Saratoga best for my flying?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Seminole Pilot, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    I have never regarded the A36 actual useful loads as qualifying as a true 6-place airplane. An A36 Bo is what I lusted after during my many Cherokee owning years, and when I could finally "afford" (read: rationalize) one and started looking into them closely I ended up with a true 6-place twin instead.

    But with its wing the Bonanza will get up to altitudes the Cherokee 6 & derivatives, with their fat, docile airfoils have trouble achieving.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  2. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    don't punch up the PC12's....that will ruin everything. :D
     
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  3. bluesky74656

    bluesky74656 Line Up and Wait

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    More than an NA version, that’s true. But if your requirement is 170+ with 6 seats and room for bags, your options are really: a TN Saratoga, an A36 with the baggage extension, probably tips and not too heavy, or you get in to B55 or 310 territory. At that point, the Saratoga might be the most economical option.

    Again, all in my dreams. But I do a lot of dreaming, in case you couldn’t tell.

    On the other hand, if you can live with 150 knots, take the NA version and run.
     
  4. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Aha. The Bo is no longer fast enough. I knew that day would come. :D
     
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  5. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    All the low-tail PA-32 retracts (Lance, Saratoga, both turbo and otherwise) would be shown on Flightaware as P32R; and the T-tail Lance IIs as P32T.
     
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  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I doubt you'll see 170 kts in a turbo PA32....and a full load.
     
  7. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Much larger cabin, big fat wing and high useful load. All of those contribute a lot to drag.
     
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  8. bluesky74656

    bluesky74656 Line Up and Wait

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    One guy on Beechtalk got 185 out of his LOP by pouring in a ton of blood, sweat, and money. But for most other examples you’re probably right.
     
  9. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Agreed. People can't lean worth a damn. "65% power" around here is like Americans and their delusion about self-reporting as "middle class": Everybody swears "they're in it". :D
     
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  10. drotto

    drotto Cleared for Takeoff

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    Mine is an 82, that has been completely redone in the last 6 years. G500, G650, G750, new paint and new interior. I think there are 450 hrs on the engine. I see 150 knots at 65% power at 6000 feet, with 13 to 14 gph. If I go upto 75% power, the fuel burn will be 16 gph and yield about 158 knots. Like I said my useful is 1285 with AC (not that Piper air is that great).

    You can very reasonably take 4 adults, luggage for a few days, and put 70 gallons in the tanks giving you 3 1/2 hrs, and IFR reserves. So a one stop flight to Florida.

    I am base in central NJ. The Outer Banks is just shy of a two hour flight for me. I have never done it, but Northern Florida ( Jacksonville) on Foreflight clocks in at about 5 hrs 30 minutes, depending on the wind. Technically, I have the legs to make it there using full tanks (102 gallons) figuring 16 gph will give me about 6 hrs and 20 minutes in the air.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Plus the PA-32 airframe is more "rivety" than the Bo, the main gear is not fully enclosed when retracted, and there are some thinner skins and wider-spaced ribs that result in minor aerodynamic imperfections.

    For an automotive analogy to the handling, finish and fit, the Bo is a BMW sedan and the PA-32 a Chevy Suburban.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  12. arkvet

    arkvet Line Up and Wait

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    I feel I have the perfect plane for my family. Wife and 3 kids. NA fixed gear Saratoga. 1980. Club seating. As someone stated above it will literally carry the same stuff we cram in the suburban to get to the airport. 1400 useful makes it a true 6 place airplane if needed. I’ve had 4 adults and 2 teens in it on a couple occasions with over half full tanks and was well under gross

    I have a JPI 830 To really helps the fine tuning. I usually fly 6-10k feet. At 14.5gph I see 145 knots TAS. I could pour on a more fuel and HP and get close to 150 knots but it’s not worth it. 14.5 / 145 is the sweet spot that keeps everything happy.

    Being fixed gear keeps my expenses down and is one less thing to think about. Personally I wouldn’t trade my useful load for a little more speed.

    Have a good buddy with an A36. Great plane. Faster. Much less useful load and not quite as comfy/roomy inside. The pa32 cabin will spoil you.
     
