

Flaps do, however, maximize the airplane's use of that lift.

For proof - go out to your plane while it is parked and pop in flaps. Does the plane go up?

:D
 
EdFred said:
Might want to look at the flap and gear switches in a few of those Beeches. Like I said, morons.

Doning one or two great things does not remove the dunce cap.
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Ed, even the earliest Bonanzas had a round "wheel" imbedded in the gear selector and a rectangular "flap" on top of the flap switch. Not as easy to distinguish as a big round wheel for a handle vs a flat tab but it's not like they weren't thinking about the potential confusion. And to paraphrase you, one or two minor mistakes in the design of the Bonanza doesn't diminish the rest of the design effort which was pretty amazing for a civilian project in the 40's. I'll bet it wouldn't be too difficult to find an ergonomic mistake or two on your Comanche.
 
EdFred said:
Flaps don't provide lift. So noted. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

So let's walk thorugh this ... (a public mental exercise)...

More than 20 degrees the flaps increase drag. The first 20 or so increase wing camber, thus reducing stall speed, thus permitting a slower approach.

So airplane is approaching at 1.2 Vs1, full flaps, steep approach angle, yada....

Upon level off, speed bleeds to 0.9 Vs1 or so (ground effect) and decays further as speed is traded for lift by increasing AoA.

If we leave flaps full, the drag component is present as lift component decays.

If we reduce flaps to 0, the wing camber no longer provides any residual lift, but we also eliminate drag produced by the flaps.

The brakes are not effective until sufficient weight is transferred to the tires, lest we skid.

If I keep full flaps, the speed decays more quickly due to the drag, therefore I can apply brakes once the wings are provided little to no lift.

So...I'll probably be slightly further down the runway if I removed flaps during the roundout phase (I lost lift AND drag at the same point).

If I kept the flaps in, I would touch down at point X, and drag would help me transfer weight from wings to wheels at X+g.

So where's the advantage?
 
SkyHog said:
Well....technically, they don't provide lift. Lift is provided by either Bernoulli's principal or Newton's Third Law, depending on the viewpoint.

Flaps do, however, maximize the airplane's use of that lift.

For proof - go out to your plane while it is parked and pop in flaps. Does the plane go up?

:D
Click to expand...

In West Texas...a little bit. ;)
 
dmccormack said:
So let's walk thorugh this ... (a public mental exercise)...

More than 20 degrees the flaps increase drag. The first 20 or so increase wing camber, thus reducing stall speed, thus permitting a slower approach.

So airplane is approaching at 1.2 Vs1, full flaps, steep approach angle, yada....

Upon level off, speed bleeds to 0.9 Vs1 or so (ground effect) and decays further as speed is traded for lift by increasing AoA.

If we leave flaps full, the drag component is present as lift component decays.

If we reduce flaps to 0, the wing camber no longer provides any residual lift, but we also eliminate drag produced by the flaps.

The brakes are not effective until sufficient weight is transferred to the tires, lest we skid.

If I keep full flaps, the speed decays more quickly due to the drag, therefore I can apply brakes once the wings are provided little to no lift.

So...I'll probably be slightly further down the runway if I removed flaps during the roundout phase (I lost lift AND drag at the same point).

If I kept the flaps in, I would touch down at point X, and drag would help me transfer weight from wings to wheels at X+g.

So where's the advantage?
Click to expand...

You stop using only flaps, I stop using only brakes, I bet I win.
 
Trapper John said:
Like the trim crank on the ceiling...
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You know, at first I didn't like the overhead trim crank, but I've come to like it. I can crank in trim quicker with that than the between the seats wheel, or waiting for the electric trim to do it's thing.
 
Gary said:
Whoa!! :mad3: What's the issue of a trim crank on the ceiling? It's a lot less distracting that that odd wheel on the floor or under the panel! :D

Gary
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It makes about as much sense as pushing on the yoke to bank left, and pulling to bank right. You kind of expect a control to operate on the same axis as the effect it has...

But like Ed says, you get used to it.
 
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