Santa Barbara and VFR, fog, marine layer, etc.

[Tantalum]

Looking to fly up to Santa Barbara for the weekend VFR from San Diego area... I've mapped the route out in Foreflight and looks easy enough using the coastal route to transit the Bravo, which I am familiar with

However I've never been to Santa Barbara and I've been tracking the weather there for the last several mornings and it doesn't look promising... it's been low IFR until the late morning and into the noon hour

Goal was to leave Gillespie at 9 am which puts me landing at SBA right around 11...

**In your opinions, is this a trip that I should hold off of until instrument rated, or for those of you familiar with the area does the fog burn off pretty reliably and consistently? Santa Ynez has been consistently VFR so that looks like a good alternative, but that's a 40 minute Uber ride to Santa Barbara... so I'm not loving that idea

P.S. - I did search but couldn't find anything about SBA outside of the "cool places to fly" thread, so if this has already been hashed out once just point me in the right direction

 

[James331]

It's not hard to trend it, it burns off pretty good, just pick a warmish day and have a alternate like you mentioned, it's also possible to tuck under it if it's MVFR, lots of VFR folks do just fine.

 

[MAKG1]

Is it dangerous? No. Marine layer can be overflown quite easily, and you have an out. Just don't proceed into it. If the undercast makes you nervous, transition through inland valleys.

Fly out there, and if it's not adequate, land at Santa Ynez. Maybe wait an hour and pop over.

I've been watching the weather down there, and it's not landable even with an instrument rating. E.g., LGB today reported variable visibility to 100 feet and a runway visual range of 600. Well below ILS Cat I minimums.

What you do not want is a situation where you feel you have to land in marginal or worse conditions, right now.

 

[MAKG1]

It's not hard to trend it, it burns off pretty good, just pick a warmish day and have a alternate like you mentioned, it's also possible to tuck under it if it's MVFR, lots of VFR folks do just fine.

Flying under marine layer is not advisible. It's seldom much above 1000 AGL, and that's over a city with mountains around. Over the water, the marine layer can descend to the surface.

 

[James331]

Flying under marine layer is not advisible. It's seldom much above 1000 AGL, and that's over a city with mountains around. Over the water, the marine layer can descend to the surface.

Depends on the ceiling, also times its above that, there are times it's a bit higher than 1k, also depends on how far it's come in, flew there tons, just being situationally aware and having a plan B is all that's needed, marine layer isn't always a deal breaker for VFR, and no where near enough of a boogie man to say to stay away till you're IFR

 

[coloradobluesky]

Well, Santa Barbara is reporting 1/2 mile visibility and overcast at 200' right now (10:30 am California time). So you wouldnt be able to make it in VFR now. Look at the TAFs for later. It improves, but not that much soon.

IFR that 1/2 mile visibility is really minimal. Its the low vis that makes approaches difficult. Its right at minimums now, IFR.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, Santa Barbara is reporting 1/2 mile visibility and overcast at 200' right now (12:30 pm California time).

Umm, that's in two hours.

That's right at ILS Cat I minimums. Hit or miss with an instrument rating.

If it were me and I were VFR only, and I got over Malibu with reports of problematic weather at SBA, I'd fly to CMA and get an early bite to eat, then proceed on when SBA reported VFR weather.

Almost all the airports in the region are VFR right now. Just not SBA.

 

[Vance Breese]

The fog is not predictable and often very localized.

An alternate is usually easy.

Mountain obscuration can be a problem near SBA.

 

[Tantalum]

Thanks guys, I've lived out here for a while and am used to flying over the marine layer, but that's usually when I'm going somewhere ultimately inland or know without a doubt that the destination is clear VFR.. usually for me the marine layer is just something you fly over, but don't directly have to contend with

Depends on the ceiling, also times its above that, there are times it's a bit higher than 1k, also depends on how far it's come in, flew there tons, just being situationally aware and having a plan B is all that's needed, marine layer isn't always a deal breaker for VFR

If I was going alone as just a XC hours building mission it wouldn't even be crossing my mind to consider not going since there are plenty of alternate airports up and down that route and plenty opportunities to turn around, it would be a good learning experience.. but I'll be bringing family and my own rule of thumb with non pilot friends and family is to basically only go when things are textbook perfect.. part of that is for safety, but mostly because I want make good experiences for the non flying folks. There is more than enough negative opinions out there about GA so if I can change that opinion one flight at a time then I feel like I'm doing at least my (small) part for the GA community

 

[Tantalum]

Almost all the airports in the region are VFR right now. Just not SBA.

