Saratoga, A36, or....?

Thats not near what I would have suspected... a Cessna 400 is around 70-80 if I remember correctly. I suppose it’s a much more modern engine perhaps?
 
Add 10k for r/r then, so 50 all in. Still, that's what I would expect for a tio 540.

A tsio 550 would be more , but not 80k.
 
Unit74 said:
That’s just the OH, not the local labor.
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Have you overhauled a TIO540 for 40k ? Does that price include the Turbo, the turbo transition and all he exhaust piping ? How much did you pay for R&R ?
 
No I have not. I priced it out before buying the plane 3 years ago. I’m 1300 smoh right now.
 
Yeah if that’s not total I’d like to know total as well. Also what would the total be on the 310 NA and or Turbo?
 
Expect a grand-ish for the turbo overhaul on top of that.
 
Only a grand for turbo rebuild? I’m well versed in the aftermarket automotive world and that sounds really cheap. Wouldn’t you want to replace the compressor wheels in addition to the seals? Surely in the overpriced aviation world you won’t be able to get that done for a grand?
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Yeah if that’s not total I’d like to know total as well. Also what would the total be on the 310 NA and or Turbo?
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Vref shows an overhaul on the IO-470 of the non-R 310s as $30,000, the IO-520 of the 310R at 34,000 (and yes, that's for one side only) and the TIO-540 on the PA32R as $52,000.

IME, the additional costs you'll experience for R&R, new mounts, etc. will be at least $6,000 per engine. So, figure an earlier 310 would be $72,000 all in, a 310R would be $80,000 all in, and the Turbo Saratoga would be $58,000 all in.

So, the twin is more, but not even close to double, and the Turbo does cost you a lot. The IO-540 on the NA Saratoga only costs $41,000 to overhaul so $47,000 all in - That means the turbo costs about $11,000 extra.
 
Good info flyingcheesehead, thanks! So would anyone ever think it to be a good idea to buy a maxed/very high hour plane in terms of engine hours, one that is well equipped interior and avionics wise. Then if you finance then finance the cost to rebuild the engines at the same time or would you not be ahead in this scenario vs buying something with recent overhaul?
 
Those numbers are so frigger out of touch it’s comical
 
I don’t know about the numbers on a turbo, but I can tell you what my engine shop on the field told me about my 310. I have o-470s.
37000 a piece to do a complete overhaul. That is removing it from the airplane overhaul and reinstall. Poplar Grove Airmotive is the shop. A well respected engine shop.

My 310 costs me about 60% more to operate than the 4cylinder Mooney. This varies somewhat on stage length, but it certainly isn’t double.

As far as annual goes, you have one airframe and two engines. Anybody out there that has never owned a twin will always regurgitate the same horror stories. Not that horror stories can’t happen, but they can happen with any airplane. Truth be told, I lost a few hours of sleep worrying about 12 cylinders rather than just four.

As far as a twin not being any safer than a single, well that’s just silly. It’s another wives tale passed from generation to generation. The most dangerous time in a twin is second segment climb. The difference between a single and a twin in this position, is this: in the single, you’re going to crash, in the twin, you might crash. The real benefit comes in Cruise. If engine quits in a single, you’re landing in a field, if the engine quits in a twin, you’re gonna land at an airport. Same scenario at night, in a single, you’re gonna die, and a twin, you’re gonna live.

There is something to think about with the twin versus a single, and that is training/practice with engine-out procedures.

Realistically Speaking, engines rarely quit... but they do quit. There was one off of the Malibu in the engine shop just recently threw a rod through the side of the engine. Resulted in a crash and a fatality.

My NA 310 will easily climb into the teens at gross weight.

The Toga and Bonanza and Lance are great airplanes. I loved my Mooney, but flying back from Florida in my 310 late at night last time and not having to worry about picking a place to die if the engine quit was priceless.

Just my $.02



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Unit74 said:
Those numbers are so frigger out of touch it’s comical
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Every time I've overhauled an engine they've been *exactly* what we paid the overhaul shop. I've gotten quotes at Oshkosh for my next engine (we're already past TBO) and they're within $500. If you think they're comical, how about you show us a quote for one of those engines that is way off? Because I've never seen it.
 
mwagg737 said:
My NA 310 will easily climb into the teens at gross weight.
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That's a good point - Since @Jared Kornelsen is talking about altitudes up to 13,000, a normally aspirated twin will probably climb there as fast if not faster than a turbo single. Climb is a function of excess horsepower, and since all of the mainstream twins are designed to be able to climb at least a little with one engine out, by definition they have at least 50% excess horsepower, so they do tend to climb well... At least, until one of those engines quits, but at that point you're probably not worried about getting into the cool air any more.
 
