Sagetech Clarity ADS Receiver

Flying_Nun

Flying_Nun

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Flying_Nun
I'm interested in these devices. Has anyone used one or checked them out at OSH?
 
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Foreflight has indicated they have NO plans on supporting the Sagetech. It seems the connection between Foreflight and Appareo is deep enough that Foreflight likely won't support any competitive products for ADS-B. The Dual AV guys said they sent an XGPS170 to Foreflight for evaluation but don't hold out hope since Foreflight is inclined to push the Stratus because of business tie-ins.
 
Mike I said:
Foreflight has indicated they have NO plans on supporting the Sagetech. It seems the connection between Foreflight and Appareo is deep enough that Foreflight likely won't support any competitive products for ADS-B. The Dual AV guys said they sent an XGPS170 to Foreflight for evaluation but don't hold out hope since Foreflight is inclined to push the Stratus because of business tie-ins.
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Yeah I talked to the Dual folks too. I thought it was sad they had what looked like a nice little box and no software partners yet.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah I talked to the Dual folks too. I thought it was sad they had what looked like a nice little box and no software partners yet.
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It seems both the Sage and Dual devices work with WingX, i1000 and a few others...but neither with FF.

Are there standard data transport formats for ADS-B data, like NMEA for GPS? Or is everything proprietary after it hits the receiver?
 
Mike I said:
It seems both the Sage and Dual devices work with WingX, i1000 and a few others...but neither with FF.

Are there standard data transport formats for ADS-B data, like NMEA for GPS? Or is everything proprietary after it hits the receiver?
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I talked to a few vendors at OSH. Everything is proprietary, and seems to be getting more so. There is nothing that works on both FF and WingX at this time or that anyone was hinting at.

I bought the Stratus at the show, but I really didn't like having to commit to a single software package. The cost of changing is now too high for my liking.

Interestingly, though, I find that I can get ADS-B on the ground at home. Seems like there's an uplink station just a few miles away in Naperville.
 
MickYoumans said:
Their website says they do not start shipping until Sept 30th. I'm interested in one too.
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Missed the part about when they would ship. Know they've been available for order for a couple of weeks.

Regarding the Dual box, did they give any indication about cost? Last time I checked there was nothing on their site. I've got the 150 and like it well enough.
 
Flying_Nun said:
Missed the part about when they would ship. Know they've been available for order for a couple of weeks.

Regarding the Dual box, did they give any indication about cost? Last time I checked there was nothing on their site. I've got the 150 and like it well enough.
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$799. Same as Stratus.
 
Mike I said:
$799. Same as Stratus.
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Went back to the Dual web site and found it buried in the FAQs. Also found that they will be offering some sort of trade-up program if you own a 150.
 
Flying_Nun said:
Went back to the Dual web site and found it buried in the FAQs. Also found that they will be offering some sort of trade-up program if you own a 150.
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I saw that upgade option. I also have the Dual 150 and like everything about it. If the new 170 is in the same league it would be a logical step for me. Naviator says they will be compatible with the Dual.
 
Having spent 20 years in the HMI software industry, starting when the industry was in its absolute infancy, I think I understand what some of the challenges are here.

In the early days of the HMI software industry, there were about 10 major PLC systems that required software drivers developed and they were almost all unique protocols. There were probably several dozen more devices and protocols that were much more obscure. The connectivity challenge was compounded by the fact that there were several different operating systems in those days.

I fully expect that the connectivity challenge for companies like Foreflight and WingX will have an effect on who turns out to be the defacto standard in this market although I have a hunch who the winner will be.

I have lots of empathy for these guys with a limited market, trying to develop drivers for various hardware items. It takes lots of time and money to develop, integrate, test and support each device. It's often a tough decision which one to support and which one to put on the back burner. Business relationships with various vendors certainly plays into it, but there are always limited resources and limited markets for each variation. A really good crystal ball helps, but is rarely available.

