Sailor Opinions Needed (NA)

[Dan Smith]

We sold our Catalina 22 two years ago since the amount of sailing we did on it wasn't worth the PITA factor of annual storage, bottom painting, put in, pull out, etc. However, while Zumas and Sunfishes are fun, easy, and cheap, they're not enough. We're thinking about picking up a used pocket cruiser, and have been considering either an older Cape Dory Typhoon as a fixer-upper, or a newer Montgomery 17. If anyone has any opinions or advice on these boats, or suggestions for others we should consider in the 16-19 foot range, we'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Dan (and Chris)

 

[Bill]

Inland or coastal? Space or sailing qualities more important? We had a West Wight Potter 19 for a while, and she was a nice little boat, well built, robust, but needed a breeze to get going. A light air boat she was not.

I'm now looking to get rid of our Beachcomber 25 and look for a C scow.

 

[Henning]

We sold our Catalina 22 two years ago since the amount of sailing we did on it wasn't worth the PITA factor of annual storage, bottom painting, put in, pull out, etc. However, while Zumas and Sunfishes are fun, easy, and cheap, they're not enough. We're thinking about picking up a used pocket cruiser, and have been considering either an older Cape Dory Typhoon as a fixer-upper, or a newer Montgomery 17. If anyone has any opinions or advice on these boats, or suggestions for others we should consider in the 16-19 foot range, we'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Dan (and Chris)

The Cape Dory Typhoon would be my choice of the two, but really both are too small for me to call a pocket cruiser, just not enough room to do anything but get out of the rain.

Want a neat and fun trailerable? shallow draft? Fast too (won the freakin Trans Pac)? Hobie 33.


Want a trailerable all weather cruiser? Slow though, Nor'Sea 27.

 

[Henning]

Inland or coastal? Space or sailing qualities more important? We had a West Wight Potter 19 for a while, and she was a nice little boat, well built, robust, but needed a breeze to get going. A light air boat she was not.

I'm now looking to get rid of our Beachcomber 25 and look for a C scow.

Heh Heh, C-scow...now there's a handfull to sail. I used to put Hobie 16s to shame with them. Nothing like a spinnaker ride in a scow to get the blood pumping. If you're looking for a project one, there was one sitting on a mooring in Newport Harbor CA in between Harbor & Lido islands that I always wanted to get my hands on and restore. Beautifully constructed wood scow.

 

[Dan Smith]

The Cape Dory Typhoon would be my choice of the two, but really both are too small for me to call a pocket cruiser, just not enough room to do anything but get out of the rain.

Well, that's really all we're looking for. We'd be using it for trips around Lake Champlain or light coastal cruising around Maine; something that allow us to keep ourselves and some stuff dry, and would allow use to do an overnight if the trip called for it. As with airplanes, our object is to avoid buying more than we really need on a routine basis.

Dan

 

[Dan Smith]

Inland or coastal? Space or sailing qualities more important? We had a West Wight Potter 19 for a while, and she was a nice little boat, well built, robust, but needed a breeze to get going. A light air boat she was not.

I'm now looking to get rid of our Beachcomber 25 and look for a C scow.

I guess simplicity, purchase cost, and ease of sailing are primary, with enough dry space that we could get a little beyond basic daysailing. My wife is a novice sailor and wants to do more, but neither of us is into racing or "serious" sailing at this point. We want to expand the capabilities without moving back to the headache zone.

Dan

 

[tdager]

Dan, as Bill asked, what type of sailing?

Recommendations for coastal vs. lake are going to be different, but I imagine you know that.

The latest issue of Lattitudes & Attitudes (#77) has an article on the new Com-Pac 16 pocket cruiser if you can get a copy of the magazine to check it out. It seems like a fun one.

 

[Dan Smith]

Dan, as Bill asked, what type of sailing?

Recommendations for coastal vs. lake are going to be different, but I imagine you know that.

The latest issue of Lattitudes & Attitudes (#77) has an article on the new Com-Pac 16 pocket cruiser if you can get a copy of the magazine to check it out. It seems like a fun one.

Thanks, we'll check it out. As far as lake vs. coastal, our first thought is lake, since that's where we spend most of our time. It may be that in the long term we'll have a boat at each location. The plane may be getting sold anyway, so...

Dan

 

[Bill]

Heh Heh, C-scow...now there's a handfull to sail. I used to put Hobie 16s to shame with them. Nothing like a spinnaker ride in a scow to get the blood pumping. If you're looking for a project one.

