Runaway Airplane

brien23

brien23

Cleared for Takeoff
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Brien
Aircraft has a dead battery so guy ties the tail of the plane to a 5 gal bucket of cement and hand props the plane. The plane wont start so he advances the throttle and tries again note no one is in the plane only the person hand proping the plane is their. The engine starts and the plane takes off with the bucket of cement behind it into a chain link 3' high fence goes through the fence and stops on a pipe holding a plack. The prop shears off, the plane twists around and takes off the tail hoz. stab and comes to rest ontop of the fence. Question, is this a required reportable incident?:nono:
 
brien23 said:
Aircraft has a dead battery so guy ties the tail of the plane to a 5 gal bucket of cement and hand props the plane. The plane wont start so he advances the throttle and tries again note no one is in the plane only the person hand proping the plane is their. The engine starts and the plane takes off with the bucket of cement behind it into a chain link 3' high fence goes through the fence and stops on a pipe holding a plack. The prop shears off, the plane twists around and takes off the tail hoz. stab and comes to rest ontop of the fence. Question, is this a required reportable incident?:nono:
Click to expand...


Yeah -- should be reported immediately to the Darwin Award Committee.

:mad3:
 
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Great, now I've got the Benny Hill theme song stuck in my head.
 
brien23 said:
Aircraft has a dead battery so guy ties the tail of the plane to a 5 gal bucket of cement and hand props the plane.
Click to expand...


This never ceases to amaze me. Here's an engine that will propel you and your stuff through the air, but you think a 5 gal bucket of something will hold it back?

:mad2:
 
The inherenet dumbness of Pilots, as a race of man, never ceases to amaze me.
 
I met a guy last year here in Iowa who told of hand propping his Fly Baby with the throttle almost all the way forward. He didn't have it tied to anything. He managed to run around the wing and throw himself over the tail beginning a shoe scorching ride around the ramp area. He swore it went on for at least 5 minutes as the plane ran in circles. Eventually, as his shoes wore through, he realized he had to try something so he threw himself over the fuselage and tried to climb on. The moment his feet left the ground the airplane straightened out and began to gain speed, fortunately or unfortunately headed away from the hangers and toward open country. He said it took some kind of adrenaline soaked super human reaction to make one final lunge for the cockpit with what little strength he had left but he managed to reach the throttle and pull it off.

I heard this story on the ramp where it took place as I prepared to hand prop my Fly Baby. I always tie the tail and chock the wheels if I don't have help. The storyteller offered to help and I hesitated because do I want THIS guy helping me?
 
wby0nder said:
I heard this story on the ramp where it took place as I prepared to hand prop my Fly Baby. I always tie the tail and chock the wheels if I don't have help. The storyteller offered to help and I hesitated because do I want THIS guy helping me?
Click to expand...

:yikes:

Yeah, well -- I guess you can figure he's quick enough to dodge out of the way, at least.

:D
 
i bet he feels really dumb and embarassed
 
tonycondon said:
i bet he feels really dumb and embarassed
Click to expand...


He told the story with great humility. You could see the fear in his eyes. As we were standing right where it happened he gestured around this way and that kind of acting it out. It was dang scary. I remember specifically asking him about his shoes and he replied "oh yes, they were wearing through. They were completely ruined". He also said, "it had a nearly full tank of gas so I knew it was going to keep running for quite a while", and, "there was no one else at the airport who could have helped me though there was nothing anyone could have done anyway"
 
dmccormack said:
This never ceases to amaze me. Here's an engine that will propel you and your stuff through the air, but you think a 5 gal bucket of something will hold it back?

:mad2:
Click to expand...
Depends on what engine is involved, and the circumstances. Five gallon bucket so of cement weighs 80 pounds. Rotax two-stroke might have ~150 lbs of thrust at full power; C-85 gets about 300. Eighty pounds of concrete would be more than enough to hold the airplane back at idle power. Or even a bit higher. There's no background in the OP's message, so we don't know if the guy had been propping airplanes all his life or decided to just give it a try. If the former, the guy may have just forgotten to check, and if the latter, he probably just know better.

I flew a starter-less Fly Baby for seven years, and tied the plane down solid for almost every start. One morning, the engine flooded out and I killed the mags and opened the throttle all the way while I cleared it. I forgot to close the throttle, though, and the engine caught at full power when I tried to start it again. Tail was tied down, though, so no harm ('cept to my nerves).