ircphoenix said:
I mean... Unless we're talking fuel exhaustion or contamination... Then two isn't better than one. :D
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Well, twins never go down over water, just like she can't get pregnant when on top. I mean that's just science. Always remember your ME training morning calisthenics chant: twin, you live, single, you DIE!
tenor.gif
 
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I don’t think it’s a settled thing always that twin equals live and single equals die. In this area I would be very confident in walking away from an engine failure at night, wouldn’t hardly even be worried. Almost everything here is agriculture, either peanuts, cotton, or wheat and it’s very flat. However if your flying over mountains or unforgiving terrain then I can definitely see that being close to the case unless you get lucky.

mwagg737 what kind of Mooney did you have and how did the Mooney perform vs the 310?
 
The Turbo Lance and the Saratoga Turbo SP use the TIO-540-S1AD engine. FWIW Airpower lists a factory overhaul for those between $60,964 and $62,275

A straight Lance or Saratoga has something like a IO-540-K1G5. Airpower lists those between $42,442 and $44,776

In my experience, Lycoming OH prices are about $5000-8000 higher than what other reputable shops will quote. I suspect relative between NA and turbo, they will come out to be about the same. Most of the overhaul shops send the pieces to the same shops for NDT and machining, so unless there are wild differences in pricing charged to different overhaulers, I they all come out pretty close.

As for why the 'T' on the Lycomings adds so much to the overhaul, its not the spinny bits that make it so, but the exhaust around it. Lycoming uses some exotic steels for that part and one of them, the 'transition' is apparently hand-whittled from solid blocks of unobtainium by a crew of unionized switch watchmakers. Even if its in good shape, overhauling that piece has an eyewatering pricetag.

I am sure 'there is a guy' who can overhaul your TIO-540-S1AD including turbo, exhaust and mags in his barn for $40,000 all-in. Maybe he'll even install it using new engine mounts and hoses for 500 bucks too. I am sure he is out there, somewhere.
 
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Is Corona a backyard shop? They will do it for $35k. Gann does it for $45k, which is who mine was done with and with 1300 hours on it, no problems other than standard MX and one cylinder replacement 300 hours ago. Sure, factory or “boutique” shops will be eye watering, but many, many shops have solid reps and not even close to those prices. If that makes you feel good, then, OK. It’s your checkbook.

I’m just a realist.... no doom and gloom shock therapy on the OP. I anticipate under $50k for an OH R/R included. Maybe more if unserviceable parts are found, which is not unreasonable to expect.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
mwagg737 what kind of Mooney did you have and how did the Mooney perform vs the 310?
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I had a 75 f model. 200 horsepower. IO360.
The Mooney is a great 3-person or less airplane. We got four in, but we were overweight and it's a tight squeeze. With me only on hoard, the Mooney would climb at 800fpm and cruise at 151KTAS. At gross, it was 500FPM and 135KTAS in cruise.

The 310 outperforms the Mooney in every aspect except fuel economy. Climb with me only is roughly 2000FPM and 1200 at gross. Cruise is 180 with me and 175 at gross.

Believe it or not, the 310 is a better short-field performer. It's begging to fly long before redline (Vmc).




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Idk it may come down to what’s available out there once the time comes because I like all 3. The seating in the Lance and Toga would be better for little kids but other than that minor pretty insignificant drawback to the 310 I wouldn’t be afraid of getting a 310. If it was a Toga I would like the last generation though with the updated cowling etc but those would be at the top of the price range. The Lance seems like you may be able to get into for cheaper if you wanted the later model Togas. Then the 310’s are all over the place, some are low hours and around 100k or less maybe but have little else going for them and others are low hrs, decked out with a great panel and awesome paint and go for towards the top of my price range.
 
Buy a Lance. You get more bang for the buck. The only diff is 15 min on a long XC. Seriously. You'll pay damn near double the price on a Toga, but your ROI is nil. I shopped long and hard and Lance won every time for 5 pax. I wanted a Bo at all costs. Logic kept saying Lance. Tried to buy a Bo with an offer he couldn't refuse, which he did. Glad I ended up in a Lance. My heard has outgrown the Bo already in three years. Bags or a body would have to be left at home. Not so with the Lance. It's the Chevy of planes. It won't be a head turner, but it will get you there in comfort and the trunk full.
 