There are several for sale at our club, and I'm in Chattanooga, so it is very light air most of the year. Things like C's, MC's, Hobie's, etc., go in the light air, my tank boat does not. The Beachcomber was designed to be a beachable coastal cruiser, and as such, most reside in Florida. I'm hoping someone down there would want a nice one with the two cyl Yanmar inboard diesel.

I thought she'd make a perfect family camping boat, but turns out the family doesn't have much interest in sailing. The C can be sailed single handed (with a bit of jumping aound) in the light air and be fun, and on the windy days grab another person for some REAL fun.

 

[Henning]

The C can be sailed single handed (with a bit of jumping aound) in the light air and be fun, and on the windy days grab another person for some REAL fun.

Heck, put a chute tube in the foredeck and you can pop a chute single handed as well. You hook your knee over the tiller, a sheet in each hand and trim the guy with your teeth! Woo Hooo! First planing sailboat I played with.

 

[AdamZ]

Dan It sounds as you are looking for a Day Sailor. I was gonna suggest a Flying Dutchman fast and fun and can hold a few. But if ya wanna keep yourself dry have you considered a McGregor. The McGregor 16 is a nice boat. Not real sexy but sounds as if it fits your bill. This keel boat looks kinda neat as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cape-Cod-Bullseye-16-foot-classic-daysailer_W0QQitemZ140030722730QQihZ004QQcategoryZ63729QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I just got a Used sunfish. I wanted something up in your range but the purpose was to teach my 10YO daughter and there is nothing more basic than a sunfish. Good luck

 

[Ghery]

Or if you want something a bit larger, Hunter makes some nice trailerables. My 23.5 has water ballast and moves quite well (with a clean bottom).

 

[infotango]

I just got a Used sunfish. I wanted something up in your range but the purpose was to teach my 10YO daughter and there is nothing more basic than a sunfish. Good luck

The sunfish is a blast to sail.

 

[Dan Smith]

The sunfish is a blast to sail.

My wife just loves hers!

 

[cameronbm]

How about a Corsair 24 -- trailerable, shallow draft, cabin space suitable for weekend trips for 2.

Bruce

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Heh Heh, C-scow...now there's a handfull to sail. I used to put Hobie 16s to shame with them. Nothing like a spinnaker ride in a scow to get the blood pumping. .

WHAaa?!?
You're not talking about the little cats like the SolCat I used to fly on the bay are you, or was its skipper trippin' or something?

 

[Henning]

WHAaa?!?
You're not talking about the little cats like the SolCat I used to fly on the bay are you, or was its skipper trippin' or something?

No no, scows are not cats, although they do have a shallow rounded W shaped bottom. You have 2 dagger/lee boards and typically a tall high aspect fractional rig. This is a new Melges one I believe, but they have been around a long time.



The E-scow is even bigger and has a slightly more pronounced tunnel.

 

[gismo]

No no, scows are not cats, although they do have a shallow rounded W shaped bottom. You have 2 dagger/lee boards and typically a tall high aspect fractional rig. This is a new Melges one I believe, but they have been around a long time.

I think Dave meant that a Hobie 16 ought to be pretty tough to beat in a C-scow which is probably true unless the wind is light and/or you are beating upwind.

It's been long time since I was in any scow (I think aluminum masts were just coming out), but I used to crew on E's (28 ft) in Michigan and got a ride (what a ride) in an A (35 ft) once. One of my most memorable times in the E was when the wind switched just before the start making it a fast broad reach across the line. The boat I was in got rammed clear through by another, right about where I was sitting.

 

[Henning]

I think Dave meant that a Hobie 16 ought to be pretty tough to beat in a C-scow which is probably true unless the wind is light and/or you are beating upwind.

That is exactly how I put them to shame, that and an intimate knowledge of the winds on Newport Harbor. I'd get so far ahead of them working up the harbor, they could never catch me on the way down. There was a lift on the very eastern side of the harbour between Lido Isl and the PCH shore that I could ride all the way to the end closehauled if I was willing to skim within a few feet of the docks/docked boats (I was). The cats couldn't hold the point so they had to tack up the channel, and as we know, they don't tack well in typical SoCal light airs. Heading back down the chute on a broad reach gave me more than enough that by the time I was back to the # 2 bouy, they were still halfway down the bay.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The cats couldn't hold the point so they had to tack up the channel, and as we know, they don't tack well in typical SoCal light airs. quote]

First thing to learn in light air when comin'about is to backwind the jib on any stiff turning cat, if you're looking for speed. Those PIX look like fast, semi-planing monohulls but, it would seem to me that that type boat against cats of equal length, to have beaten them you would have been out techniqueing them and/or out nerving their skippers not out boating them still, they are good skills to win races. Maybe they weren't drinking enough Cutty Sark either.

