Saratoga Operating costs

Catalo

Catalo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Catalo
I've been looking into a 1983 piper Saratoga SP with the io-540. I'm trying to get a rough estimate of the operating costs and wasn't able to find anything. If you have one id be interested to get a ballpark of the monthly costs.
 
look up the thread about piper lance first year costs. For all intents and purposes, it's the same airplane.

My WAG? A 15-20K/yr all-in airplane for 100 hours assuming no engine teardown mx, higher with high COL hangar cost . Good luck.
 
Two rules:
1. If ya gotta ask ya can't afford it
2. 1 is the only rule

:)
 
I have a 1980 fixed gear Saratoga. Without any major surprises $1,000/month can get it done for an average recreational flyer.

Of course I upgraded my 530 to waas last year and just finished an install of a JPI 830... So that budget is in theory only.
 
arkvet said:
I have a 1980 fixed gear Saratoga. Without any major surprises $1,000/month can get it done for an average recreational flyer.
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Not doubting you at all, but without a cost breakdown, that number is not really helpful for a prospective buyer.

Things like hull value and hangar cost can vary greatly and obviously impact the bottom line operating figure.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not doubting you at all, but without a cost breakdown, that number is not really helpful for a prospective buyer.

Things like hull value and hangar cost can vary greatly and obviously impact the bottom line operating figure.
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Ive got hangar costs and all that figured out just looking for average maintenance costs and fuel consumption
 
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insurance ......$1,500-5,000/yr depending on ratings
gas...............16-18 gph
annual inspection....... ~$1,500
yearly maintenance.....$1,500-4,000/yr
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
insurance ......$1,500-5,000/yr depending on ratings
gas...............16-18 gph
annual inspection....... ~$1,500
yearly maintenance.....$1,500-4,000/yr
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Looks about right.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
insurance ......$1,500-5,000/yr depending on ratings
gas...............16-18 gph
annual inspection....... ~$1,500
yearly maintenance.....$1,500-4,000/yr
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And that misses true operating cost by a large margin...
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not doubting you at all, but without a cost breakdown, that number is not really helpful for a prospective buyer...
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Clark1961 said:
....And that misses true operating cost by a large margin...
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Interesting that people willing to share information on their experience with a similar aircraft are not thanked, but instead indirectly insulted. Pretty sure the OP was looking for some first hand information from folks who have lived with the airplane in question. And that's what these folks were trying to pass on.
 
I have a 77 Lance. The costs you have been given by the other PA32 owners is accurate. $160-$185 hr assuming about 100 hrs year.
 
edo2000 said:
Interesting that people willing to share information on their experience with a similar aircraft are not thanked, but instead indirectly insulted. Pretty sure the OP was looking for some first hand information from folks who have lived with the airplane in question. And that's what these folks were trying to pass on.
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How was that "indirectly insulting"?

James' post failed to note indirect operating cost which are substantial.
 
James331 said:
Huh?
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Off the top of my head engine wear will add substantially to the cost. Operating costs are much greater than what one is paying out of pocket today. I'm quite sure you are aware of this since you've been around awhile. I'm just pointing it out so other folks think about it.
 
edo2000 said:
Interesting that people willing to share information on their experience with a similar aircraft are not thanked, but instead indirectly insulted. Pretty sure the OP was looking for some first hand information from folks who have lived with the airplane in question. And that's what these folks were trying to pass on.
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Seriously, if you think my comment was an insult, you seriously need to re-evaluate your sensitivities. As an aircraft owner who has gone through this process I was simply pointing sons things that can make those numbers fluctuate greatly.

And I am familiar with PA32RT ownership. What it costs to operate my dad's Lance in AZ is considerably different than what it would cost me here in Virginia.
 
Whilst all the pushing and shoving in the boys room is going on, the OP has also gone. That'll learn him to ask questions on here.
 
well....I'm on my third aircraft, two of which were similar large bore engines in a PA32..... and I've owned off an on since the 80's....and those are good rough estimates, as the OP requested....also I turn a wrench from time to time A&P/IA. Not that any of that matters.
 
I think what @Clark1961 was after was a true all inclusive including engine reserve, avionics reserve, hangar rent, database and/or weather subscriptions, loan payment, etc.

You didn't list any of that, they are true costs, and they can add significant $$$ to what you listed.
 
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timwinters said:
I think what Clark was after was a true all inclusive including engine reserve, avionics reserve, hangar cost, database subscription, etc.

You didn't list any of that, they are true costs, and they add significant $$$ to what you listed.
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my hangar costs $239/mo....I don't put aside any reserves nor do I keep up a subscription. The 530W gets updated yearly....

Tim those costs are very regional....and will vary.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I don't put aside any reserves...
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But that doesn't mean that wear and tear on the engine and avionics is not an actual cost because it will need to be paid at some point in time if the plane is kept long enough. You're fortunate to be able to do this work and realize some savings, the OP likely not.
 
Sorry for not providing enough details.