Five gallon bucket of cement would have been plenty to hold the plane on every other start I'd done. The cause of my near-incident was complacency; what saved me was the right habit ingrained several years earlier.

Ron Wanttaja
 
The answer is here

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8020.11B.pdf

this accident was discussed here at great length

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=65035


to quote

d. Aircraft Accident - an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which
takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and until
such time as all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious
injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. All aspects of the exceptions to
substantial damage (see "Substantial Damage") should be considered before making a final
substantial damage determination that would classify the occurrence as an accident.
Page
 
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tonycondon said:
but no one had boarded the aircraft
Click to expand...

I believe the FAA sees it in a different light, he had been aboard, tried to start it for the intended purpose of flight.
 
brien23 said:
Aircraft has a dead battery so guy ties the tail of the plane to a 5 gal bucket of cement and hand props the plane. The plane wont start so he advances the throttle and tries again note no one is in the plane only the person hand proping the plane is their. The engine starts and the plane takes off with the bucket of cement behind it into a chain link 3' high fence goes through the fence and stops on a pipe holding a plack. The prop shears off, the plane twists around and takes off the tail hoz. stab and comes to rest ontop of the fence. Question, is this a required reportable incident?:nono:
Click to expand...

:needpics:
 
Tom-D said:
to quote

d. Aircraft Accident - an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which
takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and until
such time as all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious
injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. All aspects of the exceptions to
substantial damage (see "Substantial Damage") should be considered before making a final
substantial damage determination that would classify the occurrence as an accident.
Page
Click to expand...

tonycondon said:
but no one had boarded the aircraft
Click to expand...

Just curious if you plane is tied down and parked, then someone runs into it, or the hand of Zeus smashes it, or one of the X-men sends a tornado to destroy it, do you still have to report the incident? No one boarded and no one was using the plane.
 
wanttaja said:
Depends on what engine is involved, and the circumstances. Five gallon bucket so of cement weighs 80 pounds. Rotax two-stroke might have ~150 lbs of thrust at full power; C-85 gets about 300. Eighty pounds of concrete would be more than enough to hold the airplane back at idle power. Or even a bit higher. There's no background in the OP's message, so we don't know if the guy had been propping airplanes all his life or decided to just give it a try. If the former, the guy may have just forgotten to check, and if the latter, he probably just know better.

I flew a starter-less Fly Baby for seven years, and tied the plane down solid for almost every start. One morning, the engine flooded out and I killed the mags and opened the throttle all the way while I cleared it. I forgot to close the throttle, though, and the engine caught at full power when I tried to start it again. Tail was tied down, though, so no harm ('cept to my nerves).

Five gallon bucket of cement would have been plenty to hold the plane on every other start I'd done. The cause of my near-incident was complacency; what saved me was the right habit ingrained several years earlier.

Ron Wanttaja
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Sorry Ron, but I have to disagree.

The point of the tail tie down is IN CASE the power is excessive.

My 65 hp (barely) airplane will not roll with power at idle (no brakes, no chocks) on pavement. It certainly won't roll on grass at idle.

But I tie the tail down every time I prop solo in case the throttle is in more that I thought, or there's some other reaons the engine revs fast enough to cause the airplane to move.
 
dmccormack said:
Sorry Ron, but I have to disagree.

The point of the tail tie down is IN CASE the power is excessive.

My 65 hp (barely) airplane will not roll with power at idle (no brakes, no chocks) on pavement. It certainly won't roll on grass at idle.

But I tie the tail down every time I prop solo in case the throttle is in more that I thought, or there's some other reaons the engine revs fast enough to cause the airplane to move.
Click to expand...

I fully 100% agree with you and I tie the tail down too when I am solo propping, so I am just being dumb here. But I am jealous of your engine if you can rev it ANYTHING over idle for at least a few minutes after starting it while this cold natured beast warms up... :D If I just look at mine with the thought of cracking the throttle immediately after starting she'll choke down.
 
Technically, it's not an aircraft accident, since nobody had boarded, so no report to the NTSB is required. However, the FSDO would love to have it reported to them.
 
bigred177 said:
I fully 100% agree with you and I tie the tail down too when I am solo propping, so I am just being dumb here. But I am jealous of your engine if you can rev it ANYTHING over idle for at least a few minutes after starting it while this cold natured beast warms up... :D If I just look at mine with the thought of cracking the throttle immediately after starting she'll choke down.
Click to expand...