 

[Bill]

and got a ride (what a ride) in an A (35 ft) once.

One of our members has an A that he gets out now and then, and yes, THAT is a ride.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

too small for me to call a pocket cruiser, just not enough room to do anything but get out of the rain.
<snip>
Want a trailerable all weather cruiser?

I've been on a sailboat ONCE in my life--an all day trip around Puget Sound, up to the San Juans and back. Was one of my fondest memories, of course, the ground kept moving for days when I got back--even while laying in bed, I could feel the up and down swells! (Didn't get sick, so it wasn't that!)

Anyway, please explain the term "pocket cruiser" if you would; I'm interested in learning more.

 

[Henning]

I've been on a sailboat ONCE in my life--an all day trip around Puget Sound, up to the San Juans and back. Was one of my fondest memories, of course, the ground kept moving for days when I got back--even while laying in bed, I could feel the up and down swells! (Didn't get sick, so it wasn't that!)

Anyway, please explain the term "pocket cruiser" if you would; I'm interested in learning more.

A "cruising" boat is one in which you go places...slowly. To be able to do that you need shelter, berthing, a galley, a head and some storage space. It should be designed and constructed seaworthy in such a fashion that it can protect its occupants in times of trouble. It's been put forward that the guage of a vessels seaworthyness is it's ability to take care of it's crew when the crew can no longer take care of it. There is more than a small measure of truth in that. The term "Pocket Cruiser" refers to the smallest boats available that meet those criteria. Now they are somewhat flexible crieria base on the conditions possible, obviously a boat crossing an ocean will require more space for storage and encounter potential conditions than a boat used on a lake or coastaly. Then there is the level of ammenity that the occupants require, that is widely flexible as well.

 

[bbchien]

At the bottom end you have the island pacet 35. At the top end you have the Hinckley Souwester series. Made in Maine out of.....WOOD. And your gumps will look right!

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/
These are the among the most seaworthy of the sailing cruisers. If you need to ask for price, you need not apply.

Now being built by Henry's second son, the only one of the four who had both shipwright and business sense.

 

[Henning]

At the bottom end you have the island pacet 35. At the top end you have the Hinckley Souwester series. Made in Maine out of.....WOOD. And your gumps will look right!

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/
These are the among the most seaworthy of the sailing cruisers. If you need to ask for price, you need not apply.

Now being built by Henry's second son, the only one of the four who had both shipwright and business sense.

Hinkleys are nice, but this is my entry level sailboat:


A Cherubini 48. 'bout my minimum for a new boat. The boats I'd really like to have ar Olinka or Chubasco. They are two beautiful old Sparky Steves that live(d) in Newport Beach, around 60 some feet on the waterline. If it's gonna be home, you're gonna spend lots of time aboard, wood is the only way. There was another old Fife schooner that lived there that I sailed a couple time in races, forget the name started with an A. She was made from all teak in Scotland.

I'm holding out for a J-boat though, and not a plastic one, Shamrock would do nicely, I sailed her a couple years ago, pretty sweet.

Edit: Astor was the name of the old Fife. Sheesh, I must be gtting old...

 

[SCCutler]

I am very confused.

Y'all have talked (written) about all these boats, without once mentioning how much horsepower and how many engines.

And another thing.

All these pictures you are posting have these boats with a bunch of laundry hanging on 'em? Whatta ragged mess!

...too confusing!

/s/ Spike (whose grandfather was a naval architect...)

 

[bbchien]

The old Sparkman & Stevens designs....wowza. Deep, Deep wineglass hull profile, seven foot keel moment, small "flailing mastproof windows", really tight cabins, truly waterworthy.

As a contrast I once took a Hunter 35 out into the gulfstream to Hamilton. Man, that was a chore. Whadda pounding!

Y'all have talked (written) about all these boats, without once mentioning how much horsepower and how many engines.

!!! You need the engine for maneuvering in the harbor, or for pointing in 30 foot seas when you are reefed to save your mast(s). What you really need is the propane operated systems for refrigeration, cooking and desalination. The hull speeds of these things (even with infinite power) are usually about seven knots, that's right, read it and weep. But the will take you around the south 40s safely, if you are in shape, and well prepared. Whatta ride!