That's what's been killing me!!!!! It's all be clear VFR except for SBA lately which, I agree, even with an instrument rating would be dicey at best given some of the conditions I've seen the last few mornings... maybe next time I'll plan my weekend getaway trip for PSP, have never had an issue getting in there (at least not yet) and Banning Pass is a cool area to fly through

 

[comanchepilot]

Once the high relaxes a little the next day or so, so will the marine layer. When the tops get over [or under] 1000' the layer burns off much earlier - with the high sun angle now - that'll help too.

SBA is kind of funny since its E-W basically topography. So the SW flow brings in the layer from the west and the winds from the south.

The thing is the marine layers doesn't go north often - so you will not only have Santa Ynez, but Camarillo and of course Burbank to land as the solid gold VFR out.

As for Banning Pass - NOT WHEN THE WINDS ARE ABOVE about 25knots . . . out of the north or east. You'll get continuous moderate and occasionally severe.

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks guys, I've lived out here for a while and am used to flying over the marine layer, but that's usually when I'm going somewhere ultimately inland or know without a doubt that the destination is clear VFR.. usually for me the marine layer is just something you fly over, but don't directly have to contend with



If I was going alone as just a XC hours building mission it wouldn't even be crossing my mind to consider not going since there are plenty of alternate airports up and down that route and plenty opportunities to turn around, it would be a good learning experience.. but I'll be bringing family and my own rule of thumb with non pilot friends and family is to basically only go when things are textbook perfect.. part of that is for safety, but mostly because I want make good experiences for the non flying folks. There is more than enough negative opinions out there about GA so if I can change that opinion one flight at a time then I feel like I'm doing at least my (small) part for the GA community

I'm taking my family to LA next month, and they get to see all the contingency planning.

Even airliners don't have perfect dispatch.

 

[James331]

Once the high relaxes a little the next day or so, so will the marine layer. When the tops get over [or under] 1000' the layer burns off much earlier - with the high sun angle now - that'll help too.

SBA is kind of funny since its E-W basically topography. So the SW flow brings in the layer from the west and the winds from the south.

The thing is the marine layers doesn't go north often - so you will not only have Santa Ynez, but Camarillo and of course Burbank to land as the solid gold VFR out.

As for Banning Pass - NOT WHEN THE WINDS ARE ABOVE about 25knots . . . out of the north or east. You'll get continuous moderate and occasionally severe.

25kts? Why not, slow to va and carry on, been there done that.

Biggiest issue is PSP, better off people and environment wise going to big bear.

 

[Shawn]

Flying under marine layer is not advisible. It's seldom much above 1000 AGLL

My experience is that is not necessarily an accurate blanket statement. While the marine layer can easily extends down to the surface and often does, it can also just as easily have 2,000-2,500' ceiling with +10sm vis beneath as it is lifting with the edge being right on the field making VFR arrival easy. I see that all the time both out here on the Nor Cal coast and down in SoCal. Many a times I have been able to comfortably duck under the marine layer without "scud running".

Now, wide spread low ceilings in unfamiliar terrain with a higher personal minimum due to PAX...yeah I agree, different story...but to the the OP, I always hope for the best but plan for the worst on a trip like that when VFR. More times than not I have been able to get in VFR had I not laid my own eyes on the situation vs scrubbing the flight waiting for ideal conditions to be reported...but always have an out and plan B if not a B and C.

That is where constant monitoring of temp and dew point spreads along with overall hourly forecast can be a huge benefit to know what conditions will be trending towards upon arrival vs just waiting for the Foreflight dot to turn green before departure.

Based on this current forecast for SBA:

Saturday: Patchy dense fog before 11am. Otherwise, mostly sunny, with a high near 68.

I would personally still be heading there but maybe just push my arrival time later from 11am as you proposed just a bit to say 11:30 or 12. Once it burns off it is is usually severe VMC.

 

[Tantalum]

Thanks all for the great replies. Low and behold SBA just went VFR, right around noon CA time as usual... Big Bear by the way is a great spot and love flying into there as well with just one or two people in a 172 or a nice cool high pressure day...

 

[comanchepilot]

25kts? Why not, slow to va and carry on, been there done that.

Biggiest issue is PSP, better off people and environment wise going to big bear.

you must like getting hammered - I came through the pass one day and my dog was floating . . .