  13. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    LOL. I used to be in the middle class. Then I bought an "economical" taildragger. Now I worry the govt. shutdown might delay my food stamps.
     
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  14. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How has the 210 not already been mentioned in this thread? Need a heavy lifter with six seats that’s fast, comfortable, and not out of CG? Uh.... hello?
     
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  15. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A 300hp bird at 65% LOP burns 13.1 gph...
     
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  16. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Depends on the compression ratio of the cylinders and the cylinder balancing/spread, but yes that is certainly a more adequate number than the 16-17 some people proffer, for NA engines no less.
     
  17. Seminole Pilot

    Seminole Pilot Pre-Flight

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    That would of been up there and I did originally look at them however with the majority of my flying with multiple people being my wife & 3 kids I’m not a fan of the seating layout of the 3 traditional rows. If it had a club seating I’d definitely consider as the bulk of my current flight time is in Cessnas.
     
  18. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-Flight

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    I looked at a 210 as well as the Saratoga before finding my Cherokee 6-260.

    Here is what I came across on my search -
    1.The 210 was fast but cramped for the 5th and 6th person.
    2.The Saratoga was faster than the 6 but with the retractable gear adding to the MX costs, and reducing the usaeble weight, it didn't fit our needs.
    3.The 6/300 was about 7kts faster than the 6/260 version but I would burn a bit more fuel and lose about 70lbs on average of useful.
    4. I could get into an older fixed gear Cherokee 6 for a lot less than a Saratoga or 210 which meant more $$ for flying.


    My 6/260 is new to me as of last October. Club seating. We got into it for under $60K with a low time re-man engine. I just did it's first annual and ADSB upgrade and have spent less than $4500 combined. I can run at 65% and burn 12 gph getting about 126kts. With full fuel (84 gallons) I have a minimum of a 6 hour endurance and can carry 1000lbs.

    75% gets me 133kts at 15 gph average.
     
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  19. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    I love the photo of the 6 men in these planes, all would be over gross for any meaningful trip.
     
  20. Fallsrider

    Fallsrider Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    Sounds like you found a good deal that works really well for you and your family.
     
  21. Heftiger

    Heftiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When Piper added the retract to the Cherokee 6, the max gross was increased by 200# (3400 to 3600), negating the weight increase of the retract.
     
  22. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Which field in MI ?
     
  23. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    On trips that long, I'd be looking at something faster. The speed is going to be nicer over a trip of that length, especially if you're doing it regularly. A36 comes to mind if you want to stay single, but a 310 or a Baron will offer you a great value and not too much worse on efficiency and $/mile if you look at them. I wouldn't make a big deal about club seating.
     
  24. Seminole Pilot

    Seminole Pilot Pre-Flight

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    We have a place up in Port Austin, MI (thumb of Michigan). I did most of my PPL training in Bad Axe (BAX). If we went through and bought a plane for commuting back and forth that would be where I'd keep it over the summer.
     
  25. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Lotta terrain to worry about in those parts.
    (Anyone who's been there will get the joke, it's flatter than Kansas in that part of the state)

    I'm on the west side of the state.
     
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  26. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

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    As always when considering a turbocharged engine, realize that there are days where the winds dictate that you stay low. Today is an example of one of those days, it looks like you'd have a bit of a tailwind down low on your southeast bound leg. Going back, it looks you'd have almost a direct crosswind above 6000 feet, which we all know works as a bit of a headwind, and it's pretty fierce in the teens. Today is a day where the turbo does you no good either way.
     
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  27. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    There was a guy on the piper board that claimed his fully faired six-260 would true at 142KTAS at 75% power. He had every gap seal and most importantly, the fully enclosed pants installed. This may seem like a crzay claim, but there are folks on here who do similar speeds on a FG Toga, which is just the semi tapered version of a six. So it's doable if you're willing to sink some money into the bigger drag penalties of the airframe.
     
  28. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    Those are men from when men were, um, smaller. Maybe 5' 9", maybe 150 lbs.
     
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  29. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So... I'm with you on basically everything and for similar reasons have a 205 for my personal use, which is like the 6/260 version of a 206. It's technically a 210 and unless the back seats in a "real" 210 are different, they're not as cramped as you think and they're not cramped at all for kids, which is the OP's use.