 

[Henning]

You need the engine for maneuvering in the harbor, or for pointing in 30 foot seas when you are reefed to save your mast(s). What you really need is the propane operated systems for refrigeration, cooking and desalination. The hull speeds of these things (even with infinite power) are usually about seven knots, that's right, read it and weep. But the will take you around the south 40s safely, if you are in shape, and well prepared. Whatta ride!

I gotta get you out and teach you how to really sail a boat Bruce. I used to back Ranger, a 113' 1914 Burger schooner into her slip under sail. I even did it with the Coast Guard inspector on board. That was after we ran the MOB drill under sail. That was the funniest. He threw the throwable over and yelled "man Overboard Starboard side. I fell off, my crew trimming sails and he asked, "Aren't you going to drop sail and start the engine?" "What, and waste all that time and have a prop spinning with a man in the water?" I tacked and dropped under, luffed up and called for the main staysl' to be backed, as we drifted up to a stop one of the crew put over the ladder, stepped down as the ladder just drifted up to the cushion and picked it up. Back winded the jib to port for a moment to fall off and we were trimmed under full sail a moment later. Less than 3 minutes. I told the guy I don't need to start my engine except for leaving the dock. As we were coming back to the dock up the Cerritos channel, the wind was blowing straight into our slip, and the inspector goes "well, it looks like you're gonna have to start the engine now" I just grinned at him and kept sailing on a beam reach, called for the luff a few boat lengths out, turned the boat up at the Matson dock and called for all sails to back. (this was a long practiced manuver in this boat by us all. To the continued aggravation of the owner who did not want us sailing the boat into the dock. The move was always continued, because it assured us of killer tips) We stopped and strted backing, I handled the rudder and called out easing and hardening orders for the various sails. As the stern cleared into the muth of the slip I called for all luff and to drop the sails. Fwd mid spring went to the dock and we snugged in nicely. I looked at the inspector and used the Lennon line "Thank You and I hope we passed the audition." The inspector smiled, shook his head and said "I don't believe it."

BTW, Ranger would work to weather at 9+ kts with the board down and would work off the wind at over 13 with the spinnaker and gollywobbler pumping.

 

[Andy Greever]

I've read in Good old Boat magazine that the Montgomery's are well built boats. Try to buy new if you can, and then take good care of her.

Fair winds and following seas.

 

[Bill]

Hinkleys are nice, but this is my entry level sailboat:

I like (on paper) the Alerion series, good looks, modern underbody, look to be nice, fun boats.

http://www.alerionexpress.net/id69.html

Scroll down to see the line.

 

[Dan Smith]

I like (on paper) the Alerion series, good looks, modern underbody, look to be nice, fun boats.

http://www.alerionexpress.net/id69.html

Scroll down to see the line.

We really like those too, but cost is an issue here.

Dan

 

[Bill]

We really like those too, but cost is an issue here.

Roger that!

 

[Dan Smith]

The deed is done. Last weekend we ended up buying the daysailer version of the Typhoon (you were right, Adam). The Weekender is equipped with a cabin with berths, but all the folks we talked to said it's just to tight to really want to sleep in them, and they end up being just a place to store too much junk. The daysailer trades them off for a larger, more comfortable cockpit, and if you really want to overnight you can just camp out there. Since the vast majority of our use would be daysailing anyway, this seemed like a good choice.

Here's the info on the model, and some pictures. Not the actual boat we bought, but it looks about the same.

http://www.capedory.org/specs/typhoon.htm

http://www.nelsonsailingcenter.com/snapshot_ty.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhest09/sets/1015008/show/

Thanks for all the comments and advice!

Dan

 

[NC Pilot]

The Cape Dory Typhoon would be my choice of the two, but really both are too small for me to call a pocket cruiser, just not enough room to do anything but get out of the rain.

Want a neat and fun trailerable? shallow draft? Fast too (won the freakin Trans Pac)? Hobie 33.
View attachment 5894

Want a trailerable all weather cruiser? Slow though, Nor'Sea 27.
View attachment 5895

Having sailed and trailered a Hobie 33 I can say for a fact that it is not easily trailered. Takes about 1 hour to get the boat both on and off the trailer.

The Nor'Sea 27 is also a monster to trailer. Takes a minimum of a 3/4 ton pickup to move around.