An amazing deal close to home fell in my lap on my fixed gear Saratoga. I have it insured with a hull value of 100k although I bought it for substantially less. My engine is near TBO but with a fresh JPI 830 and regular clean oil analysis on an engine that hasn't sat I'm not looking at OH anytime too soon.

Acquisition cost (partially financed for 10 years) $500/ month
Hangar- $150/ month
Annual- $100/ month (owner assist)
Insurance- $175/ month ($2,000 / year and I'm low time non-IFR)

Those are the fixed expenses and they come in at ~$925/month.

Fuel- IO-540 with a JPI 830 I can easily average 12.5-15 gph without sacrificing cruise speed. So let's put a cost of $55/hour fuel @ 10 hours / month - $550/ month.

OH- insert that expense however you wish. To me it's kind of like avionics and other large one time expenses. Sometimes they are elective (Aspens to replace the still working fine steam gauges, how about the ADS B upgrade if not done?)

So looking at all that it looks like if I put all that together I'm at $1,450-$1,500 / month. Note that this doesn't factor in MOH or one time expenses like avionics and such. Waaaay too much variability and personal preference to factor in those.

When I made my original post I wasn't thinking about fuel. I was looking mostly at the fixed expenses of ownership.

I hope my reply is acceptable to the POA thread police.
 
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My Lance has cost me almost $15k this month. I spent another $24k on it last month. I've flown it 3 hours at 18ga/HR. I anticipate spending about $2k on it next week, and the tach will still be the same.

Maybe I should bought an Eclipse.......


Buy that C150 and laugh all the way to th hangar! While you are flying, I'll still be writing checks.
 
arkvet said:
An amazing deal close to home fell in my lap on my fixed gear Saratoga. I have it insured with a hull value of 100k although I bought it for substantially less. My engine is near TBO but with a fresh JPI 830 and regular clean oil analysis on an engine that hasn't sat I'm not looking at OH anytime too soon.
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How long do you plan to own it and have you priced overhauls on -540s?

Is the one you are looking at a turbo?

I haven't looked at overhaul costs on NA IO-540s, but the turbo 540 is one of the more expensive piston engines to overhaul.

Not trying to scare you away, just want you to be prepared.

arkvet said:
I hope my reply is acceptable to the POA thread police.
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Not possible. First rule of POA is that if you appease one self appointed thread cop, another one is bound to show up and be offended by you effort. You just have to have thick skin and develop your own filter.
 
arkvet said:
Annual- $100/ month (owner assist)
Insurance- $175/ month ($2,000 / year and I'm low time non-IFR)
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I think those are pretty realistic, assuming the one you are looking at isn't a basket case/been neglected.
 
Clark1961 said:
Off the top of my head engine wear will add substantially to the cost. Operating costs are much greater than what one is paying out of pocket today. I'm quite sure you are aware of this since you've been around awhile. I'm just pointing it out so other folks think about it.
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You a fortune teller?

The reserves game is just that, a game, I've seen engine waaaay past TBO still make great numbers and I've seen low time engines crap out and everything in between.

I've always just calculated the normal predictable monthly stuff, like hangar, insurance (if needed), Jepp if I'm going to be doing much IFR work, and my normal flat rate for the owner assist annual.

Aside from that I check oil, put gas in and go, if something comes up along the way I nip it in the bud, but I'm not putting money aside for engine and avionics and whatnot, heck a AI overhaul ain't much money and a OH on a 520 is the most expensive thing I'd be looking at and when that time comes I'll just pay it and maybe tighten my belt for that year, whatever.

When you do these types of "reserve" calculations it makes aircraft ownership, heck even car ownership near impossible, with the numbers you use I'd really have to budget to even go rip around the pattern, yet somehow even though I don't put millions away in a special account for each flight hour, my aircraft stays in top shape and my mechanic is more often telling me I'm going overboard on stuff vs being able to come up with any significant snags, outside of a bearing or a tire here and there.
 
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James331 said:
You a fortune teller?

The reserves game is just that, a game, I've seen engine waaaay past TBO still make great numbers and I've seen low time engines crap out and everything in between.

I've always just calculated the normal predictable monthly stuff, like hangar, insurance (if needed), Jepp if I'm going to be doing much IFR work, and my normal flat rate for the owner assist annual.

Aside from that I check oil, put gas in and go, if something comes up along the way I nip it in the bud, nut I'm not putting money aside engine and avionics and whatnot, heck a AI overhaul ain't much money and a OH on a 520 is the most expensive thing I'd be looking at and when that time comes I'll just pay it and maybe tighten my belt for that year, whatever.

When you do these types of "reserve" calculations it makes aircraft ownership, heck even car ownership near impossible
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I agree. I have always looked at engine reserve as a 'how will I pay for this if I need to when it does need to be done' rather than an hourly reserve.

Hourly reserve is probably useful if you are using it commercially or renting it out. Then you can factor a reserve figure into the rate you charge.
 