    I don't really have a dog in this fight - OP should buy whatever he gets most excited about - but if I had the described use, I'd really seriously consider a 210 or an A36, but I wouldn't let club seating influence the decision - the wow factor of club seating, in my experience, pretty much evaporates the first time you do the interlocking knee-hug with your opposite seatmate (ew). That's a long way... does a Saratoga really do 160kts? Seems at least 10 knots too fast to me.

    They're all capable, thirsty, relatively expensive to maintain, 6-seat airplanes. Pick your poison:

    Saratoga: Heavy lifting and club seating (if that's your thing) but slow, at least that's always been my understanding
    210: Fast and heavy lifting but no club seating
    A36: Fast and club seating, but not as heavy lifting / CG issues (and where to put the bags?).
     
  30. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    ok for today's metro's.....:lol:
     
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  31. drjcustis

    drjcustis Pre-Flight

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    Same discussion with my partner when we were looking. 205, 206, 210, PA32 (6/260, 6/300, Lance, Saratoga). We never found an acceptable 205, 206 or 210 while looking. Good luck on that search and be very ready to jump on a good one.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  32. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    the ad didn't say "fly with 6 full sized men", it was simply showing the room it has.
     
  33. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I consider a NA 32 variant cheap to mx. Its just a stretch arrow. Probably the cheapest to mx of all three. Now add a turbo and that assumption goes out the window.
     
  34. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    When would you need room in the rear seating for men that will never be placed in those seats? When you are marketing airplanes.
     
  35. Scott@KTYR

    Scott@KTYR Pattern Altitude

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    First off: WELCOME to POA.

    You have received a lot of great info. Let me add my 2 cents.
    As you may know the useful load of the 6, Lance, Saratoga decreases as the age gets younger.
    A 1977 lance useful load is more than any Saratoga.
    A two Blade prop is faster than a three blade prop.
    I have a friend with a 2 blade 77 lance and I had a 3 blade 77 lance ( same engine hours). We raced one day and he did 155 knots to my 145 kts at 65% power ROP.
    Normally Aspirated (NA) will burn less fuel than a Turbo. 2.5 to 3.5 GPM on average. Also Turbo does not help with speed.
    Club seats allow tall people to put there feet up in the seat and lean their seat back to stretch out and sleep. I have had many people sleep on long trips.
    I currently have a 1980 Saratoga. From Texas we have traveled to Calf., Bahamas, Montana, Ohio, and many other spots. The PA-32 is a great traveling machine. Speed is not a problem, remember you love to fly, so enjoy the trip and look at the great sights along the way.
     
  36. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    PA-32-301_piano.jpeg
     
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  37. Seminole Pilot

    Seminole Pilot Pre-Flight

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    Thank you very much & I appreciate your first hand knowledge. I think I’m leaning more towards an early 80’s Toga NA retractable with some updated avionics & lower SMOH. Found a few in the mid 100’s. Having 3 younger kids (8,6, almost 2) I think the club seats just are more practical for them during flight.

    As you noted this post has generated a lot of input & I appreciate it all!
     
  38. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Saratoga, the choice of piano movers everywhere. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
     
  39. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    FWIW.....in 4-5 years, if not now, those kids will not want their legs touching.....that's where standard seating shines. Also, you'll get more use out of the space behind the pilot's seats with the standard arrangement.

    something to think about.....;)

    here are some pics of my trip to OSH a few years ago...I was a PAX in the back of a Lance. ;)
     

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    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  40. arkvet

    arkvet Line Up and Wait

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    And Fwiw I absolutely love the club seating in my Toga. Kids have more room and stretch out nicely. On more than one occasion I’ve added another adult to our load and had 3 adults and 3 kids (ages 7, 10, 13) in the plane. Stuffed to the gills with beach supplies in the front and rear cargo.

    All smiles for the 2.5 hour trip to the beach.

    I think there are folks that frown on the club seating... that don’t have club seating. But agree it’s probably not for everyone.

    Checkout - how much stuff did you take with you? The front and rear cargo are very generous.