 

[MAKG1]

25kts? Why not, slow to va and carry on, been there done that.

Biggiest issue is PSP, better off people and environment wise going to big bear.

In severe turbulence?

Sure, in occasional moderate, provided the passengers know what they are getting into and aren't about to hork. Continuous moderate is no fun at all. Occasional severe can be painful. Continuous severe is stupid.

Remember what severe turbulence means. It means momentary loss of control with large airspeed and altitude excursions.

And 25 knots at altitude can be magnified quite a bit in a pass.

I passed on a trip through Grapevine last summer when a PIREP of 45 knots wind shear came out of it. In a 172 flying at Va (light), that could be either a stall or an overspeed (over Vno -- faster is not warranted in such conditions).

 

[comanchepilot]

Thanks all for the great replies. Low and behold SBA just went VFR, right around noon CA time as usual... Big Bear by the way is a great spot and love flying into there as well with just one or two people in a 172 or a nice cool high pressure day...

just remember that it goes back just as fast! If you can't accept an IFR on top clearance then you're stuck until tomorrow - or can find an IFR rated pilot who is willing it take a train ticket from you!

 

[jkaduk]

One thing to be careful of at SBA is that you could get in OK but if the fog rolls in while you're there, you're stuck. Happens at Catalina a lot too.

 

[jkaduk]

just remember that it goes back just as fast! If you can't accept an IFR on top clearance then you're stuck until tomorrow - or can find an IFR rated pilot who is willing it take a train ticket from you!

Beat me to it!

 

[Tantalum]

Yep... getting stuck there certainly crossed my mind too! Flipping this around, I could also just change my game plan and aim for Santa Ynez instead... I'll keep tracking the forecast and make a final call Thursday afternoon. If I end up going by air I'll be sure to update this thread with photos and a report

 

[ejensen]

One thing to be careful of at SBA is that you could get in OK but if the fog rolls in while you're there, you're stuck. Happens at Catalina a lot too.

Some times Catalina Is fogged in low but airport is sitting in the sun. Still not a good idea unless you want spent the night.

 

[ejensen]

Fog 'usually' clears up. Sat all day at Santa Maria KSMX all day waiting for the ceilings to lift above 100. IFR was not even an option.

 

[3 in the green]

25kts? Why not, slow to va and carry on, been there done that.

Biggiest issue is PSP, better off people and environment wise going to big bear.

It's not 25 kts in the pass. It's effectively waaay more than that IN the pass, because the pass is essentially a venturi tube. It's terrible when winds are up, not fun at all.

With respect to the fog and the OP's question, it's been socked in this last week. I work right by the coast in Newport and have an admittedly awesome and commanding view of the entire coastline...except I haven't been able to see the ocean at all in days, and the layer was even socking SNA in mid-afternoon when I started driving home yesterday. It never fully cleared out. All morning I couldn't even see 200' across the street to a neighboring building.

 

[Ventucky Red]

However I've never been to Santa Barbara and I've been tracking the weather there for the last several mornings and it doesn't look promising... it's been low IFR until the late morning and into the noon hour

SBA, the fog has been coming and going all week. May want to look at KIZA or KCMA... KCMA has the Waypoint Cafe. I am taking a class close to there and free for lunch if you want to meet.. KIZA has few good restaurants close or get a ride into Solvang..

 

[Tantalum]

SBA, the fog has been coming and going all week. May want to look at KIZA or KCMA... KCMA has the Waypoint Cafe. I am taking a class close to there and free for lunch if you want to meet.. KIZA has few good restaurants close or get a ride into Solvang..

Thanks, appreciate the offer and I'll have to take you up on it next time I'm up there. KIZA does seems like a safe VFR option (and a cool airport and area in its own right) but that starts to throw some wrenches into the plans overall since we have a schedule to operate around in Santa Barbara so flexibility is limited unfortunately. Might just end up driving from San Diego, since that would take some stress out of getting up there and potentially getting stuck Sunday on the way back

Some times Catalina Is fogged in low but airport is sitting in the sun.

Catalina's Airport in the Sky is definitely on my short list of places to fly to. Have taken the ferry and Avalon is a cool town. I wouldn't go non stop from Gillespie though, I'd fly out towards San Pedro then make the turn out, my engine has an "auto rough" feature anytime its over water. Back on the east coast it was a routine weekend trip to Montauk, Block Island, ACK, MVY, but those overwater portions are relatively short and unless you are real low in altitude you're well within gliding range of land

 

[James331]

In severe turbulence?

