Saratoga down off Palm Beach, FL

If these reports are accurate seems convective on the climb out?

"...A radar map on the flight-tracking site flightaware.com shows severe thunderstorm activity and the plane flying directly into the heart of it before it falls off the radar...

...The log shows that in the minutes before the Piper crashed, it climbed 729 feet per minute, followed by immediate descents of 814 feet per minute and then 817 feet per minute. The final radar hit shows a further descent of 438 feet..."
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RIP
 
That’s one of those where I can’t understand why anyone would fly into those conditions. It was a really crappy weather yesterday. What was so damn important that the flight couldn’t have been postponed...
 
The log shows that in the minutes before the Piper crashed, it climbed 729 feet per minute, followed by immediate descents of 814 feet per minute and then 817 feet per minute. The final radar hit shows a further descent of 438 feet.

Katz, of Dallas, Texas, tracks plane crashes nationwide. Under those conditions, the plane would be thrown so ferociously that the wings would be ripped off the aircraft, he said.
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I think I am missing something here. I have flown planes that climb and descend more than 1000 FPM and the wings were not ripped off.
 
Tragic and sad. Prayers for all that knew them.
 
Zeldman said:
I think I am missing something here. I have flown planes that climb and descend more than 1000 FPM and the wings were not ripped off.
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Yup, Katz (whoever that is) is definitely not an expert. I’ve gotten over 1000FPM in a 152 and the wings never budged.

Sounds like the so-called accident investigator is implying that a high rate of climb is directly correlated to a high g-loading and airframe overstress. Not the case.
 
Zeldman said:
I think I am missing something here. I have flown planes that climb and descend more than 1000 FPM and the wings were not ripped off.
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But have you been in a plane being forced down at 1000fpm by a downdraft while you were pulling hard on the yoke to climb?
 
Well something went wrong. The plane flew into a bad thunderstorm and didn’t fly out.
 
Fallsrider said:
Even if you are in solid IMC, there are still fairly easy ways to determine convective activity ahead, is there not?
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Yea.... ATC saying, turn the eff around. Togas = no radar. Storm Scope is only half the picture. ADSB/XM is like looking at it with an eye patch on. Hell, event the NFL refs woulda seen this one coming. Just 1 poor choice caused this crash. I'll bet it's not the first time he has played tag football with these storms either.
 
Fallsrider said:
Even if you are in solid IMC, there are still fairly easy ways to determine convective activity ahead, is there not?
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If you have the right equipment, yes.
 
I wouldn’t have gone through that with my boat.
 
I'll bet he saw a hole and went to punch through it, then it closed up and sucked him up into it. Total speculation, but looking at the track, it seems logical.
 
DutchRoller said:
But have you been in a plane being forced down at 1000fpm by a downdraft while you were pulling hard on the yoke to climb?
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Not while pulling the yoke. I was in a C-210 and was caught in a series of embedded level 4 and 5 thunderstorms. I tried my best to keep the wings level. The controller gave me a block altitude of 4000 feet and I was having a little trouble keeping that. I did not enjoy the ride.
 
Ryanb said:
If you have the right equipment, yes.
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This is a non-pilot speaking, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems prudent to me to have the right equipment if flying IMC, and if you're VFR only, then stay out of that stuff. I'm sure it is not always quite that simple, though.
 
Fallsrider said:
This is a non-pilot speaking, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems prudent to me to have the right equipment if flying IMC, and if you're VFR only, then stay out of that stuff. I'm sure it is not always quite that simple, though.
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Lots of variables my friend. The capabilities of the airplane can surpass the capabilities of the pilot, which is quite common.
 
Dude also landed gear up March 2, 2017.. not the brightest bulb perhaps? https://cbs12.com/news/local/small-plane-makes-hard-landing-at-lantana-airport also whoever wrote that article is a braindead idiot "after the landing gear did not collapse" ?!