Unit74 said:
Buy a Lance. You get more bang for the buck. The only diff is 15 min on a long XC. Seriously. You'll pay damn near double the price on a Toga, but your ROI is nil. I shopped long and hard and Lance won every time for 5 pax. I wanted a Bo at all costs. Logic kept saying Lance. Tried to buy a Bo with an offer he couldn't refuse, which he did. Glad I ended up in a Lance. My heard has outgrown the Bo already in three years. Bags or a body would have to be left at home. Not so with the Lance. It's the Chevy of planes. It won't be a head turner, but it will get you there in comfort and the trunk full.
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You have the T Tail? I keep going back and forth on a Lance but hear not so great things about T Tails but they seem most prevalent on market right now. Togas seems to be a good 50-75K more...
 
Seminole Pilot said:
You have the T Tail? I keep going back and forth on a Lance but hear not so great things about T Tails but they seem most prevalent on market right now. Togas seems to be a good 50-75K more...
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Yes I do. Turbo Lance II.

The T tail argument is like that Chicken Little cartoon...... Was it a stupid move by Piper? Yes. Is it that big a deal? No. I have yet to see a "Normal" Lance get in where I could not. I'd challenge any Lance driver to a land-off. I can drop it on the numbers and make the first turn off all day long. Hell, I usually have to add power to get the hell off the runway for landing traffic! But some BS article by Plane and Pilot mag years ago made it sound like T tails would be akin to a C-5 Galaxy on runway use and completely fall out of the sky under 100 kts. Any time I hear flak about it, it is almost always from some clown vomiting what he "heard" on the webz and most likely from that P&P article crapping all over the plane like he was a Textron salesman. The T tail is a great plane that hauls people and stuff extremely well.

I'll fly anyone who wants to check out a T tail. Show me your pilots license and I'll take you up gratis. Buy me a burger if you feel guilty about it.
 
I attached some very telling numbers. For what will most likely be my main flight length 165-190kts makes 18mins difference, or if we go on vaca to let’s say Jackson Wyoming it would be about a 37mins difference. For let’s say around 60% more cost and a purchase price most likely 30-50k more for a really nice 310... idk doesn’t hardly seem worth it just for the speed anyway.

BUT here is another question that may become important to me, grass/dirt strips, Lance or 310? My initial thought is 310 would be way better there but correct me if I’m wrong and tell me why please.
 

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A little off topic but I cleaned up the Mooney today, 421 is photobombing. That planes makes it from here to DFW in about 1hr 45mins, I know the pilot, but we’ve had the 421 discussion already.
 

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Jared Kornelsen said:
BUT here is another question that may become important to me, grass/dirt strips, Lance or 310? My initial thought is 310 would be way better there but correct me if I’m wrong and tell me why please.
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Neither... Buy a PC-24. It will be certified for unimproved surfaces... :rockon:

I've been into a few 2500k grass strips with ease. Gaston's probably 3-4 times now. A few others, but none as bumpy has Gaston's nor with the "speed launch" system aka hump in the middle that makes you airborne before Vr.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
A little off topic but I cleaned up the Mooney today, 421 is photobombing. That planes makes it from here to DFW in about 1hr 45mins, I know the pilot, but we’ve had the 421 discussion already.
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A Mooney.... Where the Pilot also flies as Cargo. A great bird for single occupant airplanes! Hangar-mate has an Ovation. I hate him. Seriously. Hate and envy are interchangeable.
 
Well I’m glad to hear from actual owners that they are not what I had been lead to believe they where, and personally I live the looks of the t tail... back to the grass strip topic, would a 310 not be in the air a lot quicker than a lance though? I would love to have a grass strip right at the house in the country in the future is why I ask.
 
465d75aea86db7c7e42ff746fc2dce25.jpg


I think the T-Tail is sexy. But I might be partial...
 
Unit74 said:
some BS article by Plane and Pilot mag years ago made it sound like T tails would be akin to a C-5 Galaxy on runway use and completely fall out of the sky under 100 kts. Any time I hear flak about it, it is almost always from some clown vomiting what he "heard" on the webz and most likely from that P&P article crapping all over the plane like he was a Textron salesman.
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Hmmm. Has Plane and Pilot ever done a hit piece about the interior dimensions of a Mooney? 'Cuz that's the OWT I hear all. the. freaking. time. I find the Mooney very comfy and I'm 6'4" 300+.

I always thought it was jealous Bonanza owners, but I have no evidence...

Jared Kornelsen said:
BUT here is another question that may become important to me, grass/dirt strips, Lance or 310? My initial thought is 310 would be way better there but correct me if I’m wrong and tell me why please.
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@Ted DuPuis brought his 310 to Gaston's a couple years ago... And I think the nose gear on the 310s is stronger than it looks, but ya gotta be sure to rig it at EVERY annual.
 
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