I expect that after ADS-B technology has had a chance to work its way into the picture, that some protocol standards will emerge making the driver development burden for these companies ease if not go away.

When chosing your software products and ancillary devices and technologies, do your best to saddle up a horse that has a good chance to be in the race for the long term. This is easy to recommend, but DIFFICULT to accomplish. I saw technologies that looked rock solid with good companies behind them, go by the wayside.

My $0.02,
 
I'll give my $$$ to the first one that garners the support of both ForeFlight and Garmin and works on my iPad and my Nexus 7!
 
Right on Loren.

A software manufacturer requiring an exclusive with a hardware manufacturer is a sticky tactic, for their benefit only. It has been too easy to fire FF and hire WingX, etc., and binding hardware to their software platforms will make that option cost prohibitive.

We should think twice before buying hardware that will only work with one software product. It will promote poor quality in the long run.
 
Mike I said:
It seems both the Sage and Dual devices work with WingX, i1000 and a few others...but neither with FF.

Are there standard data transport formats for ADS-B data, like NMEA for GPS? Or is everything proprietary after it hits the receiver?
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There are standards for certifiable transponders, UATs and FAA rebroadcast, but not for any specific software interface for consumer electronics.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Right on Loren.

A software manufacturer requiring an exclusive with a hardware manufacturer is a sticky tactic, for their benefit only. It has been too easy to fire FF and hire WingX, etc., and binding hardware to their software platforms will make that option cost prohibitive.

We should think twice before buying hardware that will only work with one software product. It will promote poor quality in the long run.
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Aviation consumers have been buying within that model for years. Just ask Garmin.

The reality is that FIS-B and TIS-B provide the same information to all receivers, so the point of differentiation becomes the software. Picking a software package based on the hardware is exactly backwards. The hardware is a commodity, the software does the work.


JKG
 
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JohnAJohnson said:
Right on Loren.

A software manufacturer requiring an exclusive with a hardware manufacturer is a sticky tactic, for their benefit only. It has been too easy to fire FF and hire WingX, etc., and binding hardware to their software platforms will make that option cost prohibitive.

We should think twice before buying hardware that will only work with one software product. It will promote poor quality in the long run.
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You are exactly right. You do that and you limit your market size. I can't imagine Foreflight doing anything to limit their market size.

You are correct about the software AS LONG AS the hardware platform is not one that will go away while the software is not ported to the alternative or the replacement hardware platform.
 
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JGoodish said:
Aviation consumers have been buying within that model for years. Just ask Garmin.

The reality is that FIS-B and TIS-B provide the same information to all receivers, so the point of differentiation becomes the software. Picking a software package based on the hardware is exactly backwards. The hardware is a commodity, the software does the work.


JKG
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What you elude to with Garmin is different than what Foreflight and WingX are dealing with.

In technology company development there are several steps that must be made. The first is "Crossing the Chasm," which involves developing the product and the market to a point where they are widely accepted. The final step is "On Main Street," where the technology is the defacto standard and is mature. Garmin is on "Main Street." FF and WingX are in the process of "Crossing the Chasm."
 
MBDiagMan said:
What you elude to with Garmin is different than what Foreflight and WingX are dealing with.

In technology company development there are several steps that must be made. The first is "Crossing the Chasm," which involves developing the product and the market to a point where they are widely accepted. The final step is "On Main Street," where the technology is the defacto standard and is mature. Garmin is on "Main Street." FF and WingX are in the process of "Crossing the Chasm."
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I'm not talking about market position, but about the practice of tying an application to proprietary hardware. To my knowledge, there was never a time when Garmin did not do that and, for that matter, the same is true of their present and historical competitors.

Regarding portable ADS-B and tablet apps, Garmin most certain is not "On Main Street," they are behind. Whether they will catch up or become a market leader in this area remains to be seen.