Unit74 said:
totally preventable....
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..and this is why accidents like this are so annoying. Sad for the loss of life, but this guy did the aeronautical equivalent of driving his car into a brick wall. And this is more fodder for the non flying public that "small planes are just so dangerous"

Fallsrider said:
there are still fairly easy ways to determine convective activity ahead, is there not
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Even in the most barebones basic /A plane you have enough tools on the ground today to make a reasonable go or no go decision.. and get a rough idea of where the cells are, how fast are they going, what direction, etc. Many planes now have, if not full onboard radar, at least XM.. which there is a delay (so take with a big grain of salt) but this was just a suicide mission

MooneyDriver78 said:
For those of us with sailboats
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Yep.. had the summer squalls pop up. Had the anemometer come off after it hit 73 knots. Bare poles and still had the rails buried (1981 C&C 36). Good news is those particularly violent storms usually don't last very long
 
Fallsrider said:
Even if you are in solid IMC, there are still fairly easy ways to determine convective activity ahead, is there not?
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Nope. Not without on board information; radar + Stormscope preferred. Otherwise you are in the hands of ATC to try to guide you as best it can.
 
I flew north commercially out of FLL yesterday within an hour of this. actually the flight was delayed a little, although I don't know if it was specifically due to the wx. but I do know I was thinking how nasty it looked and that for me it was a non-flying day for GA. sad.
 
If you don't have any on board radar, just stay vmc and most of the time you'll be fine. Can't stay vmc? Turn around.
 
Groundpounder said:
If you don't have any on board radar, just stay vmc and most of the time you'll be fine. Can't stay vmc? Turn around.
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I'll bet he was VMC.... I dont' know the bases, but from the logs, looks like he was 5500 eastbound, then all over the place from 112-175 knots. My gut says he went low under it and found the washing machine and then the downdraft.
 
Poor decision making turned fatal.RIP
 
Zeldman said:
I think I am missing something here. I have flown planes that climb and descend more than 1000 FPM and the wings were not ripped off.
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You can climb or descend at a million feet per minute without issue. The feet/min means nothing.
It’s when the 1000 ft down INSTANTLY changes to 1000’up, then repeat.
 
Kritchlow said:
You can climb or descend at a million feet per minute without issue. The feet/min means nothing.
It’s when the 1000 ft down INSTANTLY changes to 1000’up, then repeat.
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Agreed! I have been caught in both downdrafts and updrafts of multiple hundreds of feet. Regardless wings level and let it do what it does. I’ve never been caught in a switch hit scenario but the philosophy stands.
 
DutchRoller said:
Right. The dogs didn’t have a say in the matter. It wasn’t their decision to fly into that weather. They are true victims.
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So there really is no equivalency, because the dogs were the true victims. Unbelievable. And in other news, the Titanic went down with 1500 souls and a couple of dogs. So sad for the people and the dogs!
 
Ryanb said:
Yup, Katz (whoever that is) is definitely not an expert. I’ve gotten over 1000FPM in a 152 and the wings never budged.

Sounds like the so-called accident investigator is implying that a high rate of climb is directly correlated to a high g-loading and airframe overstress. Not the case.
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I think the implication is that the ACCELERATION the aircraft experienced from the sudden transition from a 700 fpm climb to an 800 fpm descent is sufficient to rip the wings off.
 
mikea76 said:
Did he say it was an exact equivalency? Does it really matter to you if some of us also feel sad about the loss of non human life?
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People actually died in that crash, so yes, it matters to me and I will comment when someone spouts some politically correct, touchy-feely expression of empathy for humans and dogs in the same sentence. The dog's relatives probably aren't feeling the same sadness as the human's relatives. Reminds me of those nut jobs at PETA with their concern about the donkeys pulling IED carts, and their statement that humans deserve what they get but since the donkey is totally innocent, we have to do something to protect them. I love dogs as much as the next guy but wouldn't have a problem sending 10,000 dogs to their demise to save one human, and I'd smile while doing it.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
People actually died in that crash, so yes, it matters to me and I will comment when someone spouts some politically correct, touchy-feely expression of empathy for humans and dogs in the same sentence. The dog's relatives probably aren't feeling the same sadness as the human's relatives. Reminds me of those nut jobs at PETA with their concern about the donkeys pulling IED carts, and their statement that humans deserve what they get but since the donkey is totally innocent, we have to do something to protect them. I love dogs as much as the next guy but wouldn't have a problem sending 10,000 dogs to their demise to save one human, and I'd smile while doing it.
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Your last name really fits you as you are one big Johnson.
 
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