Sure, in occasional moderate, provided the passengers know what they are getting into and aren't about to hork. Continuous moderate is no fun at all. Occasional severe can be painful. Continuous severe is stupid.

Remember what severe turbulence means. It means momentary loss of control with large airspeed and altitude excursions.

And 25 knots at altitude can be magnified quite a bit in a pass.

I passed on a trip through Grapevine last summer when a PIREP of 45 knots wind shear came out of it. In a 172 flying at Va (light), that could be either a stall or an overspeed (over Vno -- faster is not warranted in such conditions).

Severe????

I've been through the pass when it was blowing a good clip over 25kts and I had control of the plane the entire time, wasn't a smooth ride by any measure, but "severe" no.

I went off of what BNG was reporting as well as how fast the windmills were going.

Going west and up over BALDI intersection is another option if you're flying with more fragile stuff/people in the plane.

 

[comanchepilot]

Severe????

I've been through the pass when it was blowing a good clip over 25kts and I had control of the plane the entire time, wasn't a smooth ride by any measure, but "severe" no.

I went off of what BNG was reporting as well as how fast the windmills were going.

Going west and up over BALDI intersection is another option if you're flying with more fragile stuff/people in the plane.

I said winds from the north above 25mph. Folks need to read ALL the words because - sometimes - all the words matter.

When winds are from north above the mountains above 25mph you then get all sorts of CAT inside the venturi of the pass.

It's just like the violent winds you see in lenticulars - you're gonna get hammered. I've been through the pass and its NEVER - EVER been 'smooth.' Even with a wind just from 250 - which is the angle of the pass -you get minor jiggles somewhere.

 

[James331]

Oh I know, I've been through that pass tons, and flown around that area a ton, but I've never had real severe turbulence in the pass.

That word goes with the aircraft being temporarily out of control

 

[Tantalum]

My own personal tolerance for turbulence changes depending on the pax, and type of pax. Most people find turbulence, even mild bumps in commercial airliners unsettling, so I'm vigilant of that. Flying over mountain passes I give myself 2,000 AGL to avoid any serious downdrafts, but even alone or with other pilots I don't think I've experienced anything beyond moderate, or at least I've never felt like I had lost control of the plane. Perhaps my faith in engineers and maneuvering speed is a little heavy, but math is math so I feel pretty safe trusting that the wings won't break off. The inflight breakups I've read about all seemed to have resulted in departure from controlled flight and a situation where Vne was healthily passed

 

[mr_happyland]

Santa Ynez is a great airport to fly into. It's beautiful countryside and an easy walk down into the town for a bite to eat....or you could Uber over to Solvang or Los Olivos. As others have said, you could always just hang out there for an hour or two for the marine layer to burn off.

 

[comanchepilot]

My own personal tolerance for turbulence changes depending on the pax, and type of pax. Most people find turbulence, even mild bumps in commercial airliners unsettling, so I'm vigilant of that. Flying over mountain passes I give myself 2,000 AGL to avoid any serious downdrafts, but even alone or with other pilots I don't think I've experienced anything beyond moderate, or at least I've never felt like I had lost control of the plane. Perhaps my faith in engineers and maneuvering speed is a little heavy, but math is math so I feel pretty safe trusting that the wings won't break off. The inflight breakups I've read about all seemed to have resulted in departure from controlled flight and a situation where Vne was healthily passed

2000 AGL is a great idea - but when the peaks are 10-14k it sometimes becomes a challenge - plus you're gonna need O2. And in summer maybe you can get up there or not normally aspirated. . . .

 

[Tantalum]

2000 AGL is a great idea - but when the peaks are 10-14k it sometimes becomes a challenge - plus you're gonna need O2. And in summer maybe you can get up there or not normally aspirated. . . .

Yep, it's sobering on a hot day to be struggling to climb over 9K and still see land ahead of you

 

[cessna182b]

Looking to fly up to Santa Barbara for the weekend VFR from San Diego area... I've mapped the route out in Foreflight and looks easy enough using the coastal route to transit the Bravo, which I am familiar with

However I've never been to Santa Barbara and I've been tracking the weather there for the last several mornings and it doesn't look promising... it's been low IFR until the late morning and into the noon hour

Goal was to leave Gillespie at 9 am which puts me landing at SBA right around 11...