Hourly reserve is really just depreciation. Depreciation is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Hourly reserve is really just depreciation. Depreciation is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for.
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What about the folks who buy right, put some hours on and sell for more than they paid for it?
It's not exactly uncommon.

Plus if you can depreciate the plane tax wise, in addition to the few bucks you make on the sale, I should be PAYING myself a small amount per hour I fly my plane :D
 
James331 said:
You a fortune teller?

The reserves game is just that, a game, I've seen engine waaaay past TBO still make great numbers and I've seen low time engines crap out and everything in between.

I've always just calculated the normal predictable monthly stuff, like hangar, insurance (if needed), Jepp if I'm going to be doing much IFR work, and my normal flat rate for the owner assist annual.

Aside from that I check oil, put gas in and go, if something comes up along the way I nip it in the bud, but I'm not putting money aside for engine and avionics and whatnot, heck a AI overhaul ain't much money and a OH on a 520 is the most expensive thing I'd be looking at and when that time comes I'll just pay it and maybe tighten my belt for that year, whatever.

When you do these types of "reserve" calculations it makes aircraft ownership, heck even car ownership near impossible, with the numbers you use I'd really have to budget to even go rip around the pattern, yet somehow even though I don't put millions away in a special account for each flight hour, my aircraft stays in top shape and my mechanic is more often telling me I'm going overboard on stuff vs being able to come up with any significant snags, outside of a bearing or a tire here and there.
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Nope, not a fortune teller and not a fool either. We can agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think those are pretty realistic, assuming the one you are looking at isn't a basket case/been neglected.
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Just to clarify, I own the plane already. These numbers are real and not estimates.

And yes I know the cost of the OH. I don't really look at the OH expense as an "operating expense". Just like the plane often depreciates as an engine gets older it appreciates when a new one is inserted. Lots of variables (mainly what and when) with the MOH therefore it's not something I consider into these equations. When the time comes for the MOH I'll be ready to shell out what it takes.

Flying isnt cheap. Flying a 300hp 6 seat plane sure Isn't cheap!
 
The good ol' major overhaul boogeyman.

In my neck of the airplane woods, engine OH costs exceed 50% of the resale value of the airplane, and don't command anywhere near dollar for dollar resale value after OH in this economy. They also don't make "forever airplanes" to me, as my mission goes up and it goes down with the life stage of my family. As such, these airplanes are throwaway when the engine blows up.

The ticket is to fly it run out before the engine doesn't pass inspection, get rid of it with the discounted, but non-salvage pricing at sale, and go get another airplane with a newer engine on it. At that point since the transaction costs of buying/selling become sunk, I'd either upgrade airplane class or exit stage altogether. But I'm not going to pre-pay for 2000 hours I'm not going to fly anyways (only 1300 of which are of any resale value anyways, as the first 200 and the last 500 are worth zero to the tire kickers) .If I did plan to crawl around the sky on this thing for another 20 years/2000 hours, then perhaps OH sticker prices would matter to me. Most owners don't own for that long.

I don't consider a PA-32 to be particularly special; they can be commoditized this way just like a Warrior, emotional or outlier $$ investments on the airframe notwithstanding. The rest has already been addressed: ancillary ground logistics costs are heavily regional. aka I can afford piston single ownership in craphole Mexico SW Texas, yet I can't at all in Miami-Dade. Nothing new under the sun.
 
Datadriver said:
Give it another annual or two to make that go way up
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If you bought a good plane and you arnt ham fisted, that's about right for most 4 place.

My six seat RG isn't much more than that presuming I don't add any toys or do any fluff during the annual.
 
Datadriver said:
Give it another annual or two to make that go way up
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Maybe, but what's your point?

I'm just giving a number for the cost of a base annual in the plane.

If we all want to sit around and pass around the magic eight ball regarding how much the surprise repair list is going to cost then I'll pass.

The way I look at it is there are base fixed costs that you will incur in a pa32 just like any other plane that are somewhat predictable. For those surprises you just need to have an income that can support them.

My first plane was a Cherokee 180 with 1600 hours on a regularly flown engine with no issues at all. I did the whole budget thing to see how much the plane would cost me / month. 3 months into plane ownership I had some issues with tough starts and plugs fowling badly very often. Long story short I ended up needing a full MOH. Believe me the monthly budget didn't mean **** at that point.
 
arkvet said:
Maybe, but what's your point?

If we all want to sit around and pass around the magic eight ball regarding how much the surprise repair list is going to cost then I'll pass.
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My point is that is 100/month is too low, and if you are going to baseline too little, why not only 50/month? After a few years of annuals, total the cost and divide by the number
of years to figure out what you need to baseline. Ownership costs include the surprise repair - you still have to pay for those.
I'll help: over 7 years of owning a Piper Arrow we spent $14,000 on annuals, so the number was
two thousand a year. That's for a complex vs fixed but is more realistic. That included a shop rate of 70$/hr.

I really am trying to help - not trying to be an Eeeyore.
 
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