In the case of ForeFlight vs. WingX, I don't see an advantage of one over the other when it comes to hardware. If there is one, the advantage probably goes to ForeFlight, which is more tightly integrated with Stratus and (if you want hardware independence) can also use XM. In either case, if ForeFlight or WingX goes belly-up, you can't take your hardware (Stratus, Clarity, SkyRadar, etc.) to the other, nor will it work with apps like Garmin Pilot, since Garmin has their own ADS-B receiver (which, of course, won't work with anyone else's app).

Ironically, if you want to make an app decision based on hardware, I suppose that the strongest case could be made for Garmin. If they pull the plug on Pilot, or never clean it up, you can always use the GDL39 with one of their portable GPS units.

I don't see anyone out there at the moment who is producing a top-quality, hardware-independent app.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
I'm not talking about market position, but about the practice of tying an application to proprietary hardware. To my knowledge, there was never a time when Garmin did not do that and, for that matter, the same is true of their present and historical competitors.

Regarding portable ADS-B and tablet apps, Garmin most certain is not "On Main Street," they are behind. Whether they will catch up or become a market leader in this area remains to be seen.

In the case of ForeFlight vs. WingX, I don't see an advantage of one over the other when it comes to hardware. If there is one, the advantage probably goes to ForeFlight, which is more tightly integrated with Stratus and (if you want hardware independence) can also use XM. In either case, if ForeFlight or WingX goes belly-up, you can't take your hardware (Stratus, Clarity, SkyRadar, etc.) to the other, nor will it work with apps like Garmin Pilot, since Garmin has their own ADS-B receiver (which, of course, won't work with anyone else's app).

Ironically, if you want to make an app decision based on hardware, I suppose that the strongest case could be made for Garmin. If they pull the plug on Pilot, or never clean it up, you can always use the GDL39 with one of their portable GPS units.

I don't see anyone out there at the moment who is producing a top-quality, hardware-independent app.


JKG
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Yes, the problem is that there is just not a huge market. I agree that the FF/WingX is a wash at this point. I fully expect that one of them will falter or one of them will for some reason take over the market. I wouldn't want to take a bet on which one though. I wouldn't count out Garmin just because they got a late start. In the industry niche that I lived through, the late entry ended up the BIG winner and still pretty much owns their market.

When I was speaking of hardware, I was talking mostly about the hardware platform and opsys that it runs on, not so much the receivers and such. My thinking comes from a different world where there were multiple platforms in the early days, not all of them being inexpensive. The connected devices were varied and THEIR market shares were ever changing in the early days.

With the aviation market we've been discussing, it might very well be the reverse. The hardware/opsys platforms cost less than the GPS receivers and maybe other gadgets that might find their way into the mix. Maybe Garmin will come up with theirs and mature their software offering. It's tough to predict the future. If you're able to do that, you could be quite wealthy.
 
Garmin buys FF or WingX. The other limps along with a small market share or is acquired by Jepp/AOPA/etc.
 
Flying_Nun said:
Garmin buys FF or WingX. The other limps along with a small market share or is acquired by Jepp/AOPA/etc.
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Only one problem with that... They built their own. That means they already decided against that tactic for now.
 
denverpilot said:
Only one problem with that... They built their own. That means they already decided against that tactic for now.
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Actually the Nun might be right, but it is all crystal ball reading. I saw a similar situation in my industry. A HUGE company developed their own, actually two start from scratch attempts, before purchasing a viable product and putting the marketing strength behind it after scrapping their own offerings. They are now in the number two market position.

Foreflight and WingX are very small operations. I don't know the numbers, but my gut says that Garmin could buy either one or both with their pocket change and I expect there has already been such attempts or at least exploratory discussions.
 
Yep, I've seen it happen also. A small company developed market leading tech for troop protection but due to their size and lack of influence they were squeezed out of a lot of government contracts. They then formed a JV with a global player whom eventually bought them outright for the technology even though said global company had developed their own version.
 
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