**In your opinions, is this a trip that I should hold off of until instrument rated, or for those of you familiar with the area does the fog burn off pretty reliably and consistently? Santa Ynez has been consistently VFR so that looks like a good alternative, but that's a 40 minute Uber ride to Santa Barbara... so I'm not loving that idea

P.S. - I did search but couldn't find anything about SBA outside of the "cool places to fly" thread, so if this has already been hashed out once just point me in the right direction

Generally, if one side is socked in the other is clear. This morning there was fog on both sides. Monday through Wednesday the Santa Barbara side had mucho fog, while the
Valley was clear. Thursday, Santa Barbara was clear and the Santa Ynez Valley was socked in. You never know. However the fog is mostly a spring/summer thing (on the ocean
side, anyway). Usually burns off sometime in the morning (but not always).

How do I know? I drive to work over San Marcos Pass daily M-F.

Dave
40+ year Santa Barbarian
Been based at both SBA and IZA

 

[Rob58]

Here's an alternate suggestion... plan a flight to SBP (San Luis Obispo), about 30 minutes past SBA. If SBA looks good land there; if not continue to SBP which is far enough inland that the marine layer almost always burns off by 10am if it makes it there at all. SBP has every bit as much to see and do as SBA (please don't tell everyone) and the fuel is cheaper too. ACI Jet is a great FBO and will treat you like a VIP. Worst case scenario if SBP was IFR you could go another 10 minutes to Paso Robles and call me and I will come and pick you up.

 

[Tantalum]

Worst case scenario if SBP was IFR you could go another 10 minutes to Paso Robles and call me and I will come and pick you up.

Thanks! Offer is appreciated. We had a busy schedule in SBA so ended up driving instead of flying... it was foggy most of the weekend with limited visibility so think I made the right call. Next time I plan a trip though to head up the coast it'll be in the winter and will leave the sched more open. SBP is definitely on the list of places to check out as well in the future, have been in the town before and it's a cool place. Oceano seems like a neat spot to fly in to as well

 

[MAKG1]

Oceano is a cool spot. SBP is .. OK. It's a surprisingly long drive into town, but flying over Morro Rock and by the nuclear power plant (don't loiter!) is nice. SLO is a nice place, though. PRB has the rescue zoo next to the airport, an old warbird museum, a bunch of nearby wineries, and a not-too-long drive into town.

If you're trying to get into Santa Barbara, and the coast is fogged in, SMX would be half as far as SLO, and still inland. Then, you get to laugh at the pink centerline (the DC10 air tanker based there seems to have a bit of a leak).

Any of these places is a good spot for excellent tri-tip, as is pretty much any spot from Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz.

 

[Tantalum]

As for Banning Pass - NOT WHEN THE WINDS ARE ABOVE about 25knots . . . out of the north or east. You'll get continuous moderate and occasionally severe.

It was pretty bumpy this weekend. 90 KIAS with only about 65 over the ground climbing out of PSP. Nothing I would call heavy or severe but definitely some consistent light with occasional moderate thrown in

better off people and environment wise going to big bear.

... that will be the next trip. Been to Big Bear before and it's a cool spot

 

[danhagan]

I said winds from the north above 25mph. Folks need to read ALL the words because - sometimes - all the words matter.

When winds are from north above the mountains above 25mph you then get all sorts of CAT inside the venturi of the pass.

It's just like the violent winds you see in lenticulars - you're gonna get hammered. I've been through the pass and its NEVER - EVER been 'smooth.' Even with a wind just from 250 - which is the angle of the pass -you get minor jiggles somewhere.

I've flown out there 6 times (12 since round trip Texas to California). I have DEFINITELY been livin' large and been lucky as I've had silky smooth each time through there (now I've just jinxed my next trip).

 

[comanchepilot]

I went through Banning the first time I flew to LA when I moved. I'll be honest - that was prob continuous moderate turb occasionally severe. Yes = I know the definition. There was one section where we got slammed in an updraft and then a down draft immediately next to each other - and my friend looked back and the dog was levitating about a foot off the floorboards. It was vicious for about 10 min.

And yes, I've been through there a few times since - and I've occasionally seen some moderate chop - never any sustained turbulence - nothing ever as bad as that first time - but even in summer - with marine layer conditions, clear air, winds aloft from the SW at 10kts aloft- I've gotten a jiggle or two near the eastern edge of San Jacinto.