That's funny you say that because the Lycoming Operator's Manual states the engine is "Warm enough for full throttle" when the "throttle can be advanced without skipping of backfiring."

haven't had backfires but it needs about 2-3 minutes at 600-800 RPM before it can be advanced to >1000 RPM smoothly.

That said -- on a restart or in warm ambient temps, it could be started wide open and I guarantee it would move unless tied down.
 
Sometimes the wrong help is worse than no help. I soloed in the 50's at 16 and had my PPL at 17. A buddy asked if I would give his girl a ride---he'd pay the rent!

I couldn't pass this up so I rented a C 140 and went over to Lockheed Air Terminal in Burbank to pick up Mary. With Mary in the right seat and Jerry watching I pulled the starter and had nothing---deader then a doornail.

Since Jerry was an auto shop major and understood engines I put him in the left seat, cracked the throttle and instructed him to hold the brakes on, wheel back and wait for me to come around and relieve him after I propped it.

As soon as the engine started, Jerry jammed the throttle full on and the plane started dragging the brakes. I grabbed a strut but could only make it go in a circle. After a turn or so the wing hit a post and really dented the leading edge. I was left to deal with the FBO. I was only 17 and owed them a bundle.:mad3:

I worked after school as a lineboy and mechanic's helper to pay them off. I actually worked enough hours to be well over what I owed then and flew the extra money off :D

There is an annual all school picnic in Burbank. Last year Jerry and Mary were there---still there High School Sweethearts in their 70's. I enjoyed reminding Jerry of the incident. To this day I don't know why he touched the throttle.

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
2AZ1
www.indianhillsairpark.com
Click to expand...
 
pmanton said:
There is an annual all school picnic in Burbank. Last year Jerry and Mary were there---still there High School Sweethearts in their 70's. I enjoyed reminding Jerry of the incident. To this day I don't know why he touched the throttle.
http://www.indianhillsairpark.com
Click to expand...

I would say to impress Mary !

Great story.
 
dmccormack said:
Sorry Ron, but I have to disagree.

The point of the tail tie down is IN CASE the power is excessive.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree. I would have never routinely used a free mass like that to tie the airplane down, because of the potential (realized at one point) that the throttle might not be at idle.

In my ~7 years on the prototype Fly Baby without a starter, there were only two cases where I hand-propped the airplane without tying it down. Once was actually *on* the runway (engine went to sleep on final on a 15-degree day); the other time was at a private strip where homeowner wasn't there and there wasn't anything to tie to. If there'd been a five-gallon bucket full of cement nearby, dern tootin' I would have used it.

But it's a seductive trap someone could fall into. The weight *will* hold the airplane...on a routine start. But like any other safety shortcut, though, the more you get away with it, the more casual you get. Then there's the ONE time you forget to retard the throttle....

The only thing is, from the cursory description of this case, this probably wasn't a case of someone getting bit by a long-time bad habit. The description was that the plane's battery was dead, which makes it sound like the guy didn't routinely hand-prop.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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Here's another: (sigh)

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 9133H Make/Model: C172 Description: 172, P172, R172, Skyhawk, Hawk XP, Cutla
Date: 12/30/2010 Time: 2212

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: ANGWIN State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT WHILE HAND-PROPPING TO START ENGINE, AIRCRAFT STARTED AND RAN INTO
A PARKED VEHICLE, ANGWIN, CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Other Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: SACRAMENTO, CA (WP25) Entry date: 01/03/2011
 
wby0nder said:
I met a guy last year here in Iowa who told of hand propping his Fly Baby with the throttle almost all the way forward. He didn't have it tied to anything. He managed to run around the wing and throw himself over the tail beginning a shoe scorching ride around the ramp area. He swore it went on for at least 5 minutes as the plane ran in circles. Eventually, as his shoes wore through, he realized he had to try something so he threw himself over the fuselage and tried to climb on. The moment his feet left the ground the airplane straightened out and began to gain speed, fortunately or unfortunately headed away from the hangers and toward open country. He said it took some kind of adrenaline soaked super human reaction to make one final lunge for the cockpit with what little strength he had left but he managed to reach the throttle and pull it off.

I heard this story on the ramp where it took place as I prepared to hand prop my Fly Baby. I always tie the tail and chock the wheels if I don't have help. The storyteller offered to help and I hesitated because do I want THIS guy helping me?
Click to expand...

For some reason, when I read this, the picture in my mind immediately framed the scene as something that would be seen in Disney's "A Goofy Movie".
 
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